Coming Home in a Pine Box - Is Sin worse than Death?

[Truegrits]

As far as the topic at hand. I would tell my son to do everything in his power to keep his virtue, but if it's a choice between death and keeping his virtue, I would prefer to see my son again and work through the emotional issues. I would not wish him to die for his virtue, but neither should he give it up willingly.

My daughter and I were talking about this. I would want my children to fight for, and to keep, their virtue. But not unto death.

On the other hand, I would, unto death, fight for/stand up for my Faith and my country. Never would I deny either. My honour and my integrity mean more to me than a mere physical body. Without those, my life would be meaningless, anyway.

[Guest User-Removed]

I don't think anyone is saying they don't encourage their children to live with honor.

What we're contending is whether or not death is preferred for one you love, than to have them lose their honor.

The bluntness of the "controversial" statement does not seem to make place for the Atonement, or anything, really.

How about "I would be more disappointed if you committed grievous sin than I would if you died clean and with honor."

Learn the metaphor here...no one is screaming for "Blood Atonement" a la Brigham Young here...

These talk topics have been around since before you were born. This particular topic in the context it's used, I haven't heard from the pulpit in ...gosh, dunno how long.

YET...What should be a wonderful object lesson for all, has been reduced to yet another attack on the Church....

[Guest User-Removed]

There seems to be a gross misunderstanding - Repentance is a return with honor and forgiveness from others has noting to do with true repentance - except for those that cannot forgive and therefore know no honor.

And so I wonder - has honor lost meaning with some? I cannot understand any parent that does not encourage their children to live with honor.

The Traveler

Sadly...Too many here would rather parse the words of the Lord, than follow them.

[VisionOfLehi]

I get what the man was saying, and what his intent was, but I do not agree with the manner in which he did it.

The ends do not justify the means.

[Guest User-Removed]

I get what the man was saying, and what his intent was, but I do not agree with the manner in which he did it.

The ends do not justify the means.

NO...You really Don't get it....

[Tough Grits]

There are things that there is definitely no variance in what we believe...like God being our Father, Jesus Christ being our Savior, and the Holy Ghost being the witness of both.

But there are so many things in life that are only a matter of interpretation, perception, level of testimony, level of knowledge, and our own life experiences.

This topic is NOT so important, that we need to hurt other's feelings.

Sometimes humans act like dogs...tinkling on trees to mark their territories. Well, some things are truly not worth "marking" a tree over. Good grief, just go find another tree!

Just because a person does not see as we do, we suppose them to be clueless. Good grief. I don't think some of us have the lives we think we do if we have SO much time to bully other people for their own opinions.

Wouldn't it show true intelligence and compassion to say, "Yes, I see your point. While I do not agree, I understand what you are saying."

Sheesh.

[VisionOfLehi]

NO...You really Don't get it....

OH! Thanks for your constructive input. You've REALLY clarified things for me.

I look forward to more posts of this insightful, logical, and participative nature.

[Islander]

I think we are discussing issues that tend to be on the far end of the spectrum from a Western world standpoint. Most of us will never, thank goodness, have to make those choices. I know the OT and NT do not necessarily address those issues. You would have to go into the D&C and even non-standard texts like the journal of discourses to find out what the prophet Joseph taught the brethren in that regard.

The Mishnah and the Talmud teach that it is more important to preserve life than to obey a commandment of the temporal law. For example, break the Sabbath because we have to work to support our family, or eat/drink a food staple that contains, say alcohol or caffeine, if there is absolutely nothing else to eat and we are starving.

Now, the spiritual law is a different story. We cannot deny the Holy Ghost or Christ for we thus deny the covenant. For that we must be willing to die. I would not spend much time on the subject because our theology and way of life does not require us to be prepared for such extremes, in most cases. Soldiers, in the other hand, die for their friends every day. I think if we had to, we must be willing to give our life to hold on to our covenant. Just my thoughts.

[Guest User-Removed]

OH! Thanks for your constructive input. You've REALLY clarified things for me.

I look forward to more posts of this insightful, logical, and participative nature.

Dood...I prolly should've put one of those laughy faces on there...

