Forgiveness and just plain-old getting along

[Guest tomk]

I am 38 and a father of three beautiful children (in my humble estimation).

I have been thinking more and more and more about relationships lately.

I know I brought this up in another thread, but I feel the need to do so again, because it still is not "sticking" in my brain. It still is not making sense, and I need things to make sense. Especially this, because I believe the answer is to be had.

I know the Lord loves me. In fact, He even LIKES me. He has true affection for me. I love feeling this from Him.

I feel like I have a general love for others, but I am troubled by my family relationships. They are the hardest.

I know people have said that you can LOVE someone you don't LIKE.

I really don't get this. How can you "skip-over" LIKE and jump right over to "LOVING" that person?

This is actually a huge thing for me to be able to even talk about. I suffered with an addiction for over 20 years. As part of that addiction I learned to bury my feelings...to "numb-out" a lot.

Now I am learning NOT to do this. To be honest about my feelings. It's not easy. My cowardice is obvious to me on both ends of the spectrum...both in burying my feelings as well as in being afraid to voice them to others.

I want to love others. Especially the ones I DO NOT like. I just don't understand how.

Maybe the reason I don't understand it is because this LOVING PEOPLE I DO NOT EVEN LIKE must come from the Lord as a blessing. As a gift. He must reveal it to me (like all other truths).

He seems to reserve especially THIS THING unto Himself. Charity, above all else, would seem to be His GIFT to us. A GIFT that flows from our honest relationship with Him, and our honesty about how we feel about those around us. We can't ask for a GIFT we don't even see the need for.

I see the need for the gift of Charity in my life now. I see my true nothingness without it.

Thank you,

Tom

[Guest tomk]

After posting the above I felt led to Moroni 7:

And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope? And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise [WHAT PROMISE?]. Before, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope. And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart. If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if TOM does not have charity then TOM is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity. And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail— But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Charity:

suffereth long

is kind

envieth not

is not puffed up

seeketh not her own

is not easily provoked

thinketh no evil

rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth

beareth all things

believeth all things

hopeth all things

endureth all things.

Well, I cannot think of a better description of Christ ANYWHERE. :)

All these things I feel I lack.

Pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart

-that ye may be filled with this love,

-which he hath bestowed [iT IS A GIFT] upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ;

- AFTER THE GIFT IS GIVEN:

-We become the sons of God

-When He appears we shall be like Him

-We shall see him as he is

-We may have this hope

-We may be purified even as he is pure.

Tom

[Guest Username-Removed]

Tom,

I read your first thread and well, I guess I'll chime in again. For me, and this is just me, I am constantly disappointed by the actions of others. Because I love and trust them, I automatically think that they should reciprocate. Thus it’s not their actions that are the problem, but rather my misplaced expectations of them. The fact is many people don’t have the need for love or a feeling of love in their life. So for me, I delt with that by separating trust and love from each other. I realized that my expectations needed to be based on their actions, not my love for them.

My brother is a thug and a thief, my dad would be a good mafia member, my mom is in the dark, and my sister deals with it with substances.

They are not members, not even close. However, my Mormon family is full of love. I feel welcome every time I call or visit. They want to hear from me and I want to hear from them. I am concerned when things happen and I feel the need to help when I can. They reciprocate the same way.

Sometimes I feel that some people have never experienced UNCONDITIONAL love before. When they see it, they take and run not realizing the real prize they left behind. To them, it’s take or be taken - so they might as well take, before being taken. To them, there is no moral compass, no decernment of character, to eternal guidance.

The only thing we can do for these people is show UNCONDITIONAL LOVE but at the same time be careful with the trust we give and realize that trust is based on THEIR actions, not our love towards them.

Let’s face it, the closer we become like our Heavenly Father, the further we are from things that are not eternal! Yes, we want them to come with us, we want them to experience the joy of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, but alas, many never truly understand this concept. This is not restricted to non-members; many members have trouble with the concept of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. Perhaps its a human thing - after all, Jesus Christ was the ultimate example of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, yet so many trample on his words.

[Guest tomk]

Our sense of Justice is offended.

[Guest tomk]

WordFLOOD:

Your words are like milk and honey...without price.

You said:

"The only thing we can do for these people is show UNCONDITIONAL LOVE but at the same time be careful with the trust we give and realize that trust is based on THEIR actions, not our love towards them."

The thing I keep coming back to is:

I do not like my mother-in-law. But Christ DOES. He loves her. Has true affection for her.

