Misshalfway

Hope you are doing ok. I will keep you in my thoughts today.

Maureen, Thanks for your answer. We are so close in our beliefs. I think the only difference I see is that the process of how someone becomes converted and made clean. For us it is Faith in Jesus, Repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The first two are our work necessary to come to Christ -- breaking our hearts and wills and coming with a repentant heart. The last two wash away our sins and make us sanctified -- glorious gifts. And we have that new start you referred to. We also believe that at this time God promises to give you his saving grace in exchange for your commitment to follow him. We call it a covenant. It is a commitment to obey his commandments and live in the straight and narrow way. In exchange, Father blesses us with the gift of the Holy Ghost so that through out the remainder of ones life, Father can teach us "the truth of all things; and bring all things to your rememberance..." (john 14:26). It also helps us determine truth from error and helps us make choices for ourselves and our children. It also helps me know when I have made a mistake. It withdraws from me. And I know that I need to repent to get those good feelings back. If works are not part of salvation, then does that mean that in the washing away of sin, mans accountability is also washed away? I get that a person wouldn't repent for things they don't see. But we are human and flawed even after we are converted. Why is there going to be a judgement day, if works do not figure into the equation? If Christ sacrifice and being born again does literally make a person perfected, at least to the point of justification, then why preach repentance? And why would the Lord say "Well done, my good and faithful servant." The way I see it is that our will is the only gift we can give to the Lord. He makes us responsible and accountable for our actions. If he didn't there wouldn't be a judgment. Unless of course, the judgement is only for the non-saved. Which isn't my understanding of scripture. PC said that a converted person, while imperfect and sinful, is not moving in and out of salvation. That sounds like " saved once, saved always". It sounds like salvation is guaranteed or granted to all who profess the name of Christ -- but it has exceptions for severe sinfulness. I am not clear on what God requires of man after becoming saved. It sounds to me like there are no requirements. That everything thereafter is only righteous expression of the individual. And that doesn't seem to cover all the degrees of sin in between. And there are so many scriptures that speak to the behavior of man. Why wouldn't the behavior of man factor into salvation? And it doesn't show me how God measures accountability in the protestant view. I better also say that you all may see it differently and I am trying not to forget that.

Would you mind if I shared my confusion about that? How is it possible for imperfect people to never or very seldom make mistakes? I guess the way I see it is that we all make mistakes -- even the best of us and that we all need continual repentance to keep us in the right way. What of continual learning at different levels and stages of ones life? What of spiritual maturity and repentance on those higher levels? What about the continually striving to obtain the Christ-like nature? Or does that change come all at once when a person is born again? And if that is so, then what purpose does continual devotion bring to the individual? If they have arrived, why strive? Also, what do you feel are the requirements for obedience in your church? If there is a judgement at the end of life, what are we going to be on judged against? Is there any other requirement other than faith for one to become converted? Any requirement to change their lives and repent? Or is it seen as a spiritual change only?

Welcome!

Thank you. I like that word partnership. I would rather use this word than "deal".

This is so interesting. I must admit being very confused though. I will have to give it all a read thru.

And who are the Calvinists today? Is this teaching found in one church or a few churches or is it scattered throughout Christianity? I am guessing this is not evangelical teaching.

Exaltation or Eternal life is living in the presence of God for the eternities.

Xan, I hope that you understand that so many come to fight us and show us how "wrong" and "evil" we are. Our church meetings are protested, our credibility is constantly under fire, and we are often asked questions that look innocent at first and then are turned upon us to engage us in defamatory debate. Not that I am saying this is your intension. I only say that to help you understand how LDS people may feel about conversations like the one on your thread. On such a medium as this, the internet, it is difficult for any of us to know true intensions. I hope that you can understand at least in part where some of the defensiveness comes from. I am sure if we were dealing with you in person, you wouldn't feel such skepticism about your motives. You love the bible and the Savior. I hope you can see that even though we may understand it differently, that we at least have that in common. And perhaps we can build future conversations from that common ground. I personally didn't question your integrity as a person. I wasn't sure the exact nature of your intensions. I felt different things at different times as I tried to read and understand you. At the end of the day, I just felt the church was being misinterpreted and misunderstood. But that was to be expected perhaps with so many topics being discussed at once and so many comments from different perspectives and churches. Hopefully, we can dust ourselves off and start clean. What do you think?

