Misshalfway

Hey DS. I know that I am nobody from nowhere but, I'd love to hear what you think about the BofM while you read it. Is there a chance you feel any differently when you compare reading it to other books? I mean other than all the "thee's and thou's". I guess I am wondering if it might help to recognize little ways the spirit works. I feel warmer or calmer inside when I am doing spiritual things. Or maybe you could contrast that with times when you knew you were in the wrong place, with the wrong people, or perhaps the feeling you had when you stole gum as a child and felt badly. I feel it when I know a decision is wrong. Sometimes I feel a warning about something or someone. I get that a lot with my kids and their friends. I can pick up on the warning vibes. Last year, I had this feeling that we were going to move. The next week he got the sweetest job offer. I knew we would sell our house. I just had this sixth sense about it. And we did in a day. Have you experienced anything like that? BTW, you said that you know you are doing the right thing by questioning and searching. How do you know???

I hear you on this one.

Thanks. I appreciate that. I thank you for your contribution. You make some good points.

No. I haven't visited the site. I just had a conversation with a friend about it. I didn't reference it because I agree with their position. I just referenced it because I think it speaks to the pressure we feel sometimes. Like we are trying so hard to do everything to the best of our ability. And we hear the admonitions of our Leadership only to hear we need to do more. It is a human reaction -- not a perfect one. Maybe those women just had to get it out of their systems. Starting it all online..... I don't agree with that. But in my view, the sentiment is understandable. Sometimes I think we become confused about what becoming perfect means in our daily lives. Maybe not all of us become confused. Maybe you are lucky enough not to struggle with this. Maybe women struggle more than men on this issue???? I don't know. I clearly have pushed a button with you -- unintentionally. And I am not really sure you understand the spirit or intension of my thread. That is ok. You don't have to agree with me or take the time to understand. I just wanted to discuss it because I see a lot of my friends and associates struggle with it. That's all. Not sure what I am saying that is "expecting everyone to be perfect." If you knew me better, you would know differently about me.

I have been a member of the church my whole life. And there are lots of different kinds of members. There are the kind that do love unconditionally. There are the kind that judge and gossip. There are the kind who sometimes stumble because they are trying so hard to be "good". There are others who have learned to accept and love themselves at whatever stage they are in. I don't think it is a bad thing to discuss perfectionism. After the last General Conference, I was told that a website was created because some women felt the General RS pres. was asking them to be too perfect. I think there is a lot of pressure to do everything well. The house, the kids, the calling, the testimony, the table decorations when you teach RS. I think some put a lot of pressure on themselves. I think some punish themselves for making mistakes..... not even sinful mistakes. Just human ones. I think sometimes we aren't the nicest or the most accepting when we see one of our own struggle with weight or addiction or marital issues. We are human, you know? I think it is ok to talk about the imperfections in our social structure. I think it is to be expected that perhaps we don't always get along with each other. We can learn to be kinder and more patient and less offended and less pressured. We can learn to hang tight before we judge. We can learn how to settle our differences with love. Or we can learn that sometimes things don't work themselves out perfectly with a little bow on top! I really like Checko Okasaki's book, "Lighten Up." I think she wrote it for a reason. I think she knew that the Saints struggle with perfectionism. I think she had a lot of really great things to say. I must remember her advice the next time the road show comes along and the director needs everything to be perfect because he is convinced that it is more important than the Academy Awards!!! PS. Thank Goodness for J. Golden Kimball. Whoever brought that up, thank you!

Do you believe you have a spirit inside of you? I believe we are all spirits enjoying a physical experience. So all that physiology you describe is part of my experience. There is a place inside of myself..... where I meet myself. Where I can talk to myself. Have you ever felt that place? This is the place I feel spiritual things. It is outside of my logic and my emotion. It is a place where everything gets quiet and I just listen. Do you believe you have a conscience? Good vs. Bad, right vs. wrong? If so, does that sense about you originate in your logical thought? What about wisdom? I believe we each have a logical side, and emotional side, and a wise brain in the middle that kind sorts out the imbalances of the two sides. And I just have to add this last thought. I think that God is purposely holding out on us. We could run around with our heads cut off trying to "prove" everything. And He would just laugh. Because it is not part of his plan to give us all the answers at once. We wouldn't be able to receive it all anyway. Milk before the meat. God says, "I will try the faith of my people." (Third Nephi, at the end). He doesn't give us all the knowledge we think we need. But He does tell us how he works. As you read, Look for God's pattern. How does He deal with Nephi and Jacob and Alma ( who was a real poop for a while.) I know God tries my faith all the time. And I look up and say, "Did you have to try so hard?".:)

I am glad to hear that. And I am glad you are asking questions. You ask in sincerity. I appreciate that about you. You WILL find what you are looking for. Faith is a decision. You chose to believe. The same way you choose to believe your wife loves you. It ain't perfect or absolute. But you have faith enough to hold her hand.... that goes well so you have exercise a little more faith to smooch! Pretty soon your faith has ground so much you fork out the cash for a diamond..... and finally you commit and say 'I do'. Nothing logical about any of that! And apparently you made it through the process ok. It is the same thing with God. God will find a way to connect with you in a way your mind will understand. I know it. Good luck. It is ok if it takes a long time. Even years.

