Misshalfway

There is something in these statements that makes me feel deeply secure. Knowing that God is in control. It is comforting to lean on that strength and and absolute confidence.

I think that perhaps you are very right here -- at least in part.

I have been thinking a lot over the last couple of days about how some are offended by the church saying that it is the only true and living church. I often hear that from folks from the Christian community and who share belief in the Bible. I don't know if I am able to articulate my thoughts very well..... just going to think out loud here. I feel like I understand how it may appear to some as a statement of arrogance. It is bold, to say the least, and brave to state in this world of competing religious factions. As I read the Old and New Testaments, the God I read about is very sure of himself. In fact, absolutely sure of Himself. The God I read about is very clear and specific about what is expected for the Israelites for example. He instructed folks like Moses and Joshua and others to do specific things for the people. He says things like, "I am the great I AM." And " have no other God's before me." He seems very specific about the use of idols. ANd in the New Testament, he is very specific with the people in trying to straighten out the Jewish establishment. And Christ is very clear to tell them who He is. It was one of the reasons the killed him. Why would God be different now? He says he is no respecter of persons. He also states that He can't allow any degree of sin. Would he be different now? Would he let the people decide what was sinful and what wasn't? Why would he stop professing and identifying Himself to the people? And why is it so difficult to consider that He would identify his church to the people as well? He says in D&C 1:34 & 38 "And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh; for I am no respecter of persons....." "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by my own voice or by the voice of my servants it is the same." I suppose one could reason that perhaps God doesn't create churches. That He only gave dogma and spiritual ideas and then leaves man to interpret and guide himself. But frankly, that doesn't seem like a familiar pattern to me based upon what I have read. Why would Christ go to such special effort to establish his church if the specific nature of it wasn't important? So, I guess for me, the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants quotes the Lord in professing the authenticity of this church, doesn't offend me or scare me at all. It is something that I would expect of God. It instead invites me to determine if the statement in fact comes from God. Perhaps the people not of the LDS faith, are offended because they just simply don't think that a church like ours could come from God. I just don't know. I think that I am baffled as to why some become offended and turned off to the church because of this point. Perhaps it is the person sending the message. Is the arrogance coming from them and that is what is offensive. Perhaps it comes across as self-righteousness. For those who feel the offense, would it help to read the actual quote from God himself about this church? D&C 1: 30 "And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundations of this church and bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking of the church collectively and not individually -- For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance....." Maybe if those who look into our faith understand that we believe that it is God himself making the statement, it would be less offensive. Just wondering.........

This is a great story. I hope you enjoyed the fruits of your fast and the experience of baptizing her. Congratulations. Such a happy story.

I see your plight. Thank you for explaining your situation in better detail. It helps me to understand you and your struggle better. Again, I hope you will forgive my candor and forgive also if I have challenged you or questioned you in a way that perhaps doesn't take into account all of your circumstances. It sounds like you are pretty sure that your wife and friends will reject you if you choose a different course. I can understand how daunting that prospect might be. And yes, for the record, I have been led to do things that threatened my marriage and did eventually lose me my friendships. My decisions and the spirit that led me to act, did take courage and did cost me greatly. But I wouldn't trade my course. I am not sharing that with you to suggest you leave your marriage. Please do not misunderstand. It just means that I can indeed empathize with your situation. I think many who decide to be baptized into this church struggle with the exact same sitauation. So I share in a supportive spirit and I hope you can feel that. And so let me see if I am understanding you correctly. You have been raised LDS. You disagree with it. You don't think it is "right" or "true" church and you wish that you had the social and familial freedom to leave it. But because you love your wife and your kids and your LDS friends, you are willing to look at the church again and consider its authenticity because it means so much to them. Am I anywhere close?? Is there any part of of you that considers that perhaps it might be true? Or is that notion completely off the table? I was also wondering.... If you could reconcile science and the gospel of Christ, what would then hold your back from embracing it? To answer your second question, you can have spiritual impressions and not believe in God. This is a misunderstanding of most Western religions. I don't see this as a misunderstanding of Western religion. I simply see it as a philosophical difference. If you believe that, then I am glad to understand you better. My experience and intuition tells me that any spiritual communication must come from a source. And that source is what I understand to be God. You may not agree. But that is ok. Hopefully that won't get in the way of good dialogue.