I'm on a really slow wifi in Chinatown...I'll slap it on later and explain then...

You know it's all good!!!!

[Hemidakota]

Would we give our lives for the Savior or for a living prophet? The answer should be - YES!

[Snow]

That is where you mistake when I would teach my children about standing up for truth. And that is where you made the mistake thinking I have no children. I have four and we have taught them from birth about being a perculiar people, who stand alone in this world. We have taught our children from day one about every law of God and especially the law of chastity. I would rather my children be killed then for them to give an attacker their virtue for their life, period. We value our virtue higher than our physical life, because our virtue is linked to our eternal destiny. Yes, God will forgive, but in his forgiveness of that terrible sin, does that mean my earthly children will still achieve eternal glory? Forgiveness means one has accepted Jesus as their savior and repented, it does not mean they receive celestial glory. So you can shake you head all you want Snow, it matters not to me.

It is better not to sin that terrible sin, than to do it and then have to repent. For the anguish of spiritual death far outweighs that of physical separation that happens at death. I find your tone to be very judgemental of who I am. I never said I would not forgive my children. There is a difference between forgiving your children vs watching them and feeling their pain if they had to repent.

I think that is even worse than your previously expressed desire that your children be dead rather than unchaste. Now you extend the preference of murder to a situation where they are attacked against their will. If one is attacked, one is not unchaste nor has one been sullied in any way.

No one is arguing, as your post suggests that it's cool to sin so long as one repent the issue is that I don't think that it makes any sense for a logical and loving parent to wish death, even hypothetical death, upon their children.

I wonder what point you are making by saying that you would forgive your children as if somehow you view their hypothetical moral behavior as a sin against you. It is not. It is a matter between them and their maker.

Beyond that, you are in doctrinal error if you think, as your post seems say, that though one can be forgiven but that doesn't mean that they cannot be blessed with celestial glory. When God says of those that are forgiven, that He remembers their sins no more, I believe it.

Finally, in as much as one who lusts after another has committed adultery or fornication in their hearts, we are all unchaste, or have been to some extent. In these matters I teach correct principles to my children and then I love them - alive - unconditionally - and leave the condemnation and judgement up to God.

[Elphaba]

If I am ever to stand for something – I would hope that I could stand with those that value some of the things I have mentioned; more than life itself and these I would trust honor and stand by – even unto death. I am not sure what I would do for someone that puts themself first.

Why not? Aren't you "putting yourself first," by choosing to bypass other human beings who do not believe in what you do?

There are circumstances where I would die for my fellow human beings, just because they ARE human beings. In those circumstances, the last thing I would is stop to take the time to determine if they were worth my sacrifice.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

If you could chose - would you trust you daughter with a young man that valued himself above your daughter’s chastity or with a young man that valued the chastity of your daughter more than their own life?

I would trust my daughter.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I have a question for those who would rather their children be killed by an attacker rather than let their chastity be tarnished.

What if your child is underage? Would you expect him or her to let themselves be killed as well?

Elphaba

[Brother Dorsey]

I would rather my children be killed then for them to give an attacker their virtue for their life, period. We value our virtue higher than our physical life, because our virtue is linked to our eternal destiny.

It is better not to sin that terrible sin, than to do it and then have to repent.

I'm sorry Laura, but this makes no sense to me.

If my daughter was being "attacked" and her life was threatened unless she gave up her virtue and she did to save her own life I would rejoice! I just don't see how the Lord would even consider this a sin on her part. On the attackers yes, but not on hers. Because she was forced into the act. I would never expect her to lay down her life instead of being raped. This could no way be considered a sin. Even in the church I have heard of young women who were raped and the loving Bishop counseling them that their virtue is still intact.

It's just not a sin if you have to give up your virtue under threat of life...

[Brother Dorsey]

According to what I believe - your second idea is what I believe, not the first. Here it is again.

1. If my life was threatened and I had the choice of saving it by commiting that sin, then I would rather be killed. That is what we teach our children.

Okay....How about if one of your children's lives was threatened and you had the choice of saving them by committing that sin? Would you rather your child be killed?

