Misshalfway

I think humans are tremendously and wonderfully complex. What do they say....we only use 10% of our brain capacity??? I just can't believe that we are just the product of an earthy process. I think the idea that we lived before we came to this earth and learned and progressed in that sphere is a much more likely scenerio. I know it can't be proven. Neither can the existence of God. But I think there are evidences that do leave lots of room for the existence of a master creator. I look at my kids. I look....or listen :) to you brilliant people. All the genius and creativity in the world. And I stand in awe at all of it! Scientists included!!! God is a much more logical source of all of that wonderfulness to me. The grand canyon alone! Or wonder of a little bug! Ever watch that DVD "Planet Earth"? This to me is absolutely evidence of divine creation. And then after experiencing the wonder and even magic of experiencing pregnancy and childbirth....I am even more convinced. Evolution, while I see the evidence of it in nature, just isn't sufficient enough of an explanation.

I think anyone with half a brain can see thru all the rhetoric. Living in America, we have all been schmoozed so much with all of the advertising and such. I think that you are right that more people should be responsible about what they choose to believe. I think it is wrong when people are misled because of someones crooked agenda. I feel that way about the church. I wish, at least, that people would dismiss it on its honest merits rather than believing lies and propaganda. I think science is wonderful. I don't know where we would be without it. I think that it has its limits,but on the balance does a pretty good job explaining our planet and our bodies and our varied environments. I think that everyone could benefit by the gift of the Holy Ghost because once you have the gift and you righteously nurture it, you can determine truth as it is presented to you. Often I hear or learn things and I know I am not smart enough to know one way or the other. But the spirit leads me to listen to certain things and dismiss others on a variety of subjects.

Just so you know, most people join the LDS faith. Many are born into it..... but many are not. It is the responsibility of every member to find out the truth for themselves. We are taught and encouraged to do so. I see also in your previous posts, that you question ones ability to feel the spirit and determine that it is in fact from God. I understand that concern. It is a valid one and worthy of much discussion. And I had better end my comments there, or Kona might have my head for hijacking.

This is an interesting observation that you seem to share with the Latter-day saints. We thank all those early individuals who went to such lengths to preserve the words of God. We are glad to have those early texts to refer to. Where would we be without them? And what of all the people who benefitted from those early protestants who helped but the word into the hands of the common man. Tremendous efforts!!! We believe that God has spoken to man and caused them to write his word as well. We believe this happen in more than one location. Prophets on the American continent also wrote God's words on gold plates and stored them in hidden locations. In the case of the BofM, it was passed from prophet to prophet and then deposited in a stone box. It was hidden there until Joseph was led to it and commanded to translate it.

Vent away! It is all good.

Wait until you get the answers. Then you will know. And I will pass the lemonade!

How is this different than "once saved always saved". If hell is only for the unbelievers, then the bible doesn't make much sense to me. Not everyone that believes will be saved. The Lord makes that clear. (And i know I should quote the dang verse. You all will have to forgive me this time round.) And just for the record, I hear hell a lot from lots of pulpits. I am sad to hear that only nonbelievers are subject to it. What are the consequences for the un-obedient believers if not hell? They just get a free pass......and will sin every day but it is ok cuz they believe? Yes, we are all fallen. Thus the Savior. He literally brings us out of a fallen state. He justifies us yes, cleanses us yes.....but he does more than that. He, thru our cooperation, makes us fit to live in the presence of God again because when we obey, as He does, we won't sin. Obedience keeps us just as clean as repentance does.