I claim to follow Him, yet I have these feelings of resentment for her. I don't trust her. I really don't want to be around her. I would not deny her entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. That is between her and Christ, alone. But I don't know how to be around her right now.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Tom,

Regarding your mother in law, perhaps it might help in understanding that Heavenly Father is loving her from a position of safety. You can learn to love her, as I have learned to love my dad, but I have a lot of distance between me and him. Everytime I physically get close to my dad, its a bad deal.

Thankfully, I have no real reason to be near him everyday. Ultamately, we have to remove the bad influences in our lives, just as we remove the moat from our eye. My circle of close friends is very restricted. But I reach out to many every day. I have HOPE that I may expand those that I highly trust, and WORK hard to to find those that I can.

I wish you the best my friend.

Mark

[VisionOfLehi]

How do you LOVE them and not LIKE them?

It's just as you quoted.

Charity is the pure love of Christ.

I love plenty of people I don't like. I don't get along with them, I find their personalities or life choices hard to deal with or frustrating. I don't ENJOY their presence.

But I do not wish ill of them. If they were in need I'd still aid them. I would hope their condition in life improves, and that they find peace and righteousness. I would not want anyone to suffer. Especially if I could do something about it. I still pray for them, that they get what they need and have direction in their life, for whatever purpose.

That's how I love them without liking them.

[WANDERER]

For whatever reason, sometimes I may not bring out the best in a person. I know, hard to believe isn't it LOL. It's often interesting seeing them in a group of people and how different they are, or talking to their friends and getting their perspective or socialising in a different setting. That sounds like a very humanistic approach...but you know, God gets to see all that...I'm operating on a finite perspective and God is infinite.

I've resigned one person to L-Space LOL:they warp space and time around them (I'm a Pratchett fan). To me they are just too obscure to understand or comprehend why they do and say the things they do. I could hate them for the incomprehension they have of the real pain they cause others. But I don't. I'm quite fond of their quirkiness... it's definitely taken a while to appreciate them. I'm just not capable of expending a whole lot of energy on negative feelings...fairly phlegmatic on the whole. It doesn't do me any good at all to harbour that...and they wouldn't comprehend it anyway. I smile. Think of L-space and God's infinite understanding; perhaps I'll understand one day. If anything, it reveals more my problems than that persons. Love and grow...hate and dessicate...I think you can choose to be blessed by letting go of negative feelings that just aren't productive to anyone. I am cautious with them...but the care is about the way I react and interact with them.

[VisionOfLehi]

Oh, your kids are pretty cute in my estimation, too, tomk. Definitely something to be proud of :)

[Guest tomk]

Oh, your kids are pretty cute in my estimation, too, tomk. Definitely something to be proud of :)

Thanks!

How do you know what my kids look like?

[Guest tomk]

I understand everything that has been said.

So are you saying that Christ LOVES people He does not LIKE or want to be around?

[VisionOfLehi]

You have a pic of "your family" in your profile gallery.

[VisionOfLehi]

I understand everything that has been said.

So are you saying that Christ LOVES people He does not LIKE or want to be around?

Christ does not like being around sin. He can not look upon it with tolerance.

And sin can not be near Him. We could not stand in His presence with even a spot upon us. We would not like to be around Him, with our guilt and discomfort!

But does the love ever end either way?

[NeuroTypical]

I know I brought this up in another thread, but I feel the need to do so again, because it still is not "sticking" in my brain.

...

I know people have said that you can LOVE someone you don't LIKE.

...

I really don't get this. How can you "skip-over" LIKE and jump right over to "LOVING" that person?

I might be able to help you, Tom. Grab a box of kleenex for this.

So, I assume you love your wife. I assume you are close to her, you two try to bless each other's lives and the lives of your children. It sounds nice. Now, just for the sake of argument, assume that one day you find out your wife has been hiding a serious mental illness, and has been sexually abusing one of your children for three years. Of course I'm not accusing your wife, I'm just saying: Paint this picture for yourself, place yourself in it, and see what feelings you experience. Spend 5 or 10 minutes thinking about your reactions, about the changes it would mean for your relationship, about your duty to protect your children. Think about stewardships, about covenants made in the temple. Think about God's unilateral covenants with us, where his hand is always out, but we must be the one's to take it, and he cannot allow anything unclean to dwell in his presence.

Ok - have you gone through a few kleenex by now? If not, go back and do it until you've got some tears flowing.

