What is the Plan of Satan?

[Dr T]

So are you saying that an all powerful, omni everything being needed advice on what to do with that topic?

[Hemidakota]

Mailis - I simply don't see Lucifer or his minions ruling in chaos.

[NateHowe]

In the premortal life, two plans were not presented. There was one plan, authored by the Father. The plan was for us to come to Earth, receive physical bodies, and learn good and evil through experience.

Lucifer and Christ had very different views on how to fulfill this plan. Lucifer wanted the glory for himself, and wanted to force every child of God to salvation. Christ gave the glory to the Father and provided the way for each of us to choose salvation.

Lucifer's approach was not a second plan - it was a rebellion from the one plan authored by the Father.

[Dr T]

Is that traditional LDS belief or neo LDS belief Nate? Thank you

[Guest lauracooke78]

In this world today, like Christ stood alone as the one savior, I can see only ONE example of government and ONE example of religion that show that Heavenly Father's plan/message is being taught.

1. Government: The original constitution of the USA - but even that has been manipulated and is being used by evil people to bring it's people into bondage.

2. Religion: The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints.

And other than those we have communist/socialist societies hell bent on "forcing" it's people into giving to the poor through wealth distribution (of course USA does this as well, thanks to it's left governments of the past instituting it) and forcing religious restrictions and political correctness on us all... This is cloaked in the virtue of (as Ram said before) "assuring a home, a job and health care for all."

Then if we look at the rest of religions in the world. Yes there are lots of good people with good intentions, but like Ram said, they preach the doctrine of Salvation by singing "Hallaluiah, I believe". On top of that, they preach tolerance of sin. Some even preach that the Savior did not even resurrect himself. And don't forget the doctrine of social justice (which is espoused with socialism).

Humans will always do better when they are free to choose.

[Traveler]

There are many good comments - I hope many of you are enjoying reading the information in the posts.

According to LDS doctrine there were two elements of Satan's plan that deserve particular attention.

1. To end the use of the powers of divine love and grace. Satan's plan was to do away with these elements in determining the affairs of the Kingdom of heaven. There are many that struggle with the role of the grace and love of G-d in determining what will be.

2. To end the exercise of agency within man. From some post I am not sure agency is understood. For example – if you were to purchase insurance for you car you would contract for that insurance through an agency of the provider. The choice we were given in agency is to become an agent of the Father or of Lucifer but the choice was ours. Lucifer wanted to only allow agency to those whom he chose.

Please continue your responses -In light of #2 can any of you see why Michael and his followers removed Satan from heaven and not the Father?

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

I've read a few posts through this thread. In my estimation, Satan's plan is simple:

To do what has been done in other worlds--to thwart the Plan of Salvation and drag as many souls down to hell with him as possible (Misery loves company).

[skalenfehl]

I forgot about this part:

And the final question: Where and how do we encouter Satan's plan as he first presented it in heaven?

We encountered Lucifer's plan when the Plan of Salvation was introduced to us. Satan had a plan of his own and he wanted the glory and the kingdom. He wanted to exalt himself above everyone else.

I find it fascinating that we read in the scriptures that we will be judged by our works and the desire of our hearts. Satan worked for his own kingdom without the agency of man and he succeeded in persuaded a third of the hosts of heaven to join him. He will get exactly what he wants. He will have his kingdom and he is working hard to drag down as many subjects as he can with him.

[rameumptom]

Is that traditional LDS belief or neo LDS belief Nate? Thank you

If one reads Abraham 3 in light of Moses 4, one sees there was only one plan of salvation. The only question God brought up in the Grand Council was: "Whom shall I send?"

We did not sustain God's plan. We sustained Jesus as our Savior, with the plan enfolded in the Savior's work.

Whether Satan sought power to control everyone, or wanted power in order to save everyone, we do not know for certain. In his mind, and in the mind of his followers, he must have felt he was doing a great service.

[VisionOfLehi]

That's so hard to imagine. I'm sure we lost many good friends because of this choice. It's hard to conceive that someone would make a conscious decision to rebel and lose any chance of blessings that HF has for us.

Lucifer was one of our beloved friends you refer to.

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

It was a tragedy.

If he could choose it by himself, I'm sure other brothers and sisters could've come to that, too. That IS hard to conceive.

I'm glad I don't have to, and that I made the right choice, to be here.

:)

[Dr T]

VoL, he was never my friend brother.

[NateHowe]

Is that traditional LDS belief or neo LDS belief Nate? Thank you

That's what the scriptures indicate (see Rameumptom's post). That is not to say that Satan has no plan - his plan is certainly to ensnare as many of us as possible. But in the premortal realm, we were not having a referrendum on whether God's plan was better than Lucifer's. We knew God's plan was, well, the plan. Lucifer rebelled against it, and a third of the host of heaven followed him.