I think I can see what you are trying to say. I hope you can see that we are really not that different. I am trying to interpret your terminology correctly, so forgive me if I don't get it spot on. Justification. Yes. We believe this concept too. It happens for us, at baptism. Isn't this similar to being born again? or becoming converted to Christ? Sanctification. Yes. We believe in this process as well. For us, we are sanctified and cleansed at baptism. We are given a new heart and a fresh start as our sins are cleansed and we are made clean. But sanctication for us is a process that continues beyond baptism as our natures are refined. It is thru the deliberate righteous and correct choices that we make in all areas of our lives that help us to become refined. This process is at the core of the Grace of our Lord. Because I can choose.....but I can't sanctify myself. That is his gift. And because God follows eternal law, if I obey, he must follow with the blessing. Logic follows the other direction as well -- God can sanctify and save, but he won't until I choose him. Glorification....it sounds like you are saying what we call exhaltation. We believe that basically salvation and Exhaltation are the same thing. We believe that there are degrees to salvation that are only granted after this life. Part of salvation is resurrection. THis gift is for every single soul without exception. But there is a spiritual salvation that will be determined by judgement according our works....whatevery they were. This will happen for every soul. Then a just salvation will be granted. That is why we sometimes struggle with the phrase "I got saved" because it implies that God has made his final decision about a soul long before the judgement day. That is why we prefer the term born again or sometimes we simplify it even more by referring to membership. I think we are basically saying the same thing. I feel like there is a discrepancy in your description. Perhaps you can explain. I hear you....and others say that we will be judged according to our choices. In my mind, choices and works are the same thing. I think that God gives commandments. I think he expects us to obey. Particularly if we have experienced spiritual manifestations in our lives. With more knowledge comes more responsibility. When you say that a person can't earn salvation. I see what you are saying. And I too feel a great reverence for the Grace of God! But, I don't understand how one can be saved and need judgement at the same time. Perhaps the concepts we believe are closer than the words we choose to use to explain them. I think that without commandments clearly laid out for the children of men to follow, confusion then spreads. I think there is much in the way of confusion in the Christian world. I think there is much in the way of variety in definition of what the Lord expects. I feel confused when I hear that I must be saved.....but then must choose correctly or I will go to hell.....but that I can't earn my salvation because I am not suppose to do works....but if I don't do good works then I am evil. Do you see my confusion? Prolly not explaining it well. Hmph! I get that at conversion, the nature changes. But I don't see that the process makes one perfect. What better than a requirement to obey is there to keep the children of men in the right way? And if a person is saved, but does sin, what are his consequences? How can he be unclean and achieve salvation? he would have to repent and restore obedience. Would he not?

Ha ha ha! Good point.

All the more reason for the need of revelation from God. Everyone has an agenda. And where there isn't an agenda there is limited understanding. And I must say that praying to God is much more efficient than going to school for decades and reading long winded, hardly understandable science books. Which is really good for people like me who don't have scientific wiring!! I can kneel, ask, and receive. God is my Father. He created me. He told me so. And I believe. See? Simple. So the rest of the world can go on and on about creationism and or evolution. And I can sit back with my perfect knowledge sipping on a lemonade.

You guys are just like Lehi. God is moving you to the promised land. This just may be your short stay in the tent camped by the shore of something wonderful. I'll keep you in my prayers!

It is all good. The computer is a tough form of communication. We can't see each others faces. I think from the LDS point of view, the act of asking Christ to come into your life is an act or a work. And keeping Him in your life takes constant discipline. We too believe that all are sinners. We too believe that Christ died on the cross. I think we both acknowledge that their is some requirement for the Atonement to take effect in a person's life. I think that "saved by Grace" theology and LDS theology differ as to what exactly those requirements are. I have been in this same conversation many times. And it basically boils down to that question. There are lots of misunderstandings about what LDS beliefs are and what they mean. There are many inside of the Christian denominations that believe different parts of our teachings. We believe baptism is essential. I believe the Baptists do too. It is difficult for me to understand "saved by grace" philosophy because it seems to omit many of the Lord's actions and commandments to the Apostles. Baptism is a good example of that. It also confuses me when I hear that Hell is preached from many pulpits. The fear of hell and the abomination of sin. If all are that are saved are cleansed and don't commit sin anymore, then why are there such preachings and such fear of condemnation? It seems to me that what you call being "Saved", we equate with our experience at baptism -- being Born again. What you call the righteous expression after being saved we believe too. We just believe that those are choices that we make every day and that they come because our hearts have been changed but that we are constantly learning and trying to master the "natural man" or our sinful, human parts. We believe that thru the process of obedience... and application of the gospel and all of its ordinances will help us transform and progress. To us coming to Christ is more than just becoming clean. It is about progression and perfection oneself thru Christ. We believe that we are held responsible for those choices. Do you believe that God holds men responsible for choices????