It is sometimes fascinating to me that people feel the need to "bash" other churches. I don't think we are the only ones who experience this, but I do think we attract more than most. I think to some we are threatening. I think to others, we are lost and need to be found. In any case, the church is peaceful to all. The people in it can get a little bent on occasion. But, after so many attacks, and with our history of persecution, it is not hard to understand the impatience that is sometimes felt. It does though, behoove each member of this church to refrain from contention and move to higher ground. This kind of display won't stop. It will always follow a church like this. I agree with Skalenfehl. Building on the common ground... and living our best lives is all we can do. Love our enemies fits in there too, I spose. EDIT: I wanted to add as well, that we have much we can learn from one another. I heard it once called Religious Envy. We can look outside of ourselves and grow and stretch because of the seemingly different doctrines of other faiths. I have learned so much about grace from my protestant interactions. And so very much from non-christian philosophies.

Welcome! Hope you enjoy it here. Lots of fun discussion! What brought you to looking into the church?

Hello. I don't mind questions in the least!!! I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed:lol:, but I would love to give a shot at answering. Let's talk divorce. Divorce happens. It happens in our church. It is sad when it happens. We very much want to preserve marriage. And very much discourage divorce. But in cases of abuse or neglect or other like circumstances, it is understood that divorce may be the safest and best option. Sometimes people simply make mistakes...or one partner chooses a different road. It happens and we deal with it. There is no punishment from the church. Only a deep desire to keep marriage together. We counsel our young people to be cautious about who they choose... to be prayerful and honest. We hope that our children will marry in the faith. In the case of a divorce, the church has a sister organization (LDS Social and Fam Services) to counsel families and help to heal those involved. On the balance, we do the best we can with this painful and complex issue. Many of our leaders have spoken to it in what we call conference addresses. You can visit the church's official website, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and search under 'divorce' to gain more insight into official positions and counsel. Drugs and Alcohol: We have a health code that promotes healthy eating, sleeping, and nutritional practices. We believe that our bodies are our stewardship and we are to take care of them. This code is called "Word of Wisdom". It is found in the 89th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. You can search this on the official website under -scriptures-. We don't drink coffee or tea and we avoid addictive substances such as alcohol and drugs. We do use drugs medicinally under the direction of a Dr. Prophets: We believe god follows a pattern for revealing information to us. Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. We believe that as part of Christ's mission on the earth, he organized his church on the earth and called 12 prophets.... or Apostles to lead the church after he had risen to the Father. Those prophets were killed and the church fell into apostacy. We believe (short version) that the church needed to be restored to the earth. God again started calling prophets. Joseph Smith is the first prophet called in this dispensation. We have a modern day "Peter" and 12 Apostles that are special witnesses of Christ for the current times. Value of Prophets: Well, it works much the same way it did at the time of Moses. Moses goes to the mountain to converse with the Lord. He comes back with info/commandments for the people. It is wonderful to have constant revelation for the needs of our day and times. The people of old didn't have the evils we do today. Our current prophet performs that same function. He is a man and not perfect, but when he speaks in the name of the Lord, it is as if the Lord were here saying it Himself. Our leaders do world wide conferences twice a year. The talk for two days. Their words are then published in the church magazine and distributed. With such a modern day and world wide effort, we need God to guide and direct this church so we don't go astray.... as they say. I hope that helps a little.

Hello. And welcome! Born Again: Yes. Absolutely. Our understanding of what this means may differ slightly from traditional Christianity, But yes. We believe in this mighty change of heart and disposition that happens when one comes to Christ. We don't necessarily believe that this process is confined to one event. Sanctity of Marriage: We uphold the concept of marriage between a man and a woman. We wouldn't condemn a marriage of two people who may affiliate differently. We would encourage all the principles that would make that marriage strong. We would hope that perhaps both could be invited to come to Christ. But there are many marriages like this amongst us and we support all of them in their choice to be together. We do believe in Eternal marriage. That is for those of our faith who want to be married for time and all eternity. We also perform marriages just for time. (This needs more explanation I know. This is just an intro....) Backsliding: If by this you mean sinning, then that is an easy one. When a person sins or makes a sinful mistake, we teach and encourage that person to repent. To acknowledge and feel sorrow for the deed and then to take steps to make restitution and ask for forgiveness. Then God forgives and remembers the sin no more. All of us are human and flawed and so we all practice repentance to continually keep our lives in harmony with the teachings of the Savior. Did I understand your question correctly? Yes there are many groups in Europe. I am not sure about the specifics in the Netherlands. I am sure someone else on this site can direct you.

