Misshalfway

As I have been reading thru this thread and the questions of the OP, it seems to me that they really can be boiled down to basic questions. Is Joseph Smith a prophet of God IF, he gave slightly differenct accounts or descriptions of the BofM, used seer stones, translated something that was later proved to be a fake or participated in a history that is sometimes taught about openly and sometimes not, changed policy and practice, and struggled with polygamy? Am I getting you Yellow? I don't think there is anything wrong with asking questions. I am also one that has asked questions about the church..... and felt profound doubt too. I have learned a few things thru-out my searching and doubting and working to stretch my faith. And I offer it only as a side note. Compost what doesn't fit. First of all, the scriptures are my anchor! When I have doubts, it seems to be the Bible & BofM and sometimes more importantly, the D&C that brings my confidence back and comforts those demanding and argumentative parts of me. I especially like the D&C when my questions center around history or Joseph. It is very clear to me that Joseph was imperfect....as were many who served with him. And it is also clear that the Lord chastised them, and made course corrections based upon the choices of followers and enemies alike. And more than anything, it has become clear to me that the Lord is truly in charge. Like when the Lord says stuff like "I excuse not myself" -- I feel the power of that. I think sometimes in my infant-like logic, I expect everything about the church to be clean and clear and without failing. And then when I discover that it isn't clean and clear, or that the history is colorful, that perhaps that makes it all a lie. That is really is your question, isn't it, Yellow? You wanna know if this church is just a big sham. It sounds like what you have read has shaken your testimony, or at least disappointed you because this wasn't the history you thought it was or should have been. It sounds like it has shaken you enough to move you away from full participation. Why didn't they tell us all this stuff? I can only guess. My first answer is that I am not sure they have concealed it other than for purposes of damage control. Our enemies are pretty good at their craft. As I have processed my own doubts....moved thru the fear.....managed the frustrations of those who I felt should help or explain or whatever....and then tried to find answers, I must tell you that I feel like I know when God is leading me to light, and when Satan is tempting me with doubt. I have been struggling for a while now, so I am getting to know both sides pretty clearly. And there is one thing I know for sure -- God doesn't use doubt and fear to explain or expose truth. When something isn't true, the light shines and peace abounds. If you read something in church history that is untrue or that makes Joseph's experience invalid, peace and light will abound!!! If this church got anything right it is the understanding of the Holy Spirit of the Lord and how it works. And just one more note -- Inviting someone to pray about their concerns is NOT brushing them off. Yes, our church uses it as a default to everything. I know....I been around for a while. But I don't know of anything else that has helped me more. As I try to navigate the darkness and confusionand flatterings of the adversary, it isn't history books or PhD's or message boards that has made the difference. And when all the other sources are dead ends, it has been Heavenly Father's door that has always been open for me. Always sure. Always wise. Always loving. Not always easy. Not always everything I want when I want it. Good Luck in your searchings. PS. I was raised in the church and I was taught about many of the things discussed in this thread. Most of it was introduced in my college coursework. I am glad that the church doesn't do the fleshing of every historical detail. It gets confusing and merky with detail and IMO wastes a lot of time. I am glad the church focuses on the core doctrine.

This is all OK!! Sitting alone isn't all that bad. I get some of my best revelation that way! Or just people watch. That can be very enlightening. Perhaps the Lord will show you who needs a smile or a helping hand. Perhaps you could find someone in the group....an older wise and loving looking Grandmother type and ask if that seat were taken. And with regards to your H, I think that is Ok too. We are all in process....and the timelines of those processes don't always align. Being a good example does much for the softening of hearts! Goodluck, Mckell.

And I would just add to Hemi.....be willing to do whatever the bishop invites you to do, even if it isn't the most comfortable scenerio. If you are moving in a few months, why not just stick it out in this ward and make the best of it? Perhaps the Lord has a work for you and your H to do here--I would hate for you to miss out on that kind of experience just because this situation wasn't handled in the way you hoped it would. Forgive the bishop. He is most likely doing the very best he can. Let any hurt feelings go. They don't serve you. You will probably understand this experience better in hind sight anyway. And then, get back to the business of worshipping and coming to Christ and letting you light shine. I am sure wherever you are is where the Lord can use you.