Is logic the only side to your personality? Can you think of an experience in your life where logic doesn't apply? Like babysitting little girlie girls? Or grieving for the loss of a loved one?

Breaking point..... hmmm...... From what I understand of science, it would have to do a heck of a lot better at the reliability factor for me to believe any conclusions. Most conclusions of science are temporary. Don't they need a lot of shoulders to stand on?? That circumstance won't change. And even if all the scientists got together and said there was not evidence of the bofm, I would probably guess some anti group funded the study. It would take God himself telling me it were untrue. But you know, He has told me over and over and over again.... even last night, that it IS true. There is no other document or experience or person, that could take the place of what the book has come to mean to me. It has power beyond its words to open the mind and heart and spirit. DS, know what I wish? I wish you would read it. Everyday for a period of months. I wish you would weigh it and study it and search it and rip it to shreds with your questions. Read it from the perspective of changing your character.... making you a better man than you already are. Read it with your wife, and with the study guide and the docs from BYU to supplement. And then read the D&C with the same tenaciousness. And keep praying every day. Demand answers (humbly of course) Need the answers. Want the answers. Want it so bad you can't sleep. Keep doing it even if you feel like a complete moron while you kneel in your stripped pj's. Just see what happens.

DS, what would it take for you to believe? You are asking us, but isn't the real answer inside of you? Even if you got all the scientific evidence in the world that there was indeed a man named Jesus and that he did indeed come to the America's, I venture to say that you still would find reason not to believe. Man's understanding of this world is, and you said it yourself, limited. And even if it weren't, you still wouldn't be able to believe. Laman and Lemuel, two characters in the book actually saw angels and still wouldn't believe. You need to look inward and decide what it would take to open your mind to the spiritual. Understanding and recognizing the Spiritual communications of God is the only way any of us "know".

My knowledge of the BofM is much more than a historical account of people and places and whatever footprint they may or may not have left behind. It is the kind of knowledge that can't be obtained in a "one time" reading. It comes after millions of little answers as I study. It comes from moments or seasons in my life where I needed direction and went to the book for answers. It comes from studying and pondering the people, their character, their example and then applying to my own life to see what will happen. And then it is tasting the fruit of obedience myself. I believed the BofM from the time I was small. But the sure knowledge you are talking about has come to me over time with much disciplined study and application. DS, don't know if you are married or have kids. But do you love your wife or child? or let's say your mother or a sibling? How do you know you love them? Can you prove it? Measure it? Document it? How on earth do you know yourself that you do feel such a thing? Can you get your mother in law to believe it just because you say it? If someone came out of the science community and said that love is not possible for humans to feel, would it make you stop loving them?

Sounds like you are referring to missionaries. Is that right? I used to teach those guys and we used to talk about respect for others and their deeper feelings of connection and attachment to other religions. When I was a missionary, which was a decade and some ago, we didn't even mention it until the fourth lesson with someone. We were taught to build on common beliefs. I know the methods for training missionaries are different now. I know that it is less structured. But the only other time I really brought it up with investigators was when someone would ask us about it. It wasn't the main focus of the message until lesson 4 -- lots of time to prepare someone to hear such a statement. And usually, we were pretty sure the person was seriously interested in the church at that point. Gosh, often we would go to church with our investigators and try to meet their families and listen to their religious experiences. I am sad to hear of a missionary who would use the statement in a bible battle...... although I am not surprised to hear that it happens. And at some point the missionary has to be straight-forward about their message, state what we believe and ask the person to pray about it. Maybe the offense is unavoidable. The Lord did say his word was a two edged sword. Hmmmm...... I hope that the everyday mormon isn't running amuck like a playground bully and shoving this idea in everyone's faces. I don't remember the last time I even mentioned it in my daily life. Hadn't even thought of it, til I came to this site. I do live in Utah, though. And many of my neighbors are from other faiths. And there seems to be a defensiveness almost immediately from non-members. I wonder often what exactly is causing the offense. We don't smoke and drink or sware. And sometimes act uncomfortable around those things. I wonder if we appear to be so socially different that it is hard to break in. We had one set of neighbors that were not LDS. Many of their friends told them awful things about us. They tried hard not to believe it. We invited them to everything we did including church activities. And they often came. We did it not to convert them, but to include them. We were always having some party or some campout and we didn't want to seem closed. And frankly, we wanted them along. They were a blast. But I think over time they became offended and backed off. They became cold and reverted to their churches culture. It was sad. When we asked them, they never answered directly. But it was clear the issue was religion. In the end, I wasn't sure what we had done wrong I ask the question, not to act oblivious to the obvious, but to understand the behavior of LDS people better from an outsiders perspective. You see, I am a little too close to see. And I don't think that I am alone. I remember one Relief Society Pres. wanted to bring her nonmember friends to church just to help us all understand better the non-lds reaction. I wish she had done it.

