Works required for Christ's grace?

[Cameron]

I think its sad that we argue over this point so much. It's clear from Jesus' teachings that we need both. It's clear that without His Grace we would have no chance. It's clear that there is something required on our part.

I don't think that worrying about finding that exact point on the grid is worth our time. I think that we are the best judge of 'our best.' If I search my heart and feel like I'm doing my best, even though I mess up sometimes, then I'm on the right path.

[Dale]

In LDS belief is a work like baptism necessary for salvation from hell? Or does grace coupled with gospel obedience only necessary for certain degrees of reward, position, glory? My understanding is LDS do not believe baptism is necessary for a place in the terrestrial kingdom, but only the higher part of the kingdom the celestial kingdom.

Only in the case of sons or daughters of perdition do LDS believe failure to do good works effects salvation from outer darkness. So in effect anybody saved from the final hell has been saved after all they can do which is very little if anything, but faith in some cases. And requiring more amounts of all you can do would only to qualify for a higher degree of reward not salvation from the final hell.

I am Community of Christ/RLDS which also believes in a degrees of kingdoms concept. But when i see LDS expressing doubts about salvation in the Celestial kingdom i see Evangelicals as thinking they are expressing doubts about getting a place in the kingdom. So they take LDS as saying they have to earn salvation from outer darkness, but thats not what LDS are saying to me. But LDS never express a testimony of God saving them from hell, but focus instead on what i feel is a mistake only on what they do not have yet.

[MrNirom]

Has it not been said by LDS:

Salvation without exaltation is damnation.

According to Christians.. to be saved.. is to not be in Hell.. since they believe you either go to Hell or Heaven.

So it is true that by the Grace of God.. ye are saved... because we are not going to hell. Now.. of course you can

still screw that up if you rebel. Which is a negative works.. and therefore the reason that God says men

will be judged by their works.

Because the goal here is exaltation.. which is progression.. and anything less than progression.. or moving to wards our goal... is damnation.. or Hell.

Now Damnation means to stop the flow.... just like a dam stops the flow of water.

To be damned is to stop the flow of one's eternal progression. And our eternal progression is "to become what we wish to become"....

which for most LDS is to be like our Heavenly Father.

To become what we wish to become is what takes works and is not given to us by grace.

However it is by the Grace of God that we even try. And his Grace is his love for us.

But we do have a very active part in all of this... to think otherwise... is our own Damnation.

Edited November 20, 2008 by MrNirom

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Usually the people who debate whether or not works are required BEFORE salvation are indeed saved (by which I mean converted). AFTER salvation, we all agree that good works are a necessary fruit. ERGO...let's be about the Father's business, all ye who consider yourselves redeemed! Amen?

Amen.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps another way to grapple with this question is to ask another: Okay, you're saved. So...what're you gonna do with it? Will you grow it or squander it?

Edited November 27, 2008 by prisonchaplain
gotta add the [/i] :-)

[Traveler]

Perhaps another way to grapple with this question is to ask another: Okay, you're saved. So...what're you gonna do with it? Will you grow it or squander it?

The main objection I have to many in their expression of being saved is that they think they will get G-d's love and grace and that someone else will not.

For the record I believe that all are saved from the fall and will be resurrected to a state of great happiness - that is everything that they desire. If anyone is not happy - I do not believe it is because they did not get G-d's love and grace.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

You can't give someone what they won't take. Jesus died between two thieves. One received his love and grace and the other rejected it.

[ADoyle90815]

Works alone are not enough for salvation, first you have to have faith. Faith can lead to people doing good works because it's what Christ would do.

[bytor2112]

You can't give someone what they won't take. Jesus died between two thieves. One received his love and grace and the other rejected it.

Yet....he was still loved by the Savior, no? We can love someone and not be loved in return......how much more...... infinitely more........ does Heavenly Father love each of us.....including those that don't love in return?

[prisonchaplain]

Bytor...loved, and yet condemned...for rejecting the Son. In a sense, even those in the Terrestial Kingdom are deprived eternally from enjoying the presence of their Creator.

[Hemidakota]

Works alone are not enough for salvation, first you have to have faith. Faith can lead to people doing good works because it's what Christ would do.

I would place DESIRE, then HOPE and finally FAITH...to begin the journey. :)

[Traveler]

You can't give someone what they won't take. Jesus died between two thieves. One received his love and grace and the other rejected it.

It is not really a rejection when someone does not understand or know what they are doing. I believe Jesus forgave those that did not know what they were doing. As I understand the "prophesy" in the Book of Revelation - All will come to understand and none will reject G-d.

