Misshalfway

Halarious!!!

Dude, Lost is a sister, not a brother.

Loved that book. Completely changed my attitude and understanding of suffering.

LOL! Awesome! I think about homeschooling all the time. I have many wonderful friends who do it and love it. I still may do it someday.

LOL! Totally! You always sounded like a girl! I don't know where people got that.

OH, good. Then I can rest! :) (I'm joking. hehehe!)

I am not sure that you are fully grasping what we believe. No one can become perfect by obeying the law. We are fallen; human and sinful. We cannot return to the presence of God without the Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. We can become perfect .... but ONLY thru Jesus. We often refer to this as "perfect in Christ". Obedience is part of the conditions of repentance. Repentance is part of the gospel. And according to our understanding of the Bible, Repentance is very much part of the teachings of the Savior. Our scriptures teach balance. Our doctrine teaches us to rely on the arm of the Lord. Being perfect is not a prerequisite for salvation, it is the end result of it. One can become very tired, if they fail to realize the Atonement and the role of works and grace and how they all work together to bring the soul of man into harmony with the will of God. One who is truly converted, has been born again, and is living in obedience to laws and ordinances, isn't tired from trying to reach the unreachable. They are tired because they waste and wearout their lives in the service of God. It sounds like you believe that because of the Lord's sacrifice, that believers are no longer subject to the law. This is something that is not what LDS people teach. We don't believe anyone, God included, is above the law. We believe that the Atonement brings us into agreement with the law. For example... "No unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God." Eternal Law. No one can change that. But thru Christ's blood we are made clean and can then enter. Christ doesn't take us above the law and let unclean things into heaven. He helps us obey the law, and then we can enter.

To lostnfound, I understand your argument. I don't agree that the work was done after the cross. The Atonement was finished, yes, and the law was fulfilled. But Jesus continued to call and sustain prophets after his ascension into heaven. He showed himself, as a resurrected Lord to those prophets. I see no evidence that the canon was closed. I see no evidence that Jesus no longer needs 12 apostles. As long as there is one person left standing on the earth to be saved, the work will not be done. Is there a possibility of a false prophet? You bet your bippy! But I am sad that all you can use to refute Joseph is old and tired anti arguments. Even if Joseph never happened, I couldn't believe that the canon would be closed. I couldn't believe that God would call prophets and then just decide to stop because.......they died??? Or that he would leave man to such confusion. It just doesn't make sense to me. I know the scriptures say "do not add to this book". That argument doesn't hold water. The fact is ALL of the NT was recorded after the life of the Savior. I know you have to argue this way. I know. It is ok. All I can do is to testify that I believe that God still talks to man. That he still reveals himself and that he gives revelations. The evidence of this is very biblical to me and the lack of this understanding in modern Christianity is a point of great alarm for me. If it was so important to understand that God would no longer be talking to man, then I imagine he would have said so much more clearly and directly. I am sorry that Joseph's story is so threatening to the establishment. But so was Paul's, and Stephen's (he was stoned for saying he saw the Lord) and so very many others. The tactics that people use to discredit the prophets of God are the same today. I get that we have direct access. Having a prophet does not prevent direct access. It provides leadership and revelation and helps direct the work. A church without a prophet is like children without parents. If direct access were the only necessary piece, why would Jesus call 12? not just one, but 12? Have you really studied Joseph's prophecies? Objectively? Have you read his account of the first vision and his subsequent visitations? Have you read the BofM or the Docrtrine and Covenants? Have you read our General Conference talks and have an overall picture of what we believe and how we got there? Having said that, I have hi-jacked. Sorry Elphie! Can I offer a twinkie as a peace offering?

Welcome.

Threads like this....arguments like this.....they bring out the worst in people.

Would you mind directing me to where you learned about this? I dig this stuff! (No pun intended):lol:

Hello Blue! Sounds like you have an exciting life. Welcome to the site!

This is absolutely a most fundamental question. Is important to understand that Joseph met more than two beings who defied all description. He also met the adversary that day too. You can go to LDS. org. His account of the events of that day are recorded in the preface of the BofM. And beyond that, who was there with Moses or Stephen? Who of any of us was there in those days? The answer is the Holy Ghost. The answer to this will always be the Holy Ghost. I must also say, that I have heard this argument so very many times. I understand it, but I am not always confident that those who use it have really thought it through. It is assumed that the account of Joseph MUST be false or come from Satan, and so this argument MUST fit. But I can't get anyone to actually show me who the real prophets are other than Joseph. If there are false ones, where in the Christian world are the true ones?? What exactly is the process by which one tests the spirits??? Can God talk to man? Will he? Under what circumstances is such possible? Or have the heavens closed along with the canon? Yes, we also recognize that Satan will and does try to impersonate a being of light. But that must mean that God does visit man. Why else would Satan try to imitate such an experience?