Now ask yourself - in this picture, do you still love your wife? I mean, you need to protect your kid from her - she might have to go to prison for a time - she will probably require years of counseling and therapy. But do you still love her and want to see her in your family picture as the righteous matriarch of your family? I'm guessing the answer is probably yes. You want to help your kid heal, you want your wife to be healthy and dependable, and you want the miraculous healing power of the atonement to wash this horrendous thing completely out of your family's life forever. In short, you still love your wife. Now think about God - what does He think about your wife? Of course He loves your wife too.

Ok, take yourself out of that horrible picture. Thank God that you don't ever have to worry about such an awful thing. But Tom, some people do. Some parents horribly abuse their children, or see it happening and help hide it in order to protect the perpetrator. You have the ability to run through this interesting exercise and then take yourself back to your happy reality - not everybody has that luxury. But you can see how you might love someone that has done something horrible, has a dangerous character defect, etc.

So, think about your real-life situation with your relative/inlaw/whoever. Why do they do the awful things they do? Are they ill? Are they weak? Are they genetically disposed to do these things? Were they raised in an environment that shaped them into what they are? Are they openly defying God and serving satan? Do you even know the reasons they do what they do? Are you able to know?

Ok - so they tick you off, and you don't like them. They are a potential source of harm to you or your loved ones. Tell me, how can you muster such sympathy and understanding and love for a woman who molests your child, but you can't manage an ounce of compassion for the people that rub you the wrong way? It sounds like an in-your-face question, but it isn't. Why the discrepancy?

I figure if you think about it, you might come up with an answer along the lines of "In the exercise, I loved the person first, and found out about her issue later. It's different for people in my real life - I picked up on their problems as I got to know them."

Sounds reasonable. But think for a moment. Think about the veil - you used to know this person. Think about God's love - He's in the situation you were in during the exercise. Think about how these thorns in your side have people in their lives that love them. Are you certain that you can't find a small space in your heart for tender feelings of love for your relative that ticks you off?

Well, I don't know if I just wasted 15 minutes writing this or not - hopefully it helps. Sorry for the extremeness of the example - I just figured I'd pick an extreme example where the good/badness and right/wrongness is clear cut. Did it help?

LM

[Gwen]

i agree with those that have said unconditional love is essentialy defined by loving someone you don't like.

i don't recall if i shared any of this the last time you brought it up, so here it is. lol

i don't belive this requires you to love yourself unconditionaly. i believe this due to personal experiance with it.

most of the ppl i've had to love that i didn't like were family and such so i found it pretty natural and didn't even realize exactly how i did it. but then i came to the situation that i had to choose to love someone that i not only didn't like but that i really had reason to hate. that was much harder and still is. while i was trying to figure this out i had a very helpful conversation.

when your 2 yr old spills a glass of milk do you get angery, harbor resentment, etc? obviously not. why? their 2, that's what they are going to do. well for whatever reason this person can not do something different. be it addiction, personality disorder, stupidity, whatever, they can't at this moment in time behave differently than they are. quit expecting something different from them, quit taking it personaly. expect it to happen just like a child spilling a glass of milk, it's what they do.

i realized that is basicly what i had been doing for yrs with certian members of my family. it was just never concious, now i had to do it conciously.

so another thought that just came to me so it could be off base, but...

i've heard in many places by many ppl the comparison of relationships to having an emotional bank acct. interactions make deposits and withdrawls. the ppl we love have the greatest balance. those we hate are well into the red.

i think over time we eventually close accts. they remain inactive for so long and we just close them. not necessarly cause they were in the red (though those are definatly ones we choose to close), but that we only have so many accts we can manage. i think of many friendships from my childhood that just drifted as we grew up. there was a time when we'd get together and things were just like they were even though we hadn't seen eachother in yrs. then there came a day when getting together was nothing more than memories, we really didn't know eachother anymore. the acct had closed. i guess loveing but not liking is when no matter how far into the red someone is, no matter how long the acct has been inactive, we will never close that acct. when the oportunity arrises we do everything we can to get that acct out of the red, even if we never will. it's about never giving up.

[Traveler]

I am 38 and a father of three beautiful children (in my humble estimation).

I have been thinking more and more and more about relationships lately.

I know I brought this up in another thread, but I feel the need to do so again, because it still is not "sticking" in my brain. It still is not making sense, and I need things to make sense. Especially this, because I believe the answer is to be had.

I know the Lord loves me. In fact, He even LIKES me. He has true affection for me. I love feeling this from Him.

I feel like I have a general love for others, but I am troubled by my family relationships. They are the hardest.