There were a few posts that in my opinion did get personal. I am always sad when I see that happen. Had I been in her shoes, I would have felt defensive. But on the balance, I think everyone was honest and civil. I think she was honest and civil. I wished to see more respectful discussion and peaceful disagreement than artful manipulation of words and meanings. Trying to catch each other in their words...... It was clear that she was extremely knowledgeable. I must respect her ability to recall such information and present it in such an organized way... and to do so so quickly! She must be exhausted. And there is no doubt in my mind of her sincere love for the Lord. But, I didn't see any listening happening in this conversation. Only arguing. Only trying to be right. It was a classic courtroom battle. No winners or losers. No coming together. Not a conversation of mutual respect. I am not sure what she thought would happen. She wanted answers. She got them -- to the best of our ability in this limited medium. Was she looking for us to agree? That would have been a tall order. I am not sure she heard what was really being said to her. And maybe we didn't hear her either. These conversations go round and round and never get anywhere. It was intellectually stimulating. It did help me confirm my faith. But.......Any hearts softened? Anybody feel the spirit? I will say it again. Bible bashing never works.

M, Thanks for that. I see it much the same way too... I just didn't add it in my post. But yes, I agree that the born again thing.. the being changed spiritually and the being welcomed into the fold. I believe that too. Our BofM talks a lot about being born again and having our spirits and dispositions literally changed because of the blood of the lamb. And we do believe also that resurrection and eternal life are the blessings of salvation -- just to clarify. Resurrection is for all men, no matter what. Eternal life is for the obedient who did follow the Savior. I don't think I am explaining myself very well. I reread my posts and it just isn't exactly what I want to say. But I haven't slept for a few nights....sick kids. Hope you will forgive my fumbles. I am rambling...... Anyway, I am comforted that our views are at least similar. And I think that I misunderstood. And I am glad I asked the question. Are there parts of Christianity that do teach that being 'saved' is a guarantee to Exaltation? Because I have been told this by many. And it seems by others who have posted on this thread that perhaps there are different interpretations of this idea.

Thanks for your posts. I am understanding. I think I just had a few missing peices but it is more clear to me now.

Yes. Jesus is an eternal being. In the mormon philosphy....we all are. We will exist for eternity after we leave this life... hopefully with God. We are spirits enjoying a physical experience. But we believe that to progress and become like our father, we must gain a body. The resurrection helps all of us overcome death... and sin of course. Beyond that.....is speculation. There are lots of our members write these books and try to answer all the quesitons of the eternities. They are not our canonized doctrines. They are cool to read about. But they are not taught at church in our manuals. They are opinion.... and that is all. So when you do your research, it is important to read from the right documents

No we do not believe that. We believe that God is our Heavenly Father and that he created spirit children. He hasn't as yet let us in on how he does it. We are literal offspring of God. We existed in God's presence before coming to earth. We came to earth to get a body. We will die and return to Him. Jesus was the first born of the Spirit children of God. He is the son of God. He came to fulfill his mission. Prayed to the father multiple times. Forbade mary from touching him until he had ascended to his Father. He has a body of flesh and bone which is now perfect because of the resurrection. He is the same as the Father in every way. Joseph Smith saw these two personages. One introduced the other as his son. The father and the son. Two separate beings. This is what we believe. The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit. He does not have a body because he his job is to teach men the truth of all things. Together they are ONE. One in purpose, mind, and action. Absolutely united in mission and intension and nature. That is the God head. Gods time is not our time. How do you define beginning in the eternities?