I've finally found someone who has the intelligence and strength to answer my question honestly: "If God leads you to Buddism, or Christianity or Islam, it really doesn't matter. Having faith that He will lead you and make truth known unto you whether it is a question of religion or science, this is ALL that really matters. It takes courage and humility to walk this kind of walk." If the LDS church taught that - oh what a better place it would be (sounds more like Buddhism to me : )) What part of LDS doctrine doesn't teach that a person should trust the leading hand of God? This concept is the very basis of the restoration. It is the very action that started the movement in the first place. I am going to ask a direct question..... and I hope you will forgive my candor. But, could it be that you like this above statement, because it lets you off the hook?? Also, I never discount the possibility that God will lead an individual to the Truth they NEED and the experience that they need. I have been lead to ideas outside of my culture that have blessed my life immensely. It just so happens that he led me to the earthly church first. Joseph Smith himself said that many of these other religions have much in the way of truth and that we should seek learning out of the best books. It sounds like you were raised in the church..... and that perhaps is a stumbling block for you. Could it be that you are still battling with what you want and what your parents want? Could it be that guilt and culture are getting in your way? I may be completely reading you wrong, but if you can, let go of your resentments. Let go of your of your preconceptions. Wipe the slate clean and start anew. Then perhaps you can see it with fresh eyes..... Break out of the mormon culture. And even the earthly church establishment and all the imperfectness of the institution and the people in it. Allow yourself to be free of it..... and then consider it. Start with God. Then the Spirit. Then the Savior. Then worry about a church.

If you felt so sure that your answer was "no", Then why do you still argue the point in your mind? I have learned that when I am truly feeling a spiritual communication, then it settles the argument absolutely. I don't find myself questioning anymore. I move on the the next question. BTW, if you feel you got an answer, how can you still wonder if there is a God?

Your words are sincere. And interesting as well. I find it understandable that one might assume that the Mormon church converts its members through emotion. I do think that some confuse emotion with Spiritual communication. You have prolly visited those testimony meetings that appear to be a tear-fest and that appear to abandon reason. My personal and public experience has been very different. You see, I believe that we have an inner voice separate from our thoughts and emotions. We need emotions and we need reason. God made us with both. Learning to listen to both and understand both is part of our learnings in the earthly realm. But God doesn't use logic or emotion to speak to us. He uses spirit! Sometimes we have an emotional and even a logical response to that spirit. I find that through my effort and stretching and with continual exposure to the Spirit of the Lord, I can tell it apart from my emotion. That distinction is very clear to me now. It is something hard to describe. But something that gives me sure knowledge at the very core of who I am. Interesting that you wonder if Satan is the one using emotions. You better believe he does. He is very good an manipulating the hearts of the children of men. This is the very war we are in! All of us are being pullled to the evil wicked and carnal .... but also are being invited and influenced toward the good, righteous, and true. I think the missing peice to you theory is the need for trust. We must know and trust ourselves to be able to see through the emotion..... and the logic. We also need God and faith in God and His forms of communication. They are the only communications that are pure. I like Buddism and other Eastern philosophy because they have helped me to quiet my mind. To quiet my emotion and logical brain and to listen to my voice and to open myself to the voice of God. You acknowledge the existence of an adversary.....so you must believe in a God. I think the most important thing then is to determine how God speaks to man. Then you can tap into the most valuable resource for truth!!! Then as you search all the world for truth, you will then be able to recognize it when you find it. And you will be able to trust that you truly have found it. Reason cannot do it alone. Emotion cannot do it alone. Spirit can! That is what it is all about. So, my friend. If you believe in God, how do you think He speaks to you? Do you recognize it when He is talking to you? Because he most surely is! Then if you can feel and know that voice, that is the beginning of faith!!! Because you know that you know and you recognize that you can trust what your sense. I think the human weakness is to assume that we know better than God. To dismiss what may not make sense at the first brush because it doesn't fit with our life-style or our definitions of who we think we are. The most important question, IMHO, for you to ask is a question for yourself. Will God speak to me? How? And do I have the courage to follow? If you have courage to follow, you will always find safety. If God leads you to Buddism, or Christianity or Islam, it really doesn't matter. Having faith that He will lead you and make truth known unto you whether it is a question of religion or science, this is ALL that really matters. It takes courage and humility to walk this kind of walk. Science wants to answer all the questions.......doesn't it? And sometimes it is arrogant enough to think it knows it all. ANd sometime man is arrogant enough to think we know better than God. It takes more than honesty to walk your path. It takes humility, courage, AND faith!

