What is and isn't doctrine?

[GoodK]

It was brought up in another thread that everything the prophets, general authorities, and church leaders produce is considered official church doctrine. I find this to be contradictory to much of what I have heard in LDS apologetics. Perhaps those that make this claim are unfamiliar with apologetics or objective church history, or maybe more people believe this to be true than I thought. Any one else subscribe to this theory - that everything the prophets, GA's and church leaders say in print or from the pulpit is considered official church doctrine? I'd love to hear more from either side.

Best,

GoodK

[skalenfehl]

Personally speaking, I believe that what prophets and apostles say is scripture and doctrine. Ezra Taft Benson said that prophets do not have to say "Thus sayeth the Lord" for something to be scripture. That said, I know that there have been questionable things said by General Authorities, but even the prophets since the time of Adam have always been questioned. Even the Jews wanted to stone Christ for saying "outrageous" things.

I think that there are some things that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and other prophets since their time have said that are way too meaty for us. I also believe that all mankind is at different stages of understanding truth. I believe that truth is found everywhere and in all churches and faiths. I also believe that that fullness of truth is found in our church.

[KosherXMorg]

So Brigham's statements about blacks from the pulpit at Conference are just "too meaty" for the current membership? If this is the case about Brigham and others statements, what does that say about the current membership of the church? It would seem to indicate they have been going backwards in spiritual progress, not forward.

[GoodK]

What does "way too meaty" mean? Too hard to understand, or not worth understanding as much as obeying.

Is it still doctrine, if it is way too meaty? I can think of a lot of things prophets and general authorities have said - or even other church leaders - that is not currently accepted as doctrine.

What about Brigham Young's Adam-God theory? Or what Joseph Smith and Spencer W Kimball said about the native American's? Or what Joseph said about the Aborigini's? Or what the first presidency has said about the Hill Cumorah?

[skalenfehl]

So Brigham's statements about blacks from the pulpit at Conference are just "too meaty" for the current membership? If this is the case about Brigham and others statements, what does that say about the current membership of the church? It would seem to indicate they have been going backwards in spiritual progress, not forward.

Will you please cite what he said and quote the sources?

[skalenfehl]

What does "way too meaty" mean? Too hard to understand, or not worth understanding as much as obeying.

Is it still doctrine, if it is way too meaty? I can think of a lot of things prophets and general authorities have said - or even other church leaders - that is not currently accepted as doctrine.

What about Brigham Young's Adam-God theory? Or what Joseph Smith and Spencer W Kimball said about the native American's? Or what Joseph said about the Aborigini's? Or what the first presidency has said about the Hill Cumorah?

I won't pretend to understand everything that the prophets have said. I'm still working on Isaiah. would you please cite what they said and/or quote the sources? I have read some of the things, but not all and certainly not in their full contexts. As such I probably wouldn't be qualified to intelligently respond until I have reviewed all the information and prayed about and pondered them.

Edited June 11, 2008 by skalenfehl

[GoodK]

I won't pretend to understand everything that the prophets have said. I'm still working on Isaiah. would you please cite what they said and/or quote the sources? I have read some of the things, but not all and certainly not in their full contexts. As such I probably wouldn't be qualified to intelligently respond until I have reviewed all the information and prayed about and pondered them.

Let's take it piece by piece. Forgive me for relying on the internet, I am at my office and don't have the resources on my bookshelf I would normally turn to.

I'll start with the Brigham Young Adam-God theory:

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal."

Brigham Young, "Discourse," Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt (9 April 1852), Vol. 1 (London: Latter-day Saint's Book Depot, 1854), 50–51.

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works."

Bruce R. McConkie, letter to Eugene England, (19 February 1981): 6.

Adam-God - FAIRMormon

[WANDERER]

From what I understand the focus is on what is upheld by the current Prophet as where God wants the church to be at the given time and this can change according to new revelation. Would that be correct?