Ok. Yes. He requires our faith. Absolutely that part is clear. If I speed while driving and get pulled over, justice demands that I pay the fine. The cop, being merciful, grants me my license to drive and in essence another chance. But, even though I have faith that the cop will give me this chance....I still have to pay the fine. Christ works the same way. There are consequences...eternal consequences for sin. They work together much like other natural laws. To each action...an equal and opposite reaction..... that kind of thing. We are fallen, sinful, unfit for the presence of God. So, The Father in his mercy grants us a Savior. He dies for us and pays the price for sin. He literally buys us with his blood. Absolute grace! But he does this conditionally upon our faith... but also our repentance. He in essence says that we won't have to endure eternal punishment if we will commit our lives to him and repent...change....make restitution for our wrongs....change our hearts......become more converted. It IS absolutely a gift.....but it is not a free one. He pays the debt...but requires in return a broken heart and contrite spirit. Justice and mercy are both satisfied and man is accountable for his actions. Is this the way you understand it, Maureen? God can't give allowance for sin....but if we have faith, repent, and reconcile ourselves, sin is not an obstacle anymore. In my church's view, sin can separate us from God no matter where we are in our progression to Christ....Everytime I speed, I have to face the consequences and make it right again. Christ is there absolutely everytime to forgive and restore my blessings.

I love that story too. It is one of my personal favorites. Thank you for sharing it.

Please do not misunderstand me. I never doubt for a minute that God gives many chances. Goodness sakes! I experience that grace everyday. I am trying to understand how "saved by grace" and accountability work together in the mind of a protestant.... I am talking about justice and mercy. This doctrine feels like it isn't clear with regards to balancing the two. I believe that becoming reconcilled to God requires that justice and mercy are both served. Yes, Christ died for me and you and everyone. But in my mind he requires something of me....my repentance in order for his grace to take away my stain -- to bring me back to harmony with my Father's will. I am wondering if other Christians see it the same way. Because it doesn't sound like it. So, I am trying to understand better the minds of my fellow Christians.

God didn't mean for spiritual knowledge to be determined by science. There is no part of the Gospel or scriptural writings that invite us to find truth this way. Science is wonderful. And interesting and intellectually stimulating. I love to watch my kids discover their environment. And I love discovering things along side them. But if any of us is to find truth we have to let go of the need to understand spiritual things with physical proofs. One must go to the intangebles... the spiritual to understand the spiritual. It is not that hard. We just think it is.

I was sitting here thinking about it .... and I think we all come to these fuzzy, or murky areas in our progression where perhaps there aren't firm commandments on things. Circumstances that may only apply to us as individuals. It is all good. Joseph Smith said, "Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves." I think that these are the times when the principles of personal revelation are so wonderful. We are all moving to align our will with the Father's will. And God will tell us his will for us. Sometimes, his will is that we choose for ourselves and that he will support us in our choices.... even if they are mistakes. He says in the D&C how he will not command in all things... but that we need to bring about righteousness of our own free will and choice. I know it will all work out for you. As you move forward with your investigations.... the Spirit of Lord will move your heart and your path will become clear. All my best wishes!

Yes. I hear that. And I appreciate that. Conversations like this are difficult and always will be. Not that we shouldn't have the conversation.... Perhaps it will evolve into something better. The tone seems to be taking a turn. That is encouraging.

Leeann-- I appreciate your post. But I must say, first of all, that conversations like this rarely turn out warm and fuzzy. In order for two parties to understand one another..... there must be willingness to UNDERSTAND on both sides. It is rare that I have ever witnessed this phenom in such conversations. As long as both sides try to prove their point.... there will always be the inference that someone is wrong. And sometimes, being right becomes more important than coming to an honest understanding. I want to believe that everyone, as flawed and as emotional as humans are, has good intensions. I am just not sure they are the best intensions. I am not sure the OP came here to understand. I think she came here to be understood. You can't take a stick to an beehive and then be offended when one bee stings you. Ok? This conversation feels like a heated debate rather than a conversation. You want warm and fuzzy. I have hoped my whole life to find others who could talk about my faith without bashing it. It is a very rare experience. I don't bash other faiths. I simply don't do it. I ask questions. And I try to understand. And if I disagree, I try to do so respectfully.... not taking anything from the person I am with. But I can't just sit and take the bashing either. Those of us who are engaging in this conversation.....are we doing so out of love? Maybe... Seems to me, we are all good people getting sidetracked by the need to prove we are right. And I think in the end, the Spirit of the Lord is grieved and departs. This isn't how Jesus shared his gosepel. It isn't how He communicates truth. Bible bashing never works!!! That is the only thing that is being proven definitively by this thread!