Just a few random thoughts....... First of all, if you are disagreeing or finding impatience with the concept of faith, looking into Christianity may not be the right place to look. The very essence of the Gospel is Faith. It only sounds like to me that you could be seeing faith in the "blind faith" definition. If science is a big issue for you, and you do want to embrace Christianity at some point, you WILL have to come to terms with your own faith. It is part of progression. Faith is also absolutely key to spiritual and eternal knowledge. Faith produces more knowledge...more revelation, not less. Next. I don't see any conflict between the principle of evolution and the gospel of Jesus Christ and what I call "the plan of salvation." I don't always agree with man's interpretation or explanation of the principle. Because no one can prove it absolutely because of our human limitations. I wonder perhaps, if you are getting frustrated because all you hear is "have faith" then perhaps you need to change your questions. Are you trying to discover truth? Or are you trying to find dogma that fits your preference or your limited opinion of the truth? Any true scientist can only ask the question. They can't control the answer. So, the inventor of the lightbulb now knows what 300 different ways NOT to make a lightbulb. He had to change his question to find or fit the truth. That is when the "LIGHT" came. (forgive the really bad joke)

I think that it is absolutely OK and even right to ask questions. I think that it is essential in that questioning to make sure one is humble to the possible answers. These two components make growth and true spiritual knowledge possible. If you get an answer you don't like, can you humble yourself to it? Like the rich young man who asks the Lord what more he can do? And Jesus instructs him to sell all he has, but he can't cause it wasn't the answer he wanted. I think you ought to give it a go on this forum. You will prolly meet someone who will be prone to label throwing, but on the balance I think it is possible to have honest conversations. As long as we all respect each others convictions. What are your difficult questions? Love to hear about your battles.

I don't disagree with you. Maybe I didn't explain it well. I am sure others are better at explaining. From what I understand Hell is more a condition. There will be Hell in the Spirit prison and outer darkness is most certainly hell. Others may experience hell through out the eternities .....but to tell you the truth I would have to look that up. But I do think of fire and brimstone when I think of Hell. But I see it "burning" (for lack of a better term) a person on the inside... not like a room with literal fire like the center of the earth. Rather a fire that burns the conscience and punishes the spirit because that person knew better. That is my understanding. But I guess it could be considered a place as well.

Most likely..... but if I try hard enough I could probably conjour up a non LDS scenerio.....considering the LDS church has only been around for a couple hundred years and there were lots of people born......under lots of different circumstances....... Literally impossible for us to judge it all out with our human brains. PS. Elgama, you are LDS right? Think I got a little confused there. The memory just isn't what it used to be!