I gotta say... I don't agree with the decisions of your bishop and your stake pres. Perhaps the counselor kinda knew that these were "letter of the law" types and he was giving you good advice. I am not sure I would have perceived his words as rude. Sounds to me like he was trying to encourage you to go where you were happiest so that your actions could line up with church policy. I find it interesting that all this was done over the phone. Temple interview questions are asked in the office, face to face. And if I were you, i would want to see documentation from the first presidency showing me where my actions were unlawful to the prereq's of God. I would make sure that I sat with the Stake President as well. I would go in humility and after prayer but with a clear vision of the issues. I think the stake president should hear your story from your own mouth. And then, my dear, I would advise you to soften your heart. We don't go to church because of other people. We go because our commitment is to the Lord. Perhaps, and only perhaps, this situation is an opportunity for you and your sweetheart to learn how to deal with situations like this. Becoming offended is normal and natural and human. But it is also a choice.... and it is important to understand that it is not the only choice. We all experience it as part of the test of this life. The invitation of the gospel is to rise above it and forgive. The weaknesses of our fellow brothers and sisters are actually great opportunities for us to learn. They help us see our own! :) And beyond that, I hope you can see that there is wisdom in going to the ward that you are assigned to. And these leaders WILL make a final decision (right or wrong) and there is the possibility that you won't like it. What will you do then? Perhaps you will only see the benevolence of this situation in hindsight.

My theory behind supernatural events is that it is all science. God follows natural law. The very elements obey Him. I think we as humans call it magic, because we have no other label that makes sense. I think under every miracle is a process by which the miracle is made possible. I just can't know all of it. I will only live 80 some odd years, and I have laundry to do. In my opinion, faith helps me with all of this. I know that miracles are real. Don't know how it is possible, but then again I don't have to. And I prolly don't show it to you very often, but I do have a very skeptical side. I don't believe that the virgin mary can be seen in cheese sandwiches either. Just one more thing, DS, have you studying the LDS stuff on light? It is really amazing.

Yeah! What Alaska said!

Seriously! I taught a man on my mission that would not even touch the cover of the BofM because he would immediately go to hell. He was saved, of course. Couldn't understand..... I have always said that I would rather someone dismiss the church on its merits than reject if because of lies or fear.

Lost, or excuse me, found! Well, I am never closed minded...:::cough, cough, choke:::...... Just kidding!! At the end of the day, we are all just doing the best we can. There are sometimes when we all just need to breath, and enjoy each other -- differences and all. :)

Hey Mckell, I sympathize with the situation you find yourselves in. I have been in friendly wards and not so friendly wards. They are just like people....lots of different flavors. I think that sometimes it is a challenge to find the good points from a ward that is on the not so friendly side. Often one can't realize those strengths from the sidelines, kwim? I think sometimes it is easier to go where we are more comfortable. But facilitating our comfort is not always in our best interest, from God's point of view I mean. There is much to be learned from participating in the situation you describe. Perhaps people need your friendliness or your patience. You never know what burdens people carry. Sometimes they can look different than what they really are. And sometimes the saints just blow it!! In any case, I think there is so much God is trying to teach all of us through every part of our obedience. Anyway, I am wondering what are grounds for withholding temple recommends. I haven't read the official guidelines on this. Assigning people to wards is a church policy...not a doctrine. If I were you, I would try to talk to the Stake Pres. or one of his counselors. Some leaders are more "letter of the law" sorts. I wonder if this bishop isn't a little overzealous in trying to drive the point home. They will most likely invite you to attend the ward where you are assigned. But perhaps with more communication on this issue, it can get ironed out. I think God looks on the heart. And sometimes bishops need to learn to do that also. I can't know what is the right thing here, just my best take. Just remember that all of us, leaders included, are absolutely imperfect. We make mistakes. We are sometimes not as friendly as we should be. And sometimes we just need to give each other a break. I hope your husband can look past the weakness in his brother. It must be hard for you watching it all happen. Perhaps, this is a temporary decision on his part. Perhaps, he will soften his heart as time goes on.

Lost, LDS doctrine. Not LDS people. Closed minded people can be found everywhere. So can closed minded ideas. And I can't speak for everyone but my experience with the LDS doctrine, IMHO, is open minded in terms of accepting truth throughout the world and seeing opportunities for salvation for every child of God and in understanding everything in the earth and around it. I suppose coffee and beer lovers everywhere would disagree with me.

I can see how some religions genuinely do require one to close their mind. It is not something I have observed in the LDS doctrine.

You can be prepared in other ways. Make sure you have cash on hand. Make sure you have liquid assets -- a few months salary put away. I agree that it is difficult to store large items in a smaller living space.

Shucks!

I know I can get mouthy! :) Been talking to DS for a while now. I think he puts up with me!

I agree with this too and I so see what you are saying here. I guess that I pose the question Do we really need that kind of provable certainty before we believe or trust enough to follow? There are times though when I know things. Not all things mind you.....not scientificly proveable things. Things that are only for me to know.....or important for me in the context of my life. Like the other day, I am at the store and have this feeling like 'buy a fire extinguisher'. Where did that come from? Well, I summarily dismissed it. Friday, my oven burst into flames. The fire department was here. I was a big show for the neighborhood. Two trucks and an ambulance! What a hooplah! All was fine. But I will tell you, I went out the next day and bought three!