I know people have said that you can LOVE someone you don't LIKE.

I really don't get this. How can you "skip-over" LIKE and jump right over to "LOVING" that person?

This is actually a huge thing for me to be able to even talk about. I suffered with an addiction for over 20 years. As part of that addiction I learned to bury my feelings...to "numb-out" a lot.

Now I am learning NOT to do this. To be honest about my feelings. It's not easy. My cowardice is obvious to me on both ends of the spectrum...both in burying my feelings as well as in being afraid to voice them to others.

I want to love others. Especially the ones I DO NOT like. I just don't understand how.

Maybe the reason I don't understand it is because this LOVING PEOPLE I DO NOT EVEN LIKE must come from the Lord as a blessing. As a gift. He must reveal it to me (like all other truths).

He seems to reserve especially THIS THING unto Himself. Charity, above all else, would seem to be His GIFT to us. A GIFT that flows from our honest relationship with Him, and our honesty about how we feel about those around us. We can't ask for a GIFT we don't even see the need for.

I see the need for the gift of Charity in my life now. I see my true nothingness without it.

Thank you,

Tom

Tomk: Sometimes because of the society in which we live we tend to look for easy and quick solutions. Sometimes because we believe and have had a spiritual experience we think the L-rd has completed his purpose in us and we are spiritually complete or whole (perfect according to Matt 5:48). Jesus spoke of being whole which includes something more than having our sins forgiven or being healed. It is my opinion that to become whole one must experience what Alma described as “having been stripped of your pride.” Pride is the feeling that we are superior or better than others (even in the eyes of G-d) and therefore in a position to criticize them – It is not uncommon to experience pride even if one is a saint. Pride keeps us from liking and loving others with real charity.

Sometimes when we pray for understanding and blessings from the L-rd he gives us experience through which we can come to know of things through experience of that thing. For example if we seek for strength we have experience that can (if we live through the experience with honor) give us great strength. If we desire true charity then we are blessed with experience that will stretch our current abilities in divine love and charity. Anyone can be kind to those that are kind to them – there is no honor in such kindness. A kind person is a person that is kind when no one expects it or thinks such kindness is warranted or has place. Some of us more hardened types need to experience a truly kind person that returns divine love and charity to us when we have treated them with contempt and cruelty before we can see “the light”. Some of us are never able to overcome the temptation to return contempt and cruelty to those that treat us so.

As my mission president use to say, “Your best is not good enough and good enough is not your best”. It would appear to me that you have some rather “golden opportunities”; for which I wish you more than you have tried in the past.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Our sense of Justice is offended.

I am not ofended.

I just love this name... gives me opportunity for bad puns.

Tom, I have learned that if you want to love someone all you have to do is serve them.

I'm sure you can think of something. :)

[WANDERER]

We can't control whether that person is going to act lovingly towards us or be worthy of that love. The problem there is not really loving the person, but how we deal with fear. And there are things to be fearful of in many situations where we find it difficult to love someone.

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

[Tough Grits]

Ok - so they tick you off, and you don't like them. They are a potential source of harm to you or your loved ones. Tell me, how can you muster such sympathy and understanding and love for a woman who molests your child, but you can't manage an ounce of compassion for the people that rub you the wrong way? It sounds like an in-your-face question, but it isn't. Why the discrepancy?

I figure if you think about it, you might come up with an answer along the lines of "In the exercise, I loved the person first, and found out about her issue later. It's different for people in my real life - I picked up on their problems as I got to know them."

Sounds reasonable. But think for a moment. Think about the veil - you used to know this person. Think about God's love - He's in the situation you were in during the exercise. Think about how these thorns in your side have people in their lives that love them. Are you certain that you can't find a small space in your heart for tender feelings of love for your relative that ticks you off?LM

Loudmouth,

What you said truly touched me.

I was having some problems with a few people a few years ago. Somebody who knew me very well, one day made this comment, "I just don't understand how you could forgive a family member who molested you, but you cannot forgive and let go of what [certain people] are doing to you."

I had no answer at that time.

I do now. I DO forgive the family member who hurt me. But that did not happen in an instant. It has taken me a LONG time of introspection, maturity, love, forgiveness, and understanding to overcome my tremendous hurt and pain over what that person did.

Yes, I forgave. Yes I actually love this person and can hug them and give them sincere affection now.

Well guess what? I can now do the same to the very people that I could not ever imagine myself ever hugging or wanting to be around again.