Kona,What would you prefer the LDS people to proclaim? If the believe one thing and say another, that would make them liars. How would one communicate truth to you without professing it to be so? I don't mind when I meet a Jewish individual who is convinced that they are the chosen people. It doesn't bother me one bit. Why should the LDS sentiment bother you? Couldn't you say in your heart that you don't believe it and just let it be? What is so offensive? Is it offensive to you when a Catholic professes to have the truth? Or when anyone professes to know? What about God? What if God himself professed it to you? What if you were Joseph Smith and he commanded you to tell the world that this where to find the complete truth? Would you find yourself arrogant or obedient? I personally think the far Eastern Religions have lots of truth. I think that sometimes our Christian friends have wonderful truths as well. Mohammad had tremendous insight. So did Martin Luther and other reformers. Truth is truth wherever it is found. And I think the Spirit of the Lord is very present in lots of churches and in the hearts of the children of men around the globe. This Church professes to have the correct priesthood authority and the power to give the gift of the Holy Ghost. And we believe that the Church of Christ MUST have those components to be "living". We profess to have the complete church with all the essential ordinances and doctrines for salvation. Do we know it all? No. There is much to learn. Either we have the complete truth OR we don't . It is as simple as that. Only one way to find out......

Oh my stars! Absolutely not! God judges the heart of the person, not their membership records. While other Christian faiths believe this black and white thinking... LDS doctrine is much different. Outer darkness and Hell are two different things. Hell is a state of being or state of mind and is temporary. The place or state a person will achieve where they must pay for their sins -- if they do not choose to repent in this life. This is all done according to a person's knowledge. Where there is no law, there is not punishment. K? Then a person will gain their inheritance in one of the kingdoms. Outer darkness is a special place ..... an eternal residence that is only prepared for the very few who absolutely know the truth with a perfect knowledge and literally turn their backs and deny it and then fight against the truth. It is a place with no inheritance; no light and no progression. You have to try really really hard to go there. Satan will go there after this earth-life is over. And only a very select few will join him.

Your concern is absolutely understandable. Frankly, during periods of my own recent sufferings, I have looked up into the sky and asked similar questions. Why would God allow such sufferings? It is absolutely one of the best questions. Have you ever read CS Lewis? He (not LDS) understood this stuff really well. "Mere Christianity", and "The Screwtape Letters" ( two devils figuring out how to tempt man) are my favorites. OK. My take...... We lived before we came here. You know we LDS believe that. We lived with God for such a long time. I haven't a clue how to measure that because God's time is not our time. But during that time we were taught and prepared. We learned very intimately who our Father was and what he wanted for us. Your memory can't remember, but your spirit can. We were told that we would be leaving Father for a time and enter a realm where we wouldn't have Him next to us to help us choose. He taught us about agency and how important it was to eternal progression. You see, for a person to truly progress, they must become independently righteous -- having the abilities and character and literal nature of righteousness that flows from us without compulsory means. Or in simpler terms, without a babysitter. We couldn't do that in our spirit forms and we couldn't do it in the "nursery" of our Fathers presence. The only way to reach our full potential was to leave our Heavenly Father's presence and learn to choose for ourselves. Like a child going to college and learning to pay their own way. Father also told us we would not be alone. He would bless each one of his children the Spirit of Christ -- in short a moral compass within each person to help them choose right from wrong. He promised us that we would be tested with pressure from the adversary. He told us we would get a body and would suffer with the humanness of that body and die. And that we would learn great lessons from our earthly surroundings. And then promised to send a Savior to save us from our sins and to help us overcome death. The whole goal of earth life is to give all of us experience!!! Valuable, irreplaceable experience that we couldn't get while in the presence of the Father. It all boils down to agency. And why won't He interfere and stop the madness? Because He can't. That would violate eternal law. And he can't disobey eternal law or He would cease to be God. Liberty! Freedom! These are not just principles of our country. They are principles from the eternities. And God won't interfere with the right to choose. And so he weeps with us and for us and sends floods when He has had enough. Sometimes he simply lets us destroy each other because that is our will!! Consequences!! We needed those consequences to teach us first hand. Who is to say that all these wars and destruction could have been prevented had the children of men listened to the promptings of the spirit inviting them not to!! And for those who do heed the promptings, he leads them to peace and love and joy and redemption! And this is where the Savior comes in. He is the answer to all the suffering undeserved and earned! He suffered much to save his people, IF they repent and obey. This time on earth, in God's time, is but a moment. And then we will enter, thru death, into the eternities to literally report back to the Father about our experiences and choices. DS, Father is still with us!! He tells us about Him as we seek him diligently. BUT, he waits for us to desire him. Pres Monson says "YOUGOTTAWANNA!" Desire is the absolute first step of righteous use of agency. It is also the first step to wicked agency. He acts only after we do. He blesses some with sure knowledge of Him early in their lives. And for folks like you, who are I am guessing a little smarter than the rest of us, he blesses with harder road in finding Him. My friend, have you read the scriptures..... change that.....SEARCHED the scriptures for answers to your questions? The answers are there for you. And the evidence you so desperately need is in there too. Not necessarily in an acedemic study of the words but a study within your heart and mind and soul! The Spirit of the Lord WILL come to life for you. When? I have no idea. How? I couldn't say. But I know it! Little me, with all of my flaws and rebellions, and willful spirit! Father has made himself known to me. Even in this last year, when I suffered so greatly..... so greatly that I questioned every corner of my faith and even the existence of God. God has absolutely come to me and heard my prayers and answered them with sweet healing and gentle comforts. And now you have me waxing long...... my apologies.

