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First Presidency Message

The Debate Is Over

President N. Eldon Tanner

Recently, at the Churchwide fireside meeting held for the women of the Church, Young Women President Elaine Cannon made the following statement: “When the Prophet speaks … the debate is over” (Ensign, Nov. 1978, p. 108).

I was impressed by that simple statement, which carries such deep spiritual meaning for all of us. Wherever I go, my message to the people is: Follow the prophet. Why else has the Lord placed prophets on the earth throughout the dispensations of time? In his infinite wisdom, and as part of the plan of life and salvation for his children, God has given us the plan to follow, the leadership to direct us and keep us on course, and the Church organization to help us lay the foundation and develop the skills, or make the preparation necessary, to lead us back to our eternal home.

It is foolish to suppose that men can be left without any help and accomplish what God intended for them. That is just as unreasonable as it would be to leave a newborn babe on its own and expect it to learn to walk and talk and feed and clothe itself without assistance from those responsible for its care and training. A child so neglected and left alone would soon perish.

So it is with us. Without a knowledge and understanding of the gospel, or God’s plan for his children, we cannot live according to the law which is necessary for our salvation; and therefore, those who neglect their spiritual training or fail to listen to and obey the warning voice of the prophets will suffer a spiritual death.

It is difficult to understand why there are so many people who fight against the counsel of the prophet and for the preservation of the very things that will bring them misery and even death. As one example, let us consider the Word of Wisdom. Soon after the restoration of the gospel and organization of the Church, the Lord gave a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith which we call the Word of Wisdom. It warned that tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco, among other things, were not good for man, and should not be used by the Saints.

Now this was quite revolutionary at that time, for the use of these things was not considered detrimental to health. For many years after the revelation was given, people thought the Mormons peculiar because they abstained from these seemingly harmless substances. Then scientists began to discover many harmful effects of tobacco, and today we are made increasingly aware of the health hazards caused by the use of tobacco, tea, coffee, and alcohol, with additional warnings about the risks involved for the unborn children of pregnant women.

Latter-day Saints should be able to accept the words of the prophets without having to wait for science to prove the validity of their words. We are most fortunate to have a living prophet at the head of the Church to guide us, and all who follow his counsel will be partakers of the promised blessings which will not be enjoyed by those who fail to accept his messages.

Today there are many subjects being discussed because of the controversies all around us. It should be evident to all that we need divine direction, since men and women who argue about these controversies seem to be unable to come to workable or peaceable solutions. It is sad indeed that the world does not know or accept the fact that in our midst is a prophet through whom God can direct the solution of world problems.

True Latter-day Saints have no such dilemma. They know that the messages of the prophet have come from the Lord and have the concurrence of all the General Authorities, who are men of vision and integrity, and who themselves try to keep in tune with deity. They are not, as some would suggest, following blindly and acting without their own free agency to speak and think for themselves. Through prayer to our Heavenly Father each of us can have the assurance that the course we choose has his divine approval.

Why should there be any debate over the moral issues which are confounding the world today? From the beginning God has made his position very clear in regard to marriage, divorce, family life and love of children, immorality, chastity, virtue, and the high and holy role of women. Through his prophet today he reiterates the Old and New Testament teachings which are clear on these matters.

History and experience have proven that whenever and wherever there is departure from following the word of the Lord, calamity occurs. Civilizations have fallen; there has been general and individual destruction; there have been weeping and wailing and great sorrow; there have been famine and pestilence. Only Satan and his cohorts have been left to rejoice. He is the author of the debates on moral issues. He has sworn to thwart the purposes of God. He it is who deceives and lays in wait to promote his cunning schemes, promising the riches of this world as a reward to those who follow him.

To gain these riches many engage in the debates on moral issues. The alcohol and tobacco industries and dealers in pornography are accumulating great wealth from people who buy their products and these products are detrimental to their health. With all the evidence of child pornography, it is deplorable that any parent would allow any child to be so exploited. Some children are being neglected and abused because their mothers are seeking worldly pleasures and careers outside the home. Many fathers are more concerned with their financial success than with the welfare of their wives and children.

We must turn all this about. We cannot serve God and mammon. Whose side are we on? When the prophet speaks the debate is over

[pam]

This article brings up exactly the point I don't understand. We hear people talk about Prophets and the importance of following the counsel and guidance that they provide to us. Yet in the next moment are justifying why it's okay to do certain things. It's okay to masterbate because it's not hurting anyone. It's okay to allow same sex marriages because that's our constitutional right. It's okay to watch certain media because it's informative and thought provoking.