From lds.org:

In harmony with the plan of happiness, the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior (see Moses 4:2; Abraham 3:27). Those who followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were permitted to come to the earth to experience mortality and progress toward eternal life. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and "sought to destroy the agency of man" (Moses 4:3). He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality (see Moses 4:4; Abraham 3:27–28).

(Emphasis added. Reference: LDS.org - Topic Definition - Plan of Salvation)

To me, this seems pretty clear. Edited June 17, 2008 by NateHowe
to close my parentheses

[Hemidakota]

That's what the scriptures indicate (see Rameumptom's post). That is not to say that Satan has no plan - his plan is certainly to ensnare as many of us as possible. But in the premortal realm, we were not having a referrendum on whether God's plan was better than Lucifer's. We knew God's plan was, well, the plan. Lucifer rebelled against it, and a third of the host of heaven followed him.

From lds.org:

To me, this seems pretty clear.

I don't believe Lucifer was fully aware of the complete plan of the Gospel of Jesus Christ [Plan of Salvation] when it was given after the minions were casted out.

[Guest tomk]

I am not sure I believe it was "WAR" or that Lucifer was "escorted" out of heaven. That is all very dramatic, but I am not so sure it happened like that.

I think Lucifer just -- left. He chose to leave. Had to leave. Eternal Law dictated that he had to leave Father's presence.

Heavenly Father does everything in accordance with eternal law. That which abides by eternal law can dwell in His presence. Lucifer did not, and so could not remain.

Lucifer became Satan by his own free will and choice. Everything he did and is still doing is by his own free will and choice. He is deliberately going about trying to rob us of our agency STILL. The "battle" never ended. It just changed venues.

Agency reigns supreme. We receive Exaltation, as a GIFT, through our choices. We also choose Perdition through our choices. Neither God nor Satan have any power to MAKE us do anything. Job was a great example of this. We may lose everything in this world, have everything taken from us -- but we cannot be MADE to DO anything. Job still had choice, and exercised that choice to love God and remain faithful. Such is the case with each one of us.

[Hemidakota]

President Harold B. Lee taught:

The scriptures speak of premortal agency and foreordination. The word of the Lord came also to Jeremiah the prophet, saying that before he was born the Lord "sanctified [him], and ordained [him] a prophet unto the nations" (Jeremiah 1:5). These and other similar scriptures (see Abraham 3:22-23) make it plain that man existed in a spiritual condition before coming here to this earth and that in that pre-existence he had his free agency or right to choose. How could some of those spirits as seen by Abraham have become noble and great except by faithfulness to God's cause? How came God to choose Abraham or Jeremiah before they were born? If we had the complete answer to these questions, we would no doubt learn that they and others stood up valiantly with Michael and his angels when "there was war in heaven" and Satan "and his angels were cast out" of heaven for rebellion (see Revelation 12:7-12). (45-19, pp. 163-64) Teachings of Harold B. Lee, [The Plan of Salvation], by Harold B. Lee

Our cultural definition of what is war and what is mean't in a pre-mortal sense may not be the same as you alluded too.

[beefche]

Tomk, the scriptures tell us it was a war. Perhaps not like the wars we see here on earth, but I believe it was a war. I looked up the meaning of "war" in the dictionary. It states that it's a conflict, contest, or active hostility or contention. IMO, that describes the war in the pre-mortal life.

I imagine Satan and his followers were trying to persuade us to join them, to agree with them, to believe they were correct. I would imagine that their arguments and persuasions were like what is used here on earth--appealing to our intellect, power, passions. Some of us who chose Christ may have had conflicts and I imagine some missionary work on our side was going on as well. I would think Satan and his followers would be hostile when their efforts were being countered by Christ's followers.

I do agree that Satan's leave may not have been dramatic. We are told that we cannot abide being in the presence of good when we have done sin/evil. Kind of the opposite of God--Who cannot abide sin. I'm thinking it was a mutual agreement for leave taking.

You said something that is interesting. HF abides by laws. Satan was rebelling against living by a law(s). He wanted to ensure (force) everyone to accept HF plan--thus breaking the law of agency. (I suppose I always knew this, just didn't "know" it.)

[Hemidakota]

Elder B.H. Roberts discussed this principle in "Seventy's Course in Theology, vol. 4" concerning the meaning of the War in Heaven.