My point is...IT IS NOT A SIN if you are being coerced, threatened, attacked etc.

[Tough Grits]

Virtue-

1: a particular moral excellence

7: chastity especially in a woman

Physical virtue can be taken, in other words a girl's virginity can be forcibly taken.

Spiritual virtue can only be given, not taken. We can choose to live beneath our standards, but nobody can force us to.

So, while a rapist can take the virginity of any female (regardless of age), he does not have the power to strip her of her spiritual virtue. Only precious daughters of God have the power to strip themselves of virtue, but it is not something that can ever be ripped from them.

I can only think of the precious daughter of God, Elizabeth Smart. My heart grieves that she will always have to live with what happened to her.

Her virginity was forcibly taken from her.

But her sweet virtue, that part of her that is spiritual not physical, cannot be robbed from her unless she lets it go. She is not an aberration, she is not evil. She committed no sin. She was a child who had to endure things that nobody should have to endure. At no point do I believe that God turned his back on that little girl. At no point did He look upon her in revulsion. She is the same sweet, beautiful daughter that she has always been to Him.

I used to think that I would rather fight an attacker to the death (his or mine) than be raped. I am not so sure any more. Oh, trust me, I would fight. I have enough grit to know that an eyeball can only sustain so much pressure from a finger shoved forcibly into the socket! Yes, I WOULD fight. But I also know that I have two children who love me and need me. I have much to live for. My virtue would still be mine, regardless of what another forces upon me.

I will die when it is God's will for me to die...and not a minute sooner.

[Traveler]

All of us fall short and have done dishonor to our Father in Heaven. Those of us that have raised a family know that every son and every daughter will dishonor their heavenly and earthly parents at some point or other in their lives.

It is my opinion that we should never “disown” children that have failed in their honor but we should never give the impression that anything dishonorable is okay. Most children about to reach adulthood have a concept of the value of their life. Helping them understand that honor is of greater value than life is important at such a critical time. In the words of patriots, “Is life so dear or peace so sweet to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery… give me liberty or give me death.”

I do not think it is a problem that children should understand that they should “resist” evil. The problem is in how we define “is” or in this case how we define “resist”. It would appear that many are fearful to resist evil, especially if evil is willing to “raise the stakes” to a higher level than we are committed to resist. The results with such thinking based on fear, is that evil will always win. Let us consider chastity. Do we not understand that a rapist that is willing to kill a victim for any resistance is likely to kill the victim anyway because there is no value of such a life to them? Two very important lessons that we all should have learned from 9/11 is first – the more everyone is passive and does nothing in a threading situation the less likely things will turn out better for it. The second lesson we should have learned is that the sooner we resist and the more of us that resist the better off we will all be. What have you taught your child concerning abduction? To go along and corporate so they won’t get hurt? Or do you teach them the scream and shout method and to fight for their life.

When was the last time you had to choose between your honor and your life? Yesterday at 3:00? I doubt it – Somewhere we have picked up the notion that honor is not so valuable. I do understand that everyone must decide their values. But just so we are clear between you and I – Those of you that value life more that honor, I would not trust. This does not mean that I do not love you or have concern for you. It does mean that for all the things I value more than life – I would never trust to be in your care - ever. Also you must understand that if you get in the way of any of the things I (or anyone else for that matter) value more than life (including someone else’s) – what will happen to yours.

The Traveler

[Guest User-Removed]

All of us fall short and have done dishonor to our Father in Heaven. Those of us that have raised a family know that every son and every daughter will dishonor their heavenly and earthly parents at some point or other in their lives.

It is my opinion that we should never “disown” children that have failed in their honor but we should never give the impression that anything dishonorable is okay. Most children about to reach adulthood have a concept of the value of their life. Helping them understand that honor is of greater value than life is important at such a critical time. In the words of patriots, “Is life so dear or peace so sweet to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery… give me liberty or give me death.”