When did it become "okay" to listen to only "parts" of the counsel we receive from Prophets. They receive their word from our Heavenly Father. So are we now trying to justify doing opposite what Heavenly Father is saying?

I loved this article and thanks Skip for posting it.

[Optimistic_Trish]

I absolutely agree, I think justification is one of Satan's greatest tools!

[cullenh]

AMEN Dog!!!!!!!! and thanks for sharing!!!!

[Guest Xzain]

Carry on, carry on good chap! What, what?

For any non-LDS who might be following this thread- I do believe the statement implies "when a prophet speaks as a prophet"- or, when a prophet speaks and is exercising the keys he holds as a seer and revelator to the Church. There are many public statements (and opinions) of prophets that are not necessarily doctrine-changing.

However, I have not seen any critical issue that the prophets and apostles have not taken a firm stance on- Pam has mentioned some crucial ones.

Thanks for sharing this quote MyDogSkip- I think this needs more circulation among the LDS faithful (not necessarily on this forum, but in general- such as my YSA ward...).

[pam]

Let me understand your statement Xzain.

However, I have not seen any critical issue where the prophets and apostles have taken a firm stance on-

Are you saying you haven't seen the prophets and apostles take a stance on the issues I have mentioned above?

[Justice]

I think he just forgot to insert the work "not."

However, I have not seen any critical issue where the prophets and apostles have not taken a firm stance on- Pam has mentioned some crucial ones.

I believe it's worded, "When a prophet says 'thus saith the Lord' he speaks for the Lord." However, he is free as a person to offer opinion just as anyone else is for anything else. I kinda think a prophet's opinion is pretty valuable as well.

[pam]

That's what I was thinking Justice. I just wanted to clarify. hahahaha I love Xzain's posts and usually agree that's why that one threw me off.

[Guest Xzain]

So true, thank you Justice and Pam for noticing that!

I did forget to add 'not' in there. I have edited it for clarification as of right.... now.

Also, I agree with your point 100% Justice- I too value a prophet's opinion very highly (in some matters, far above my own). I was merely making a blanket statement that may stave off hard feelings towards the LDS church if someone not of our faith ran across an obscure Joseph Smith or Brigham Young quote out of context (or even in context, for that matter).

I think I've been hanging around FAIR and FARMS too much lately... rofl

[pam]

So true, thank you Justice and Pam for noticing that!

I did forget to add 'not' in there. I have edited it for clarification as of right.... now.

Also, I agree with your point 100% Justice- I too value a prophet's opinion very highly (in some matters, far above my own). I was merely making a blanket statement that may stave off hard feelings towards the LDS church if someone not of our faith ran across an obscure Joseph Smith or Brigham Young quote out of context (or even in context, for that matter).

I think I've been hanging around FAIR and FARMS too much lately... rofl

You act as if that's a bad thing. haha

[Palerider]

So true, thank you Justice and Pam for noticing that!

I did forget to add 'not' in there. I have edited it for clarification as of right.... now.

Also, I agree with your point 100% Justice- I too value a prophet's opinion very highly (in some matters, far above my own). I was merely making a blanket statement that may stave off hard feelings towards the LDS church if someone not of our faith ran across an obscure Joseph Smith or Brigham Young quote out of context (or even in context, for that matter).

I think I've been hanging around FAIR and FARMS too much lately... rofl

pammie is getting up there in years....and she doesn't hear and understand as good as she use to.......:D:p

[Hemidakota]

This article brings up exactly the point I don't understand. We hear people talk about Prophets and the importance of following the counsel and guidance that they provide to us. Yet in the next moment are justifying why it's okay to do certain things. It's okay to masterbate because it's not hurting anyone. It's okay to allow same sex marriages because that's our constitutional right. It's okay to watch certain media because it's informative and thought provoking.

When did it become "okay" to listen to only "parts" of the counsel we receive from Prophets. They receive their word from our Heavenly Father. So are we now trying to justify doing opposite what Heavenly Father is saying?

I loved this article and thanks Skip for posting it.

I had a member who talked to me about a personal issue on how to overcome it, one you mentioned above. After explaining to him how easy it is to overcome this problem, he had a vacancy stare. I just don't know where the focal desire of one's life is with most people but it is not of GOD.

[Hemidakota]

Let me understand your statement Xzain.

However, I have not seen any critical issue where the prophets and apostles have taken a firm stance on-

Are you saying you haven't seen the prophets and apostles take a stance on the issues I have mentioned above?

Just not them but anyone speaking by the voice of GOD and the Holy Ghost is presence to confirm it to that individual .

[Hemidakota]

I think he just forgot to insert the work "not."