[KosherXMorg]

Will you please cite what he said and quote the sources?

Sure...

Untitled Document

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion."

[Guest User-Removed]

Sure...

Untitled Document

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion."

AH...The true Apostate finally shines through...Kosher...EVERYONE, knows that the JOD is only "Doctrine" to those like you who enjoy slagging and attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints....

Shall I post some of your Doctrine, from the church you founded???

Are you here trawling for new members????

[HiJolly]

It was brought up in another thread that everything the prophets, general authorities, and church leaders produce is considered official church doctrine. I find this to be contradictory to much of what I have heard in LDS apologetics. Perhaps those that make this claim are unfamiliar with apologetics or objective church history, or maybe more people believe this to be true than I thought. Any one else subscribe to this theory - that everything the prophets, GA's and church leaders say in print or from the pulpit is considered official church doctrine? I'd love to hear more from either side.

Best,

GoodK

LDS Newsroom - Approaching Mormon Doctrine

HiJolly

[KosherXMorg]

AH...The true Apostate finally shines through...Kosher...EVERYONE, knows that the JOD is only "Doctrine" to those like you who enjoy slagging and attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints....

Shall I post some of your Doctrine, from the church you founded???

Are you here trawling for new members????

You need to learn to follow the discussion, Skip. I wasn't claiming it as your doctrine, but Ska said he believed what has been stated by your prophets was true but just "too meaty" for the membership. I was simply reminding him of some of the stuff said from the pulpit by an early church leader. "Me thinks he doth protest too much" your anger is just a defense mechanism to silence the doubts within your own mind concerning these issue. I do hope you'll forgo any cursing or false accusations concerning my sexuality in your response to this post.

[Hemidakota]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - I Have a Question

Some interesting points

[Guest User-Removed]

Will you please cite what he said and quote the sources?

Skale...Watch Kosher on this one...The website he posted is owned and operated by apostates. The Nuttall's are all fundie whack jobs. a "whois" check of the website Kosher posted, shows that it's registered to Bonnie Nuttall of Eagle Moutain, Utah.

Folks in Utah County are all too aware of the polygamy problems occurring in Eagle Mountain.

[Moksha]

Will you please cite what he said and quote the sources?

I am uncertain if you want to hear all the quotes. They are rather uncomplimentary.

[GoodK]

When I see loud, big, colorful font - I usually learn to avoid those posters. Those posters seem to have the least amount to contribute, at least they think so. Otherwise they wouldn't try so hard to grab our attention.

[GoodK]

Skale...Watch Kosher on this one...The website he posted is owned and operated by apostates. The Nuttall's are all fundie whack jobs. a "whois" check of the website Kosher posted, shows that it's registered to Bonnie Nuttall of Eagle Moutain, Utah.

Folks in Utah County are all too aware of the polygamy problems occurring in Eagle Mountain.

He cited the JOD, for crying out loud. Who cares what server is hosting the information. This sort of "apologetics" is shameful. Address the issues, stop attacking sources. That sort of tactic is better reserved for posters at CARM.

[Moksha]

AH...The true Apostate finally shines through...Kosher...EVERYONE, knows that the JOD is only "Doctrine" to those like you who enjoy slagging and attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints....

Shall I post some of your Doctrine, from the church you founded???

Are you here trawling for new members????

Yikes, quoting from BY puts one in an apostate position and in big red letters to boot? Plus you have him founding a Church and are going to quote his doctrine to him?

[KosherXMorg]

Skale...Watch Kosher on this one...The website he posted is owned and operated by apostates. The Nuttall's are all fundie whack jobs. a "whois" check of the website Kosher posted, shows that it's registered to Bonnie Nuttall of Eagle Moutain, Utah.

Folks in Utah County are all too aware of the polygamy problems occurring in Eagle Mountain.

Be careful not to confuse the Apostolic United Brethren with the FLDS. Don't use people ignorance of the varying groups and their practices as a tool to deflect attention away from the quote itself.