You'lll have to talk to God about this one.

Many so called scholars don't think the Bible is the word of God either. Many don't acknowledge a god. If these so called scholars come from prominent religious colleges or theology programs, it is easy to see why they would express such a bias. Scholars kinda crack me up. They are so convinced that their educational backgrounds qualify them to determine how God will communicate with man. Ohhh. Reminds me of the line from the movie "Titanic" about all the men going to smoke and drink brandy and all congratulating themselves on being masters of the universe!

I think that you are absolutely right about "buying" physical blessings. If someone has that attitude, they simply do not understand or perhaps do not understand fully. And that is perhaps ok because we all are in progress. The concept of tithing is taught over and over in church classes and meetings just for this very reason..... to give each person a chance to raise their understandings and in short, become more converted. It is clear to me, from many recent posts on tithing that we definitely need more lessons on the subject. Does God reward and manipulate the physical world? Does he withhold from the unfaithful and disobedient? I think the best place to find the answers to these questions is in the scriptures. It is clear that the children of Israel experienced something similar in their comings and goings. The 10 commandments is a good example. The Lord had intended to give a higher law with higher blessings but because the people were wicked, they were given the 10 commandments and the lower law of moses. Many times the Lord has withdrawn his Spirit and his Priesthood from the earth because of wickedness. In the BOM, the righteous armies had the power of the Lord behind them. And in their missionary work, they experienced much influence from the Lord. In my own life, I can feel when the Holy Ghost has withdrawn from me. Like when I am teaching a lesson in Church and I know that I am only teaching with my earthly abilities. I know what it is like to teach with the Spirit and they are drastically different feelings. I can also tell, when I am given a blessing, the difference between someone who has the spirit and someone who doesn't. So, that helps me to see that God does withhold blessings. He does that to teach us. Sometimes the children of men are hard of hearing or stubborn in the arm of the flesh and God helps to remind them who he is. It is all done with Love because he wants his children to know him and know how he works and then he wants them to obey him because he is the only way to earthy and eternal happiness. I think that it is also important to remember that God knows each one of us personally. He gives each one of us different circumstances. Why? Because he knows what we need. Sometimes having abundance is as much of a trial as not having it. I cannot judge the will of the Lord. But I do know this, that for those that have experienced spiritual knowledge, in or out of the church, God then requires more of them. And regardless of the blessings one may get vs another, the law of tithing is about obedience and faith. So maybe while you have recieved your "perks", God is waiting in the wings to see what you will choose before he blesses you with things like added faith and spiritual knowledge. I was also thinking about the long term blessings that come to a person or family who pays tithing. The scriptures tell of the parable of the 10 virgins and their lamps of oil. 5 who were prepared and 5 who were not. In that long process of constant and diligence in obedience something is gained that the occasional observer will never know. It makes that person more refined and more prepared. Refiners fire stuff. Those who don't observe the law CAN't get what the others have no matter how giving those others may be. These are the kinds of blessings that come only for the individual who is dedicated and committed and with whom the Lord will be well pleased.