I do not think it is a problem that children should understand that they should “resist” evil. The problem is in how we define “is” or in this case how we define “resist”. It would appear that many are fearful to resist evil, especially if evil is willing to “raise the stakes” to a higher level than we are committed to resist. The results with such thinking based on fear, is that evil will always win. Let us consider chastity. Do we not understand that a rapist that is willing to kill a victim for any resistance is likely to kill the victim anyway because there is no value of such a life to them? Two very important lessons that we all should have learned from 9/11 is first – the more everyone is passive and does nothing in a threading situation the less likely things will turn out better for it. The second lesson we should have learned is that the sooner we resist and the more of us that resist the better off we will all be. What have you taught your child concerning abduction? To go along and corporate so they won’t get hurt? Or do you teach them the scream and shout method and to fight for their life.

When was the last time you had to choose between your honor and your life? Yesterday at 3:00? I doubt it – Somewhere we have picked up the notion that honor is not so valuable. I do understand that everyone must decide their values. But just so we are clear between you and I – Those of you that value life more that honor, I would not trust. This does not mean that I do not love you or have concern for you. It does mean that for all the things I value more than life – I would never trust to be in your care - ever. Also you must understand that if you get in the way of any of the things I (or anyone else for that matter) value more than life (including someone else’s) – what will happen to yours.

The Traveler

Amen and Amen...Traveler!!!!!.....The concept of honor is sadly lost on many here...

[Traveler]

Okay....How about if one of your children's lives was threatened and you had the choice of saving them by committing that sin? Would you rather your child be killed?

My point is...IT IS NOT A SIN if you are being coerced, threatened, attacked etc.

Dear Brother D: Let us be realistic. The situation you give places the life of your child beyond your choice. What trust can you possibly have that the one with the choice is honorable and honest in what they are telling you is now your choice?

There is one thing that has been left out of this discussion – thus far (except perhaps Tough Grits) is a trust in G-d and the ability to hear the spirit guiding witness in the hour of desperation. Three things that will prevent the influence of the spirit and faith in G-d are: 1) Anger 2) Contention and the BIG #3 – Fear.

The Traveler

[Guest Username-Removed]

Fear is always from the adversary ... ALWAYS!

Also, I'd like to add my two cents .... unconditional love is just that ... UNCONDITIONAL. Period.

Im out ...

[Tough Grits]

Honor

8 a: a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity <wouldn't do it as a matter of honor> b: one's word given as a guarantee of performance <on my honor, I will be there>

I think that there are WAY too many concepts being regurgitated on this thread.

If a person held a gun to my head and gave a choice between denying the Savior or dieing...then I would choose death. I will not renounce the Savior in this life. Because as soon as that person pulls the trigger, I will have died holding fast to the iron rod.

That is honor, but it is NOT to be confused with a child or adult who was raped, but failed to get themselves killed.

That is absurd. I imagine that those on this thread who suppose themselves to be the only ones "to get it" have never been raped.

I do not wish molestation or rape on anybody, not even my enemies. But I think it is of the devil to say that a person must seek forgiveness for being raped or molested. I hope that I have seriously misunderstood those posts of some, and that they were not implying such filth.

My hands shake as I type this, not just for myself (having been molested) but for all the precious sons and daughters of God who have been defiled at the hands of others. They did not sin, and they DID NOT relinquish any honor!!!!

To be without honor is to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery (being a victim of rape is NOT adultery), deny the Holy Ghost, and basically to break any of the commandments.

I would choose death over denying God, Jesus Christ, or the Holy Ghost.

But I refuse to believe that I should pray for death as an attacker rapes me. I will fight, but if it is God will that I should live after such an attack, then what mortal on this thread or on this earth has the right or authority to question God's will?

Maybe I have misunderstood...but I refuse to question God's will. I survived being molested as a child, and nobody will tell me that I should be dead instead. Nobody will tell me that God erred in letting me live. Nobody will tell me that my life has been a waste. Nobody will tell me that I do not have honor. Nobody will tell me that I do not have virtue.

[Snow]

Amen and Amen...Traveler!!!!!.....The concept of honor is sadly lost on many here...

Really? Who?

[Traveler]

Honor

8 a: a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity <wouldn't do it as a matter of honor> b: one's word given as a guarantee of performance <on my honor, I will be there>

I think that there are WAY too many concepts being regurgitated on this thread.