There is a lot of issues on the table. I think they need someone to blame and I am an easy target. I am pretty good at calling a spade a spade, and speaking that honestly just isn't done. Neither is asking them to respect boundaries. Those things aren't Christlike and so therefore.....I am next on their list to be flogged! J/K. It has been a cold war the last two years. Lots of denial about the underlying problems and about the new problems that have arisen as the old problems have surfaced. I know a lot of people struggle with the spouses their kids choose. I just thought they loved me for 8 years. Come to find out it was that surface stuff. Their real feelings have come out and it didn't feel very good to hear. Nor did it feel very good to have untruths spread to the far winds. But I guess there are a lot of people who deal with stuff like that. I am learning to let go of my wishes for something different. We got an email the other day telling us in a round about way that we were bad parents because we didn't do what the MIL wanted. It is getting quite exhausting and doesn't look like there is an end in sight. We have tried to many times and in a variety of different ways to move to forgiveness and peace. My apologies are either ignored or I am told that I am lying. What is a girl to do? It is painful. And very sad. It is like they need to continue the belief that I am the enemy. It seems to justify them. I think getting honest about their participation is too threatening for them.

I was gonna comment on this one too. I think it is a common misbelief that Joseph Smith "wrote" the Book of Mormon. He translated it. In truth the Book of Mormon has multiple authors -- people who lived and recorded their spiritual teachings in the Americas. The book itself is a compilation of many records spread over many hundreds of years....before and after the coming of Jesus...that were extracted from larger records and put together by a man named Mormon. Thus the name of the book and our familiar nick-name. It is a testimony....another testament....of Jesus Christ. It was written under the direction of God and sealed up or hidden until the time was right for the record to come forth. It wasn't meant to replace the Bible. It was meant to help man understand it more clearly and to convince man to come to Christ. Please understand that Joseph was commanded by God to translate the record....orginally engraved on golden plates or thin metal pages....into English. One of my favorite verses is found on the last page of the book. It is an invitation given by a man named Moroni....Mormon's son. He says, 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. 33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. 34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen. * VERSE 1 (ABOUT A.D. 421). (Moroni 10)

I can understand why you might feel a little disturbed. The reaction of some to dismiss evolution all together perhaps seems too extreme. I think that some feel that the doctrine of evolution eliminates God and His ability to create man. I am not sure that is what the evidence of evolution is saying. I do think that is what some of its interpretations are leading some to believe and I think that alarms people of faith. I for one believe in evolution......at least in principle. I am not convinced that every conclusion that is made as a result of the evidence is accurate. I think God uses evolution as one of his creative tools. But it isn't the only one. I think that closing ones mind to other possibilities just because we don't see all the evidence of it, is all just as much of an exaggerated response as the above. This is actually one of the reasons I love the LDS church so much. Science is viewed as a harmonious part of earth life and religious understanding. To us it helps us to understand God and the world he created. It is all about truth and finding truth in all of its areas.

Kona, You ARE a tremendous individual! What a thing to say -- and what a beautiful way to say it. No one can convince me that humility weakens a human. You stand so very tall today! And I am touched. .....And a little thank you to Loudmouth for lightening the mood. I am so glad God made funny people.