The concept of tithing is not really about punishment. It is about faith and blessings that reward faith and lead one to have some form of evidence and confirmation of their faith. I think it helps if you remember we think of God as our literal father and that He is raising us to the best things..... the things of the eternities. The law of tithing is a mechanism of producing and stretching faith. It is a teaching tool...... and a way for God to accomplish the purpose of the church on the earth. I don't think God is going around punishing every unknowing person for not paying tithing. Where there is no law, there is no punishment. And God DOES bless his children because he loves them. Whether they acknowledge him or not. Perhaps He has blessed you and will continue to bless you to prepare you for your great purpose here on the earth. I do that with my own children whether they clean their rooms or not to help prepare them for the day when they will love their own children.

I know that there are so many opportunities for service missions or other types..... creative solutions that meet needs. I think a lot of it depends on your cousin and where he lands on the spectrum. I wonder if you could call the MTC in Provo directly and see what information they have. Betcha somebody there would know.

Yes. We believe that God is a male of Flesh and bone but glorified. We believe that The Father and The son are distinct and separate beings. We believe that if we are faithful that God will give us an inheritance to live with him and become thru progress, like him.... in short to become a God. Doesn't mean that our Father will cease to be our God. Make sense? Kinda like my kids become adults just like I am but I am still their mother. We do believe that we will have children...... but only spirit children. We believe that God had spirit children in the pre-earth life (grand council in heaven). Those spirit children include all of us. We came to earth to gain a body and some experience, and then we will move out of this life (death) and into more eternal progression. We believe that for those who do become like God that they will indeed have the ability to produce spirit children as well. One eternal round of progression. Make sense??

I am not discounting the fact that these things ARE hard. I have many hard things that I am convinced are too hard for me to surmount. I am just saying that there is more power in believing than there is in doubt. How do we get to "that point" if we are not invited....if we don't trust a step into the dark? I can't say whether or not Kona's problems will take a long time to fix. Sometimes things do happen overnight. They have for me. Not everything in my life. But whenever there has been an obstacle to obedience, I have seen God work over and over and over again. It is the faith of a mustard seed that moves mountains. Not the faith of a tree. I am simply testifying of that and issuing an invitation to try and believe a little more. I don't think the invitation should be weakened because my faith is weak. God helps us with our problems. That is why he tells us to pray to him over every part of our lives (Alma). He sends help and answers. He parts seas that are red, gives manna, provides pillars of fire and smoke, changes water to wine, frees from bondage, and literally moves mountains. He can solve problems with social security. It is man that thinks these things are impossible. It is man that can't see around corners and loses faith because of it. And it is God that consistently invites us to "Be still, and Know that I am God." I don't mean to argue. Please forgive me. Just feel strongly about this stuff. Hate to see anyone feel they can't get baptized because of temporal circumstances.

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Mark 10:27 Is anything too hard for the Lord?

I am not suggesting that a person run out and blindly jump. I am saying don't discount the Lord's ability to solve these problems or bring helpful people and information into our lives that help solve big problems. Saying that "I can't" is not using faith. I am suggesting changing that statement to "I absolutely CAN with the Lords help. He will provide a way for me to obey him."

It is not about the logic of drinking vs not drinking. It is about the will of God and knowing that he knows best. He is our father.... we his beloved children. I don't give my children permission to watch certain programs.... not because the programs are bad.... sometimes it is the commercials. The law is for our day. We have circumstances in our world that they didn't in the past. Our world is bigger and more complex. The consequences for drinking are far greater than before. Jesus didn't have to fight profit hungry corporations who desire the addictions of the people to line their pocket books. That is my earthly explanations. God may have different reasons. He says that this law is for the weakest of the saints. This must mean that he is trying to strengthen us in some eternal way. In the end, it is a test of agency. Will we do whatsoever the Lord commands? And with all of Father's commandments, he promises great blessings. In this case, he will trade you your relaxing beer after work for "wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures." Father wants the best for us. He is guiding us to the BEST things.... not just the easy ones.