Lol! Hope you store a dentist in there somewhere!

My issue is not with whether or not the bishop has the "right" to withhold the recommend. It is with the missed steps in between. I feel the bishop should meet with this couple. I feel that some kind of problem solving should take place. If this couple is moving out of the ward, why not work together with them and help them feel the spirit. Why did the bishop decide to revoke without any of these steps? And over the phone no less? Seems to me this whole situation could have been handled with a little more sensitivity. Not that the rules or expectations should be changed. Just so that people stay more important than policy.

Just took a quick peek... Love that idea of finding joy in the journey. Thanks Hemi.

Ditto, ditto, ditto, and ditto ! :)

Me too! Ha ha ha! Don't be afraid to lay it all out with the bishop. The fact that you are thinking about it tells me that perhaps you really want to somewhere inside of you. Perhaps it would be like emptying all of it out of your soul and symbolically leaving it all behind. I don't know. Just follow that HG voice inside of you and trust it! Be humble to whatever it leads you to do....it is leading you to freedom. And that smoking thing.....cake walk! Right? Nothing is too hard for the Lord!!!! This is a happy story. Your wife is getting baptized and you are heading home! It is a beautiful thing!

What is that saying..... Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.

All I can say is...BEAUTIFUL POST! You speak the truth!

Most of the people I meet are friendly. But I do get a little nervous when they find out I am LDS. It seems to change things and I don't like that. No longer as easy just to be people, neighbors and friends. I hate to be dismissed as a person or friend or neighbor just because of religious difference. My non LDS friends, though, are wonderful. I would love to make more of them. I do live in a place where LDS is the predominant religion. I hope we do ok with welcoming nonmembers and making our neighborhoods inclusive and comfortable. My worst experiences have been on my mission or here on the internet. And both circumstances are unfortunate but understandable to me....at least to some degree. I must say that the amount of negativity in religious conversation on this site is disconcerting at times. Sometimes, I just want to say "Let us be." I am hopeful that some dialogue can serve to bridge the divide somewhat. I wish we all left the judging to God, and we got back to the business of being and appreciating each other and just being good neighbors. We can always learn something valuable from people who are different than we are if we can only open our hearts to it. I think there is much we can do if we try to understand....not try to change one another or condemn one another. Practice should, IMO, never be more important than people.

Well, My list is pretty close to yours. Lately I have been working to finish my years supply. My focus right now is water, meat, wheat, rice, and beans. I just ordered some wheat from LDS.org and it is on back order. We made sure we have soap, laundry/dish soap, and paper products and first aid stuff. I need to stock up on meds for the kids. I also need to think about candles and fuel. I've got my 72 hour kits almost done. I have two items to add (little juices and trail mix). And I have little kits in both of my cars. And then it is all about making sure the savings account has enough in it. Our stake gave us until the end of the year to have our storage and finances in order -- so we working to make that goal. I want to get those mylar bags and the sealer (lds.org). Then I can save sugar and rice I just got on special. Has anyone worked with the mylar bags? Do they last as long as a can? Someone just told me that they didn't but that didn't seem right to me.

Sure! We don't live in a bubble.

LOL!

Seems to me this is a two way street in these kinds of conversations. What is your purpose in coming here, Hiz? Did you come to understand? Put us on the spot? Aren't you here to tell us we are wrong? This is why these conversations bother me. They are rarely started with the intension to understand and promote mutual respect. They open a forum for one to elevate him or herself above another. And I must admit, it makes me sad. We as humans and fellow Christians waste so much time criticizing one another. Tearing each other down in the name of salvation. Christ didn't do this. His message was that of love and inclusion and brotherhood. He spoke the truth, but never required those around him to believe it before he showed them the utmost respect and love and inclusion. Don't you all think we could spend our time in higher, more beneficial pursuits? Understanding one another, listening to one another, controlling our pride in our desperate need to be right ? Why is it that we look at doctrine that is different than our own and decide that this gives us permission to condemn? I am here too.....participating....... hoping to set the record straight about my own doctrine and expressing confusion about the opposite view, but when the conversation starts going like this, it just makes me so very very sad.