[Footnotes added for references]

2. The Hebrew Scriptures on the War in Heaven: In the very beginning of the Hebrew scripture God, in the creation, is represented as addressing others engaged with him in the creation work: "And God said let us make man in our image, after our likeness." 1 Then after the Fall: "And the Lord God said: Behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil." 2 Perfectly blending with this idea of a plurality of divine Intelligences engaging in the work of creation is the Lord's question to Job: "Gird up now thy loins like a man, for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me: Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" 3

It seems, then, that there were sons of God before the foundations of the earth were laid, or even the measuring line was stretched upon it. And may it not have been these Sons of God, whom God addressed in the creation work, saying to them: "Let us make man in our image"—"The man has become as one of us?"

On the return of the Seventy whom Jesus sent out on a special mission into every city and place where he himself proposed to go, they said: "Lord, even the devils are subject to us in thy name." To which Jesus answered: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke x:17, 18). As if he would say, "Your victory over evil spirits in my name, is not the first I have won over Satan. I saw him as lightning fall from heaven." 4 One other reference to Lucifer in this same connection is made by the Christ; when addressing contentious Jews, he said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it." 5

In the Book of Revelation, however, and also in Jude, this "war in heaven" is more minutely described. In the former it is said:

"And there was a war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of thier testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." 6

And this from Jude: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6). Peter also alludes to this even when he says: "God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (II Peter ii:4). 7

2. Modern Scriptures on the War in Heaven: These are the scripture passages which I said in a vague way represent both the pre-earth existence of Intelligences, and a state of strife, struggle, rebellion, war; attended with the loss of "first estate," and place in heaven, being thrust out into outer darkness. But what the point of controversy, the cause of difference upon which the "war" was based—all this we are left in ignorance of in these scriptures; and even in those other scriptures yet to be quoted, the brevity is painful, and yet they shed great light upon conditions that one feels must have existed in heaven, from the passages of Hebrew scripture massed above. In the Doctrine and Covenants occurs the following passage:

"Behold, the Devil was before Adam [speaking of Adam in the Garden of Eden, and of his temptation], for he rebelled against me, saying give me thine honor, which is my power; also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; and they were thrust down and became the Devil and his angels. And behold there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell." 8

Again, in the revelation called the "Vision," or "Vision of the Three Glories," the Prophet says:

"And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son, whom the Father loved, and who was in the bosom of the Father—was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son. And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning. And we beheld and lo, he is fallen! is fallen! even a son of the morning. And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision, for we beheld Satan, that old serpent—even the Devil—who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God, and his Christ." 9

The Book of Abraham, after representing God's purpose to create an earth in order that the Intelligences in the midst of whom he dwelt might have earth-existence, and be put in the way of eternal progress (Ch. iii:24,26), then asks: "Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him" (Book of Abraham, Ch. iii:27-28).

Again in the Book of Moses (Pearl of Great Price), after detailing an experience which Moses had with Satan, the Lord said to him:

"That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying: Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. But, behold, my beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me, Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; and he became Satan, yea, even the Devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice." 10

This last passage from the Book of Abraham discloses the important truth that this war in heaven was connected with a controversy concerning the redemption of man from conditions in which, apparently, the contemplated earth-life would involve him. The controversy concerned also the choice of One to perform this work of redemption. Two offered themselves, but the terms of one involved at least the sacrifice of two mighty principles; one, the agency of man; the other, the honor and glory of God. "Here am I, Father, send me," said the Christ. Then Lucifer—the Light Bearer, and "one in authority in the presence of God"—said: "Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy Son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor." But the first spake again, saying, 11 "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever." Whereupon the election fell upon the Christ, and Lucifer rebelled.

Footnotes

1. As side reading, I suggest "Milton's Paradise Lost," and Elder Orson F. Whitney's "Elias," Canto III.

SPECIAL TEXT: "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out. . . He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. xii:7-9.)

2. Gen. i:26.

3. Gen. iii:22.

4. Job xxxviii:4-7.

5. There is much confusion among the commentators on this passage c. f. Jamieson—Fausset-Brown with the International Revision Commentary on the passage. Dummelow's Commentary, however, says: "Our Lord poetically compares Satan's discomfiture at the successful mission of the Seventy, to his original fall from heaven." He also regards John viii:44, as referring to the same event.

6. St. John viii:44.

7. Rev. xii:7-12.

8. It is upon these declarations of Scripture that Milton has based his gorgeous epic, "Paradise Lost."

9. Doc. & Cov., Sec. 29:36-38.

10. Doc. & Cov., Sec. 76:25-38.

11. Book of Moses iv:1-4.

He also stated in the footnote of the course of studies:

I am presenting the order of events here as they may be implied from the two accounts here presented, one from the Book of Abraham, the other from the Book of Moses. The former is a very brief statement, the latter, more elaborate.