You say "in all due respect"..... I am not sure you understand that while your argument is interesting, your tone is disrespectful. I don't expect everyone to believe what I believe just because I explain it to them. But when someone comes and asks for an honest answer, I suppose I expect that it should be received with a spirit of genuine respect. Not the searching thru my words to find ammunition for proving ones rightness. I believe, as do LDS people, that salvation comes from and thru the Lord Jesus Christ. Your above description chooses to eliminate that fact. We do believe as other posters have beautifully stated, that faith and works are required of God BEFORE he grants his salvation. It is a salvation that is His to give. I can do nothing of myself to earn it. But that does not mean God does not expect and require my obedience. It is an issue of obedience NOT earning. I hope you can see the difference. I won't share with you my experience with the sacred and powerful books of the Bible with which you refer. I think I will save that for a more equitable conversation.

I am not sure I really understand the argument here. Jesus is the only begotton....or only physically born child of God the Father. All the rest of us and all the earth and its many creations are also created of God. But Jesus is Special. He became flesh, but also is absolutely divine. Sounds like both sides are saying the same thing. The only question I see is whether or not Jesus was created. We (i am LDS) believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate beings. We believe Jesus is the creator of this world. We believe He did this under the direction of the Father. We believe that all mankind are literally the spirit children of God the Father and lived with him in spirit form before we came to earth. Jesus was there as we all were there. We knew God and Jesus and knew we would be leaving for a short experience on earth and that we would die and return to Him after our experience was over to report and be judged. We had two problems with earth life. Sin and death. We couldn't return to Father without those two obstacles being removed. Jesus performed the task of paying for our sins and overcoming death. You are wrong by believing that LDS people believe that they can earn salvation. Our Lord and Savior performed what we could not and thru his absolute grace and mercy, we can each receive the forgiveness and cleansing necessary to return to Father in Heaven. What is often characterized as "earning salvation" is our belief that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is not completely free. All, no matter what their actions or station on earth was be literally resurrected. Everyone will receive a physical body. But to overcome sin, there are requirements. Faith, Repentance, Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are necessary components for ones sins to be washed away. At the time of baptism, a person covenants or promises to be obedient to the commandments of God. We are then clean and members of the Lord's fold....but must continue in obedience and repentance thru-out our lives. After our lives, we will meet Father in Heaven again and be judged according to our knowledge and stewardship. Then a just reward will be given. All will be saved, but not all will be exalted. None of us can do anything of ourselves. We MUST have the Savior to accomplish anything. But our efforts and dedications are also important to the Lord. He requires that we try and he gives us knowledge and commandments and consequences to help us learn. It is up to us to choose. It is the one gift that is ours alone to give. We give our will and our lives and our sins to him, and we become clean and new and them he, thru our obedience, transforms our natures into the Christ-like. Mary was especially chosen to perform the wonderful duty of delivering and raising the Son of God. We do not deify her. We do not worship her. But we honor her as we do the rest of the Lord's obedient servants.

It disturbs me slightly when I hear about how "touchy feely" mormons are and how missionaries use only feelings to lead people to find truth. I sounds so manipulative. To appeal to peoples emotions and somehow convince them that way. This understanding and description really doesn't explain the church and the Spirit of the Lord in accuracy. The Lord gave us all of our faculties; our emotions and our intellect. He gave us our intuition and he gave us our logic. I, frankly, use all of my faculties to determine truth. I study and learn and consider for myself. I use my experience as a frame of reference and hopefully am open to others and any experience that is not familiar as a reference point as well. I don't use logic or intellect alone. I don't decide who I may date or who I choose to babysit my children based only upon the resume. Sadly, there is more to people than the picture they paint. I have turned some away because of a feeling....a warning feeliing. And I have made the mistake of trusting people that should not have been trusted. And as I look back, I really did know something was amiss -- I just didn't listen. Finding spiritual truth envolves multiple human devises. But with spiritual things, one must go a step further. That step involves a momentum of faith to ask Father for the final word, or tie-breaking answer. Those answers come thru the Spirit or Holy Ghost. Identifying that Holy Ghost is what is THE most important part of any spiritual quest because as wonderful as our faculties are, they are not perfect and prone to misjudgment. Father in Heaven moves thru popular opinion, flattering dogma, and emotional zeal. It lays to rest confusion and doubt. That is why applying for the companionship of the Holy Ghost is such an important part of prayer and investigation and further devoted living. It is very possible and even described in scripture to experience an emotional response to the spirit. Peace, love, joy, etc. But their are other descriptions as well; many describe knowing things that they previously didn't. Amulek says "I know of myself". Pres J F Smith in D&C 138 describes "the eyes of my understanding we opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested on me, and I saw...." I am talking about revelation -- personal revelation! Which is a blessing open to all man kind who genuinely and sincerely seek the truth and who has full intent to follow whatever direction they receive. That revelation may come in a variety of different ways: dreams, feelings, impressions, thoughts, words in the mind, remembering something from the past, new ideas, pictures in the mind, music, powerful understanding of scripture and enlightenment of ones understanding. And after one has received such knowledge, they may exhibit an emotional response. They may not. Many reactions are possible. But it is common to experience a variety of emotions AND intellectual thinking in response to the spirit. For me, spiritual communication is so very logical AND emotional. I sometimes feel very clear and sure inside. Other times I feel humbled or touched and tears may come. I have even seen some become angry as they feel it, and subsequently reject it. "And again, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And whe ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of ALL things." (Moroni 10:3-5)