It is important to understand who Jesus is and what he did, in order to exercise faith in him. I understand that. I just don't agree in the way you separate us. I prefer to believe that we believe in the same beautiful Savior and that we can respect the devotion we each share even though we understand Him differently.

Understanding the nature of God is absolutely important to Mormons as well. It is clear that our definitions are different. So, I am afraid that it would end up in a draw. If understanding the nature of God were absolutely essential for salvation, I am afraid all of us would be in trouble. Protestants say it would be impossible to understand God and I know from my experience that I learn something new about God all the time.

How do I abandon sin? Wow that is easy. If I lie, I stop lying. I apologize and tell the truth. I make restitution for any problems caused by my lie. I repent to God. I ask him to forgive me. He forgives. I am cleansed -- thru his sacrifice. I am whole again. Not whole on my own, by literally sanctified thru the blood of the lamb. Do I sin? You bet. But isn't that the good news? I can be made clean again! I don't dispute any of the scriptures you share. I just understand that the word 'one' doesn't necessarily mean one being. I understand how you may understand it though. I just can't though, look as these scriptures and then factor them into all the rest that demonstrate a difference between the Father and the Son and net a belief in the trinity or triune. The Godhead simply makes more sense to me. Been a member my whole life. Don't know what you mean by the husband question. Sounds to me like you have been ill informed on our doctrine.

I though this little bit might help you understand how we feel about Jesus. We believe that God the Father and Jesus are separate. Father and Son. But that the Son follows the direction of the Father. John 5 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 1. Jesus had a premortal existence. The apostle John, who speaks of Christ as the Word made flesh (John 1:14), opens the book that bears his name by testifying, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1.) In other words, in the beginning was Christ, and Christ was with God, and Christ himself also was a God. The important thing for our purpose at the moment, however, is simply that “in the beginning” was Christ. The apostle Paul also says that in the days of Moses—more than twelve hundred years before Jesus was born—the children of Israel “drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:4.) If any more Bible evidence should be needed to establish the premortal existence of the Savior, you may wish to note a statement that Jesus himself made the night before his crucifixion. With apparent longing for the glory of his previous existence, he prayed, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5.)Eldin Ricks, “Q&A: Questions and Answers,” New Era, Feb. 1972, 35–36 We believe that Jesus is the savior, the creator, and will be our judge as well. If you keep reading in John 5 The Father commits the judgement to the son.

So does this mean that you do believe God calls prophets?

Here is a verse from the BofM in Mosiah 3. 8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. We very much do believe that Jesus is the Creator. He created under the direction of the Father. That is our doctrine.

What if they read the bible and understand it differently than you do? What if they read that Christ prayed to his father on many occasions? What if it doesn't make sense to you that he would pray to the same person? What if you believe, feel the spirit, and want to follow the Lord? What if you abandon your sins and move your life into harmony with the teachings of the savior? If your above post, Hizwife is suppose to illustrate mormon doctrine, I think you are missing it.

So painting Jesus in a different light eliminates one from salvation. Please show me where this is a biblical teaching.

So, to you, the belief in Jesus has to be 100% correct....meaning understanding his nature in its absolute correctness, before the Atonement will take effect in someones life??? Sounds like to me you are saying that there are perhaps more requirements for becoming saved than faith. Which confuses me because I thought it was faith you were talking about.....not a perfect knowledge. I thought it was faith in Christ and recognizing that we needed his help. It sounds like you are saying that only the people who absolutely understand Him correctly and completely will get into heaven. Yet, and I don't know if this is you, but other protestants have explained to me that God is something that can't be understood....that God is so vast and amazing that his true nature is beyond our human capacity to understand. So, according to you it is NOT enough to believe that Jesus is our Savior, Alpha and Omega, Creator, Lord of Lord, King of Kings. Cuz, that is precisely what Mormon's believe. I am also curious about all the Christians in the world. There are quite a few. You really believe Christ will dismiss the majority of them, because they don't understand him in precise perfection?

We need to send out an all site bulletin!