It took time. For me, it also took distance. Being completely removed from the situation and removed from the offenders had a tremendous part to play in my healing. No, they are not my favorite people. But I do love them. I wish them well.

There was a time and point where even thinking of them physically affected me. Thinking of them caused me physical, emotional, and mental pain. My spirit became affected too, but mostly because I had lost my grip on my anger and resentment towards them.

Like I said, time and distance truly helped me to heal. I have learned, through this process, that we always have a choice. They did not MAKE me angry. They did not MAKE me resent them. They did make poor choices, but I made some poor choices too. I handled the situation the best that I could with what I knew at the time.

I have to learned to forgive myself too. But in forgiving myself, I began to see that maybe they were merely doing the best that they could do at the time too. Although their best and my best apparently fell WAY too short of the mark...we all were doing what we thought was right. We all had accountability for all the pain that was caused by all the things we said and did to each other.

Things seem so much better once they are past. But I can look to my life now and see where there are some pretty nasty thorns among the roses. I am just trying my best to learn from the whole awful situation a few years ago, and I am trying to not let it happen again.

Tom, it is part of your journey right now to go through this. Hopefully, one day you will look back on this chapter with understanding and clarity. Hopefully, you will reach a point where this chapter in your life no longer causes you pain or strife.

I love you. I feel for you, because the questions you are asking were questions that I was asking three/four years ago. I went through the refiners fire. It got real hot before it ever got any cooler...but I made it. And there will always be a new refiners fire waiting for me as soon as I emerge from the old one.

This too shall pass. Just remember to reach out to those who you DO feel safe with, and alow them to sooth your wounds, allow them to lift you up when you feel down. Yes, you have Heavenly Father, but sometimes He uses His own children to answer the prayers of others.

~TG

[MorningStar]

There are people I generally don't like, but I usually like something about them and I try to focus on that. :) It's helpful.

[Guest tomk]

Pondering these questions exposes the hypocrisy in us all.

I appreciate the responses...they are good as far as they go. I am just not sure they go "far enough."

The Lord CAN and He DOES "get around sin." He routinely hung around those who suffered from the effects of all manner of unrepented sin. Our sins are no barrier to His love and they do not prevent Him from coming to us.

He not only loves us - He likes us. He has genuine affection for us. He likes being around us. He'll become as close to us as WE allow Him to be -- through our honesty and our expressed desire to repent and do better.

I want to ask the question again.

Can we really love someone we do not even like?

Think really hard about this before you answer.

What allows Christ to like us, not just love us?

For I feel from Him not just LOVE -- but real genuine affection!!!!!

If such were not the case - I do not think I would be motivated to change for the right reasons. If I spend eternity with Him and Father -- I want them to like me, not just love me or tolerate me.

Please consider my question carefully before responding. :)

[WANDERER]

Yes, Tom, for sacrificial love I think it is.

[Tough Grits]

Time is a concept that only humans grapple with.

What if "like" was only a concept that humans grappled with?

What if God only knows love. Period. He loves all of us with a depth that we can never comprehend. What if "like" never even enters the picture for Him?

We humans can be peculiar in the things that consume us. Nearly all of us are consumed by "time" but it is something that we have constructed. All things are eternal with God. One hour to us is not the same hour to Him. Time is our issue.

What if "like" was our issue too? What if it makes us feel better to say that we love somebody, but we do not like them? Does the "like" even matter once we acknowledge the love that we profess to have for that person? Why do most of us have to qualify our love for others with, "but I do not like them." Why does that matter?

What if when we thought or said out loud that we loved so-and-so, we just stopped there? What if we did not go on to expound on how we disliked or distrusted that person? Would it make an impression on others that we only spoke of the love we had for others, without mentioning the dislike or distrust? Would it have a profound effect upon us if we quit thinking of the dislike or distrust for somebody, and only ever think of the love?

I just can't picture my Heavenly Father sitting up in Heaven telling the other angels how He loves so-and-so, but that he does not like them or trust them.

I can only picture Him speaking of His great love and concern for us. Period. With no disclaimer added.

Just something that came to me as I was getting ready this morning.

Pretend it made sense and that it was something profound!!!!

[Guest tomk]

Time is a concept that only humans grapple with.

What if "like" was only a concept that humans grappled with?

What if God only knows love. Period. He loves all of us with a depth that we can never comprehend. What if "like" never even enters the picture for Him?

We humans can be peculiar in the things that consume us. Nearly all of us are consumed by "time" but it is something that we have constructed. All things are eternal with God. One hour to us is not the same hour to Him. Time is our issue.