Thanks for your comments. If I may ask a question, what exactly do LDS people do or say that makes others feel we are using this statement to put them down?

I was reading last night in the end of 3rd Nephi where the Lord gives the people the scripture they are missing and then proceeds to tell them everything from the beginning of things to the end of the world. And then Mormon goes to add it to his compilations and is foridden because the Lord said he would "try the faith of his people." It hit me that they had 'more' than we do. Never realized that before.

Body blow, eh? Strange how we can't both feel right, and extend brotherhood at the same time. Is sharing brotherhood only possible when we agree? Sad.

It wouldn't be logical for God to speak to Joseph, command him to restore the church, only to make it "sort of true" or "mostly true" or "popular" so other people will like us.

Anyone can fall. Talk to David. If there were someone deliberately working themselves up into church leadership, I think God would know about it and in His almighty wisdom, would take care of it. God has assured us that He will never allow a leader of the church to lead us a stray.

You are prolly right. He doesn't seem to cave very easily to his critics. He doesn't seem to want to upset the apple cart of anyone.

I have seen some pretty bitter attacks against him, and so far I like his responses. I worry a little about his big car and house. I don't know if he takes the money from his book sales or his ministry to enrich his life. How would one go about discovering that? I liked his answer to the question about Mitt Romney. I can't quote it but he said that if Mitt professed from his heart a belief in Jesus, that he would see that as common ground. I think Joel may be the first Evangelical I have heard say so publicly. I have to respect him, and thank him for that. It is refreshing to hear a friendly voice coming from the pulpit.

Lately I have been listening to Joel Osteen (sp?) and I really like a lot of what he says. I can't figure out the "being saved" concept. I have tried and my heart can't except the concept. But, I really like what he says when he addresses the worth of the soul. I like what he says about how we think about ourselves and our weaknesses and how God sees our weakness vs. how we sometimes beat ourselves up and get discouraged because of our flaws. Last night, I was particularly touched by his comments about having all the goodness inside of us from the very beginning. He said that God doesn't have gifts of our inherent goodness waiting for us down the line somewhere after we "do" the right stuff for a while. That is was part of us from the beginning. I loved it. I am considering the purchase of one of his books. Anybody else have any similar feelings?

D&C 1: 30 "And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundations of this church and bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking of the church collectively and not individually -- For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance....." Maybe if those who look into our faith understand that we believe that it is God himself making the statement, it would be less offensive. Just wondering......... I was thinking about this statement from the perspective of LDS members and I wanted to express that believing this really isn't a position of arrogance, even though it may sting like that to an outside observer. It is actually a very heavy responsibility if you believe. Where much is given, much is expected! It is a daily commitment to take up the cross and live according to that truth! You see, for us, there is no guarantee that simply having the restored truth brings salvation. If anyone for a moment gets comfortable and... even arrogant, they perhaps need to read our very BofM again and review the ends of two civilizations who did have the truth, and who sadly, through their own wickedness, destroyed themselves. And for one of those groups, it was only 400 years from the time they sat at the feet of the Savior and prayed with him and were blessed by him ! 400 years, and there was only one left to document the sad tale and bury the record. For the Latter-day Saint, there is no room for arrogance.

Love it!!

Is this a long term trend? Do you guys still do PPI's or visits to each member of the quorum? Perhaps they need some one on one spiritual message to help reignite their testimony. Or perhaps need some personal needs met? Keep praying!! Keep fasting!! Keep positive!! And keep inviting!! I think the more you create spiritual experiences and the more you tell the rest about them, perhaps could help to salt the oats!

Oh of course, Willow. I suppose the test is how we deal with our differences, eh? Thank you to all of you for listening patiently to my stream of thought on this issue. And to PC who had the courage and patience to answer, I say a special thank you. I appreciate your candor and insight and respect.

I personally think we have more in common than not.