If a person held a gun to my head and gave a choice between denying the Savior or dieing...then I would choose death. I will not renounce the Savior in this life. Because as soon as that person pulls the trigger, I will have died holding fast to the iron rod.

That is honor, but it is NOT to be confused with a child or adult who was raped, but failed to get themselves killed.

That is absurd. I imagine that those on this thread who suppose themselves to be the only ones "to get it" have never been raped.

I do not wish molestation or rape on anybody, not even my enemies. But I think it is of the devil to say that a person must seek forgiveness for being raped or molested. I hope that I have seriously misunderstood those posts of some, and that they were not implying such filth.

My hands shake as I type this, not just for myself (having been molested) but for all the precious sons and daughters of God who have been defiled at the hands of others. They did not sin, and they DID NOT relinquish any honor!!!!

To be without honor is to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery (being a victim of rape is NOT adultery), deny the Holy Ghost, and basically to break any of the commandments.

I would choose death over denying God, Jesus Christ, or the Holy Ghost.

But I refuse to believe that I should pray for death as an attacker rapes me. I will fight, but if it is God will that I should live after such an attack, then what mortal on this thread or on this earth has the right or authority to question God's will?

Maybe I have misunderstood...but I refuse to question God's will. I survived being molested as a child, and nobody will tell me that I should be dead instead. Nobody will tell me that God erred in letting me live. Nobody will tell me that my life has been a waste. Nobody will tell me that I do not have honor. Nobody will tell me that I do not have virtue.

I honor your virtue. As a young man serving in the military I was dragged from my bed late at night and faced a group of angry drunk men threatening my life if I did not deny “Mormonism”. I was small (about 120 lbs) and young but threatened to take the first to try my life with me to death. It was then another outcast that I hardly knew or thought that much of at the time came from nowhere and stood by me with knife in hand and said he was sure that he could take at least three or four more with him.

The friend that stood by me was later killed in Vietnam having not been converted – but I am sure we will meet again in joy. And there were among the angry mob – at least two that I know of that did convert. I regret that in your trial you stood alone.

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

This thread intrigued me in that a few posters said they would rather their child die in an attack rather than allow their chastity to be tarnished. (That is what I infer from the discussion. Not everyone has said this.)

I googled a significant number of articles, and as I read them it occurred to me it might be helpful to post some of them that discussed how to fight back.

Each article I read in my search indicated you should fight back, and gave a number of ways to do this. So while I have listed a few, you should do your own comprehensive search. If you're going to expect your child to fight back, you should also discuss how to do so.

First, some information. According to U.S. Department of Justice statistics, women fight off unarmed rapists successfully 72% of the time. If he has a knife, she'll fight him off 58% of the time. If he has a gun, she has a 51% chance. Unarmed, untrained, if you fight back, you'll probably win.

I read of two other ideas that seem, at least to me, like they would be effective. One is to carry a small can of oven cleaner with you as it works better than pepper spray when sprayed in an attacker‘s eyes.

The other was to keep telling your rapist you have AIDs. Apparently most rapists will think twice from the fear of catching the disease.

However, another article said, while it is a good idea to carry weapons with you, (such as, IMO the oven cleaner) you would have to take them with you wherever you go, including the shower, to bed, etc to really be safe. This person felt it was better to learn ways to physically fight back.

Finally, most rapists are part of the victim’s family, inner circle, or a good acquaintance. The rapist who attacks you on the street, so to speak, or in the minority.

I don’t know how effective all of these suggestions are, but they seemed to me they could at least make a rapist think twice. However, keep in mind you should do your own research. My choices are exactly that, and no more.

The following are articles about how to fight back, which I thought were fairly good. Again, I am not an expert on rape prevention, so read them and judge them yourselves.

How to Fight Off a Rapist

http://www.ehow.com/how_2097832_fight-off-rapist.html

Fight Back with Fear (Fear kicks the fight of flight response, and the author specifically discusses intuition.)

http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/drruthless_fightback.html

Profile of a Rapist

http://www.paralumun.com/issuesprofile.htm

Elphaba