However, I have not seen any critical issue where the prophets and apostles have not taken a firm stance on- Pam has mentioned some crucial ones.

I believe it's worded, "When a prophet says 'thus saith the Lord' he speaks for the Lord." However, he is free as a person to offer opinion just as anyone else is for anything else. I kinda think a prophet's opinion is pretty valuable as well.

I haven't seen any prophet since Joseph exercise the Seership key. But I do expect this to happen again soon for a boy prophet who will be raised in the last days to complete the translation of the sealed portion of the plates.

[Hemidakota]

So true, thank you Justice and Pam for noticing that!

I did forget to add 'not' in there. I have edited it for clarification as of right.... now.

Also, I agree with your point 100% Justice- I too value a prophet's opinion very highly (in some matters, far above my own). I was merely making a blanket statement that may stave off hard feelings towards the LDS church if someone not of our faith ran across an obscure Joseph Smith or Brigham Young quote out of context (or even in context, for that matter).

I think I've been hanging around FAIR and FARMS too much lately... rofl

I love FARMS and FAIRS, for they do open theological doors to ponder over but not everything they write is correct. :)

[Guest HEthePrimate]

That quote about the debate being over sounds suspiciously similar to the notion that "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done." That statement is from a 1945 issue of the Improvement Era, and generated enough concern both within and outside the Church that President George Albert Smith responded in order to clarify the Church's actual position. Here's a link to a FAIR article about this: When the Prophet Speaks, Is the Thinking Done?

I especially like these two quotes from Pres. Smith's letter:

"I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow."

"Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: 'If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.'"

Peace and long life.

DH

[Hemidakota]

Well put HP. I do know "Truth" in the end will correct our errors.

[Snow]

First Presidency Message

The Debate Is Over

President N. Eldon Tanner

Recently, at the Churchwide fireside meeting held for the women of the Church, Young Women President Elaine Cannon made the following statement: “When the Prophet speaks … the debate is over” (Ensign, Nov. 1978, p. 108).

We must turn all this about. We cannot serve God and mammon. Whose side are we on? When the prophet speaks the debate is over

Thank goodness that not all God's anointed are so limiting or narrow:

Brigham Young:

"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

"How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves." (JD 4:368)

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." (JD 3:45)

"...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer." (JD 1:312)

George Q. Cannon, Counselor to three Church Presidents, expressed it thus: "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;" (Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in Gospel Truth, 1:319)

"President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel [see, for example, verses 9-10: 'If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing...the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him.']...said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church -- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls -- applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall -- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 237-38)

President Joseph F. Smith said, "We talk of obedience, but do we require any man or woman to ignorantly obey the counsels that are given? Do the First Presidency require it? No, never." (Journal of Discources (JD) 16:248)

Apostle Charles W. Penrose, who would later serve as counselor to President Smith, declared: "President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when 'Thus saith the Lord', comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill." (Millennial Star 54:191)

"And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves." (Millennial Star, vol.14 #38, pp. 593-95)

[Snow]

And from Elder Hugh B. Brown:

"I have been very grateful that the freedom, dignity, and integrity of the individual are basic in church doctrine. We are free to think and express our opinions in the church. Fear will not stifle thought. God himself refuses to trammel free agency even though its exercise sometimes teaches painful lessons. Both creative science and revealed religion find their fullest and truest expression in the climate of freedom...

We should be dauntless in our pursuit of truth and resist all demands for unthinking conformity. No one would have us become mere tape recorders of other people's thoughts. We should be modest and teachable and seek to know the truth by study and faith. There have been times when progress was halted by thought control. Tolerance and truth demand that all be heard and that competing ideas be tested against each other so that the best, which might not always be our own, can prevail...

We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything. In this age of speed there seems to be little time for meditation...

And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile; then one's logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his or her spirit, because real conversion must come from within..."

That's the Church I belong to - that's the Church I understand to recognize that man's intelligence is co-eternal along with God and freedom of the will is the thing upon which all the gospel is founded; without it there is nothing. (2 Nephi Chapter 2)

[Guest lauracooke78]

First Presidency Message

The Debate Is Over[/b

We must turn all this about. We cannot serve God and mammon. Whose side are we on? When the prophet speaks the debate is over

I think it is easy for one to agree with these statements when we have had no prophets lead us astray... as is Christ's pattern. I think it is also easy to agree with this statement when one is in line with the spirit and sees the mind and will of the Lord and therefore when the Prophet speaks, you are aligned straight way. But I think that is only afforded to those who have a clear path to the tree in their lives. That therefore is not afforded to all, and so I can understand why this type of quote does not seem acceptable to some. I for one agree with it. I suppose more would have to be added to the idea, for others to accept it. But I understand why and how it was said. To me the quote does not tell me to disregard the Gift of the Holy Ghost or personal revelation, but to others, they read more from it, and get that type of message.