I do not believe that anyone that desires to be with G-d will be denied - regardless of how many times in ignorance they unknowingly rejected him. I believe the warning is to those that know G-d and then reject him - which would mean that the only possibility of someone that rejects his love and grace is someone that knows enough to pretend and claim to be saved.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, I'm not sure I am as optimistic, but I grant you that there is plenty of warning for those of us who claim to be redeemed, or even sealed. The rich young man, the rich man and Lazarus, Judas, the many who cried "Lord, Lord, we did these things in your name..." Yes, plenty of caution for us who believe to work out our salvation daily...

[Traveler]

Traveler, I'm not sure I am as optimistic, but I grant you that there is plenty of warning for those of us who claim to be redeemed, or even sealed. The rich young man, the rich man and Lazarus, Judas, the many who cried "Lord, Lord, we did these things in your name..." Yes, plenty of caution for us who believe to work out our salvation daily...

The main reason I am so optimistic is because I cannot find any type and shadow or any other indication in scripture that when anyone turns to G-d that G-d would answer that they had their chance and blew it. One example is the prodigal son. Note the significance of the imagery in Luke 15:32 “It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad; for this thy brother was DEAD, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The whole parable is intended to be symbolic of someone that had gone too far – passed the point of no return. Yet even a faint hope in G-d opened up a way. Especially as we live and breathe there is no one that we will ever meet are talk to that it is too late for them to accept G-d’s grace. Even if there is a someday some place that it is possible that G-d will not be merciful there is no one here and now that is not a beneficiary of his grace and that includes those that refuse, for the time, to recognize it.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

This is where I had to disagree with Elder McConkie in revealing the true love or how does the Atonement actually manifest itself without our foreknowledge or times when we least expect it for His called ones [Church of the Firstborn].

It is said by Elder McConkie that when a person who reaches Sanctification level or be called a friend by the Savior [if you know this statement then you know what I am referring too] who commits a sin of adultery, he will never be forgiven in this life and will be lost to the darkness of hell forever [per say]. Serving times past in the capacity as a Judge of Israel, I have felt the love of the FATHER, the Savior, and the confirmations of the Holy Ghost on multiply occasions, seated in counseling members of the church. This infact was not correct statement by Elder McConkie. Though, I do love and admire Bruce’s many publications, his thought process, and abilities of his talents, even President Kimball agreed, that was not the case. There are only two sins that cannot be forgiven and this was not one of them.

I have met an individual, where his church standing should have been a quick excommunication. It was by the Holy Ghost intervention that made a change in decision process, not just once [we at times feel the BOOK is more important than the Spirit] but more than seven times in that face-to-face meeting. I never felt that strong of love from the Godhead for this man and was told his sins were forgiven. Strange, I thought, knowing what he did and yet, his sin was forgiven to this level of magnitude. I had learned a valuable lesson that day, we may know the Atonement by scripture, easily recite it, or perhaps to reference it upon counseling another, but to feel it first-hand, that is a total experience that I wish many would come to learn.

“When we think we know it all, it is then we are brought to the knees of humility and the next level of door is open for our personal progression.” Elder Steven S.

[prisonchaplain]

God's love and mercy are extensive and extravagant. His justice is sure and true. He is perfect in all matters. In my encounter with God, I will count on and cry out for his mercy, rather than demanding justice. I cannot escape the understanding that many will refuse that mercy, and be left to his justice.

[Traveler]

God's love and mercy are extensive and extravagant. His justice is sure and true. He is perfect in all matters. In my encounter with God, I will count on and cry out for his mercy, rather than demanding justice. I cannot escape the understanding that many will refuse that mercy, and be left to his justice.

Book of Mormon – Alma 40:11-14:

11: Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection – Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that god who gave them life.

12: And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13: And then shall it come to pass that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil – for behold, they have no part nor portion of the spirit of the L-rd; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house – and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14: Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of G-d upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise until the time of their resurrection.

It is my understanding that the “wrath of G-d” is your description of the “justice of G-d – without his mercy”. I agree in part but I believe that even in his justice that G-d is merciful and kind. It is the darkness in a person’s soul that is the source and cause of sorrow which cannot be overcome by G-d’s mercy, love or anything else. However, I believe that even in such a state that if a person would turn to G-d and seek his mercy and forsake the evil that is in them that G-d would deliver them from their sorrows.

I think that the concept of “accepting G-d’s grace” is too weak and incomplete unless accepting his grace means to change one’s heart (which is the meaning of repentance) and become a covenant Saint of Christ. Like you, I do not believe in doing something half or part way. If you do something – you do it with all your heart, might, mind and strength.

The Traveler