[Hemidakota]

Skip, I wholeheartedly agree [trawling].

[Guest User-Removed]

Let's take it piece by piece. Forgive me for relying on the internet, I am at my office and don't have the resources on my bookshelf I would normally turn to.

I'll start with the Brigham Young Adam-God theory:

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal."

Brigham Young, "Discourse," Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt (9 April 1852), Vol. 1 (London: Latter-day Saint's Book Depot, 1854), 50–51.

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works."

Bruce R. McConkie, letter to Eugene England, (19 February 1981): 6.

Adam-God - FAIRMormon

Well...Since Adam was Michael...and Michael along with Jehovah, underthe direction of Elohim created this world...and many others...I guess that would make Michael a god?

Now, since Michael became Adam...and until the Fall possessed a "Celestial Body" in the Garden...I guess the Prophet Brigham is right in this aspect. NOW...Since Adam is the earthly Father of all of us....I guess the Prophet Brigham ain't lying on this point either????

So........Tell me why you're sooooooooooo fascinated in the "Adam-God" theory?????

Cause to date, I've only found anti's and apostates who like talking about it?

Not saying you're either...I'm just a little bit curious...

[KosherXMorg]

Well...Since Adam was Michael...and Michael along with Jehovah, underthe direction of Elohim created this world...and many others...I guess that would make Michael a god?

Now, since Michael became Adam...and until the Fall possessed a "Celestial Body" in the Garden...I guess the Prophet Brigham is right in this aspect. NOW...Since Adam is the earthly Father of all of us....I guess the Prophet Brigham ain't lying on this point either????

So........Tell me why you're sooooooooooo fascinated in the "Adam-God" theory?????

Cause to date, I've only found anti's and apostates who like talking about it?

Not saying you're either...I'm just a little bit curious...

You know Skip, that at various times BY clearly identified Adam/Michael as the Father not only of our bodies but of our spirits also. Should I link to the Rodney Turner BYU thesis?

[GoodK]

Well...Since Adam was Michael...and Michael along with Jehovah, underthe direction of Elohim created this world...and many others...I guess that would make Michael a god?

Now, since Michael became Adam...and until the Fall possessed a "Celestial Body" in the Garden...I guess the Prophet Brigham is right in this aspect. NOW...Since Adam is the earthly Father of all of us....I guess the Prophet Brigham ain't lying on this point either????

So........Tell me why you're sooooooooooo fascinated in the "Adam-God" theory?????

Cause to date, I've only found anti's and apostates who like talking about it?

Not saying you're either...I'm just a little bit curious...

I'm sure it would be extremely beneficial to you if I was able to do all your homework for you, but unfortunately I cannot. If you do not care to read things in context - or even an entire thread from beginning to end - why even participate in the discussion? To vent? To express your distasted for other posters?

So please, my attention seeking brother/sister, stop beating up that straw man. Apparently you are too eager to post your opinion to see the quote from Elder Mconkie saying that what BY taught regarding Adam-God was not true.

Please, take some time to catch up and then get back to us. In regular size and color font.

[Hemidakota]

You know Skip, that at various times BY clearly identified Adam/Michael as the Father not only of our bodies but of our spirits also. Should I link to the Rodney Turner BYU thesis?

Link the article.

[Hemidakota]

I'm sure it would be extremely beneficial to you if I was able to do all your homework for you, but unfortunately I cannot. If you do not care to read things in context - or even an entire thread from beginning to end - why even participate in the discussion? To vent? To express your distasted for other posters?

So please, my attention seeking brother/sister, stop beating up that straw man. Apparently you are too eager to post your opinion to see the quote from Elder Mconkie saying that what BY taught regarding Adam-God was not true.

Please, take some time to catch up and then get back to us. In regular size and color font.

Why? There is no strain here unless you need to borrow my glasses.