What if "like" was our issue too? What if it makes us feel better to say that we love somebody, but we do not like them? Does the "like" even matter once we acknowledge the love that we profess to have for that person? Why do most of us have to qualify our love for others with, "but I do not like them." Why does that matter?

What if when we thought or said out loud that we loved so-and-so, we just stopped there? What if we did not go on to expound on how we disliked or distrusted that person? Would it make an impression on others that we only spoke of the love we had for others, without mentioning the dislike or distrust? Would it have a profound effect upon us if we quit thinking of the dislike or distrust for somebody, and only ever think of the love?

I just can't picture my Heavenly Father sitting up in Heaven telling the other angels how He loves so-and-so, but that he does not like them or trust them.

I can only picture Him speaking of His great love and concern for us. Period. With no disclaimer added.

Just something that came to me as I was getting ready this morning.

Pretend it made sense and that it was something profound!!!!

This actually makes sense to me.

"LIKING SOMONE" must be a construct of the carnal man. Just like LUST is not LOVE, "LIKE" is not LOVE either. Therefore, we can lump "LIKING SOMONE" into the same category as "LUSTING FOR SOMEONE" -- both forms are taking ACTUAL love and perverting it into something else.

In other words -- there is just LOVING someone in eternal realms. There is no such thing as LIKING someone! Very very interesting!

I think that is part of my point. It can't be that God doesn't like us. For if I feel affection from Him, then the same is true for everyone around me, for He is no respecter of persons.

Perhaps it has more to do with OUR desire to grow in the relationship with Him, and with others.

I want to look at His words again:

37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.

38 And behold, it is written, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;

39 But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also;

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also;

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away.

43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;

44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

46 Therefore those things which were of old time, which were under the law, in me are all fulfilled.

47 Old things are done away, and all things have become new.

48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

This is a commandment from the Lord Himself:

Love your enemies

Bless them that curse you

Do good to them that hate you

Pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you

That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

For the truth remains -- they are, ALL OF THEM, my brothers and sisters!!

The fact that we are family did not change just because we came down here. Our treatment of each other is not what it once was. Our treatment of each other is horrible, much of the time! But God understands why this treatment is happening. We labor under the veil of forgetfulness. We labor under the effects of the Fall. We have bodies that crave different things than our spirits.

But God stands just on the other side of the veil. Inviting and enticing. Trying to get us to love each other like we once did.

How do we feel as parents when we watch our children fight? We feel bad. We wish they would try to get along, and we do our best to teach them and encourage them. Father is no different. Our situation is no different. We all need to learn to love each other and get along, even with our handicap of the veil and the Fall in place. Even with those realities, the Father still asks us to love each other, even our brother and sisters who seem to be outright "enemies." To bless our brothers and sisters that curse us, to do good to our brothers and sisters who hate us, and pray for our brothers and sisters who despitefully use us and persecute us.

Now the next verse makes more sense:

That [we] may be the children of [our] Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the "evil children" and on the "good children".

Thanks Tough!!!!

[Guest Xzain]

tomk, I admire you for starting such an open and honest thread.

"LIKING SOMONE" must be a construct of the carnal man. Just like LUST is not LOVE, "LIKE" is not LOVE either. Therefore, we can lump "LIKING SOMONE" into the same category as "LUSTING FOR SOMEONE" -- both forms are taking ACTUAL love and perverting it into something else.

Something to think about- lust, in and of itself, is not necessarily bad (depending on your definition). Lust, by itself, is not love, and if acted upon is perverse. However, within the bonds of marriage, 'lust' (if we define it as 'sexual attraction and desire') becomes a very good thing, if channeled properly. Because sexual attraction is a holy thing if used correctly, I do not believe it is a construct of man.

Nor do I personally believe 'liking' someone is a construct of man, but another aspect of charity. To 'like' someone and to 'love' someone are different emotions, albeit interrelated. To 'like' someone is to enjoy aspects of another's character; to 'love' someone can be to love them as a child of God and feel deep emotion for them. One of the hardest kind of relationships one can have is to love another whom one doesn't like because of the other's sinful lifestyle.

We can certainly love someone without liking them- indeed, as you said earlier, we are commanded to do so. 'Liking' someone is a different matter, and our liking others is facilitated by focusing on their positive character traits and not their negative ones. Liking someone can lead to loving them, and vice versa.

I encourage you to continue your pondering and discussion- we all must come to spiritual understanding through our own journeys. Again, I admire you for being so open and honest about the whole thing.

-Xzain