I think I know what it was like to be a kid and have my parents provoke me to anger. It never happened when they were centered and trying to teach me right from wrong. It didn't happen when they were trying to point out my faults or misdeeds and they needed a firm stance to drive home the message. It happened when they were selfish and unrighteously angry within themselves. It happened when their own stressors outweighed their self control and I was in the crossfire. In my own experience as a parent, there is nothing like kids to push all my buttons! Including my anger buttons!! My oldest boy was very difficult in his early days. And being a first time parent, and not having a diagnosis to help me, I made lots of mistakes. I didn't control my temper as I should. And I saw my son provoked to wrath. The Spirit taught me in those moments what I think those scriptures are trying to say. These times happened to me when I stopped thinking about the wellfare and upbringing of my son, and got fixated on my selfish needs. No parent is perfect. And sometimes the above mentioned scriptures can give LDS parents anxiety while we all try so hard to be perfect at our admonitions and lessons and at the same time carry many heavy burdens brought upon by these last days. I think the trick is finding balance.....and applying forgiveness!!! Forgiveness for children and all the things they do! And forgiveness for ourselves, as we stumble thru the world of parenthood without expert training beforehand.

Remember those three days with Alma the Younger? I wonder if that is part of what is happening here. I hope it serves to change his heart. I hope you get you husband back..... but I hope he comes back to you whole and completely back to himself....the self God created. The choice is his. It sounds like you are strong right now. That is impressive. God is so very good! Looks like He is supporting you both with exactly what you need. :)

There is wisdom in sticking to the manual. I must admit that one of my pet peeves is when someone says " the lesson manual says the subject today is X, but in my infinite wisdom I have chosen to talk on Y." Especially when lesson Y includes the gospel according to the teacher.

thanks for this, breezy! You will have to forgive me -- I can't help myself....... The Book of Mormon is so very true! I love that book more than I can say. I couldn't deny it if I tried. It has made more of a difference in my life and brought me to understand the beauty and power of the New Testament. Wow. I can't express it enough!

Well, I must say I can understand that. Understanding answers to prayer can be frustrating thing. It has been for me at times. I have had to learn how to obtain the answers and how to recognize them. I have also had stretches of time when I was sure the Heavens were closed to me. So, I completely understand. But, I have enough in my long term efforts with prayer.....even in my tremendous imperfection....to understand that God does answer....but not until after the trial of my faith. I have had to learn to trust His wisdom as my Father. I can understand the scripture reading.....but a little less so. My scriptures are torn apart! I have had some wonderful spiritual and intellectual experiences with them. All I can do is to invite you to try again. The BofM says "feast on the words of God". I love mine. They have been a best friend to me. I haven't been reading as I should lately.....and boy do I feel the void in my life. Maybe we could both start up again. :) Hope you will forgive me the invitation.

Well. That is your choice. A very safe choice.