[NeuroTypical]

Recently, at the Churchwide fireside meeting held for the women of the Church, Young Women President Elaine Cannon made the following statement: “When the Prophet speaks … the debate is over” (Ensign, Nov. 1978, p. 108).

Here's the rest of the story.

The phrase "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done." originally occured in a publication called The Ward Teachers' Message for June published in 1945.

The appearance of this message caused much concern among many inside and outside of the Church. Dr. J. Raymond Cope, the leader of the First Unitarian Society in Salt Lake City, was one of those concerned. He decided to express his concerns about the impact of this message in a letter to President George Albert Smith in November of the same year. The letter was cordial, and expressed the feeling that such a message was "doing inestimable harm to many who have no other reason to question the integrity of the Church leaders... this cannot be the position of the true leaders."

President Smith responded to Dr. Cope with a letter of his own, designed to clarify the point, at the first of December. The letter, reproduced in full below, should lay to rest any misconception about whether the Church or its leaders expect blind obedience in any degree.

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

Office of the First Presidency

Salt Lake City, Utah

December 7, 1945

Dr. J. Raymond Cope

First Unitarian Society

13th East at 6th South Street

Salt Lake City, Utah

My dear Dr. Cope:

I have read with interest and deep concern your letter of November 16, 1945, in which you make special comment on "a short religious editorial prepared by one of your (our) leaders entitled "Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church'". You say that you read the message with amazement, and that you have since been disturbed because of its effect upon members of the Church.

I am gratified with the spirit of friendliness that pervades your letter, and thank you for having taken the time to write to me.

The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.

On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.

In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:

"Know this, that every soul is free

To choose his life and what he'll be,

For this eternal truth is given

That God will force no man to heaven."

Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whom we are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance.

Faithfully yours,

Geo. Albert Smith [signed]

[rameumptom]

I would add that there is a major difference between personal beliefs that may differ somewhat from the Church's and publicizing differences. Sonia Johnson promoted the Equal Rights Amendment, contrary to the Church's stance. The Church did not prevent her from doing so, until her public statements spoke out against Church principle: she told people to not allow missionaries into their homes as a form of boycott. Suddenly, she went from disagreeing in an open discussion to a point of rebellion that risked people's salvation.

Today, the Church is more open than it has been in a long time. I'm refreshed with scholarly books that are changing the tone set 50 years ago in the Church. When I joined the Church and someone asked me if I were saved, I would answer that I hoped so. 32 years later, I am able to say that I am definitely saved, and so are most people upon the face of the Earth! Our understanding of salvation and grace are transforming the Church to a better understanding of all the principles as a whole. These are things found in the scriptures, but it took Pres Benson encouraging members to study the Book of Mormon for us to find out that it really does teach a covenantal grace. We enter into the covenant with Christ with no requirement but faith. Then, to remain in the covenant, we continue to display our faith by being obedient to the commandments. Obedience does not save us, but it keeps us holy and growing in the covenant of Christ.

[HiJolly]

I would add that there is a major difference between personal beliefs that may differ somewhat from the Church's and publicizing differences. Sonia Johnson promoted the Equal Rights Amendment, contrary to the Church's stance. The Church did not prevent her from doing so, until her public statements spoke out against Church principle: she told people to not allow missionaries into their homes as a form of boycott. Suddenly, she went from disagreeing in an open discussion to a point of rebellion that risked people's salvation.

Today, the Church is more open than it has been in a long time. I'm refreshed with scholarly books that are changing the tone set 50 years ago in the Church. When I joined the Church and someone asked me if I were saved, I would answer that I hoped so. 32 years later, I am able to say that I am definitely saved, and so are most people upon the face of the Earth! Our understanding of salvation and grace are transforming the Church to a better understanding of all the principles as a whole. These are things found in the scriptures, but it took Pres Benson encouraging members to study the Book of Mormon for us to find out that it really does teach a covenantal grace. We enter into the covenant with Christ with no requirement but faith. Then, to remain in the covenant, we continue to display our faith by being obedient to the commandments. Obedience does not save us, but it keeps us holy and growing in the covenant of Christ.

AMEN! I am so grateful for the current direction of teachings within the Church.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Same here....as the world expands so does the church leadership.

[Guest lauracooke78]

I think this month's Home teaching message is relative to this discussion.

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Safety in Counsel