The drugs debate

[skalenfehl]

Fascism is defined by Wikipedia as authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.

Because I don't believe anyone should do drugs is my prerogative as is someone's prerogative to believe that everyone should do drugs and that marijuana should be legalized. Where one crosses the line into Fascism is when one seeks to enforce this by totalitarian attempts to impose state control for example through a dictatorship and oppressive measures. Just because someone thinks it should be legal or doesn't think it should be legal does not make one Fascist. There is a difference between believing that nobody should or should not hurt themselves and then usurping power to enforce it.

Liberty functions from the bottom up (we the people), not dictated from the top down. So if the majority of the people vote in a Democracy to legalize drugs, then that is the law of the land and we believe in honoring the law, though I will never do drugs, I'd have now be more careful of its exposure to my family. So yes, something should be legal or illegal because the majority voted this way (abortion, legalizing drugs, etc), though it doesn't necessarily make it right. The voice of the people have spoken. The point of this debate is does it affect someone else? My answer is yes! I have lived through the effects of someone else doing drugs that have affected both my boys who have done it all.

If I were to go home, and smoke a big 'ol bowl of marijauna, how does that effect you at all? How does it effect my family at all?

There are many people across the country who smoke marijuana in the privacy of their own home unaware that the fumes make their way into the apartment above, where an elderly man lives or perhaps mixing chemicals to make meth while the ammonia fumes seep into the next room where a child is playing. There are countless meth labs in the country where something goes wrong and in an explosion takes out the criminal along with the neighboring family, who is barbecuing next door. There are countless children, including my adopted son who was born a crack baby because his biological mother chose to do every drug in the book and in an altered state of mind decided to sleep around and have many children. There is a supplier dealing right now without any concern for the consequences of who his drugs reach when he deals with someone who just wants to smoke it by himself without hurting anyone. Meanwhile the profit that he creates for his supplier, supporting his business is used to make more drugs, which end up at the elementary school down my street and into the hands of my neighbor's children who become addicted and pass it on to my children or my nieces and nephews.

Should we outlaw knifes because people have been stabbed? Guns because people have been shot? Rope because people have been hung? The argument that they can be used to commit a crime is flawed. Not EVERYONE who has used recreational drugs has ruined their life, or the lives of others.

You are right. Guns don't kill people, knives don't kill people, ropes don't kill people. People kill people, drug dealers kill people. But guns are also used for hunting for food for survival, and also for sport and other recreational activities. Knives are implements used for a vast variety of reasons such as surgical procedures, cutting up food, or carving a sculpture and creating art. Ropes also have a wide range of uses, such as tying up packages or saving a life with a life preserver attached. Ropes are used for securing things to your car when you go on long trips or for construction. The list goes on and on.

What beneficial uses does crystal meth have? Cocaine? PCP? etc? If someone wants to do drugs, they cannot intelligently believe that doing drugs does not have an effect on someone else because it does. They perpetuate the supply and demand which trickles down to the average innocent child because the hardened drug dealers do not care who ends up with drugs. Their only concern is the profit that it brings.

Many drugs are regulated. If marijuana has medicinal benefits then it should be regulated like any prescription drug that you buy at a pharmacy. If by some bizarre coincidence, crystal meth in a certain safe dose cures brain cancer, then by all means, let it be produced and regulated. The problem that I see here is that drugs have no beneficial purpose other than to harm, destroy or kill whether it's yourself or someone else and it's the someone else, especially someone else, that concerns me because someone else is always affected.

Regardless of what country or set of laws we live, we are all human beings living in the same world and drugs are not something that knows boundaries or borders. I will never vote to legalize something just because someone wants to do it to themselves, because that kind of irresponsible thinking does not see reason through. They simply aren't doing it to just themselves.

If you disagree with drug use, DON'T DO DRUGS! But telling other people they don't have the right to choose because you don't agree with it is removing agency and liberty from other people.

This does not account for the countless children in elementary school who are being introduced to drugs in the form of candy who do not yet have a full grasp of the consequences, thereby affecting their agency. Even the most vigilant parents have very young children who are exposed to this terrible growing trend.

Edited June 18, 2008 by skalenfehl

[Hemidakota]

Ditto brother....

[Guest Username-Removed]

Skal,

Nice post! You've put some excellent thought into that.

[Hemidakota]

When I searched the Ensign of the church, I am always floored on the amount of articles that just deals with drugs in general. I am thankful for those who contribute in allowing others to know of the dangers of this issue in our own day.

Out of 407 hits:

When a Teenager Uses Drugs or Alcohol: How to Cope …

in Ensign Mar. 1988 by Sue Bergin

...watch your teenager suffer from alcohol or drug abuse. How can parents cope? And what can ... . The Problem among LDS Youth Is Real Drug abuse among youth crosses all barriers- ... sponsored by the National Institute on Drug Abuse. 1) These facts should not be taken...

Love of the Right

in Conference Report, April 1971 by Marvin J. Ashton

...are made aware of the fact that there are drug users even among the twelve- to thirteen ... rob an individual of his sense of values. Drug-tampering youth are playing copycat in ... element. May I recommend, as we look at drug abuse or other social problems, that we...

Life Is Eternal

in Ensign June 1971 by Ezra Taft Benson

...are made aware of the fact that there are drug users even among the twelve- to thirteen ... rob an individual of his sense of values. Drug-tampering youth are playing copycat in ... element. May I recommend, as we look at drug abuse or other social problems, that we...

Random Sampler

in Ensign Aug. 1985

...adverse side effects. While serving on the Drug Specifications Committee for Los Angeles ... manufacturing process of this particular generic drug... physician if there is an acceptable generic drug available and, if so, to indicate this ... caused the nausea. Other generic drugs

The Scourge of Illicit Drugs

in Ensign Nov. 1989 by Gordon B. Hinckley

...crimes committed in their neighborhoods are drug related. Also, 70% of those with children ... of the United States has described the drug problem as the gravest domestic threat ... great deal' or `quite a bit' to correct the drug problem." A woman respondent said, "No...

The Scourge of Illicit Drugs

in Conference Report, October 1989 by Gordon B. Hinckley

...crimes committed in their neighborhoods are drug related. Also, 70% of those with children ... of the United States has described the drug problem as the gravest domestic threat ... dealA* or A*quite a bitA* to correct the drug problem.A* A woman respondent said, A*...

Random Sampler

in Ensign Oct. 1991

...Ensign, Oct 1991, 70-71 Rx for Avoiding Drug Interactions D. Richard Hurley, "Rx for Avoiding Drug Interactions," Ensign, Oct. 1991, 70 ... bed in eight is occupied by a victim of a drug reaction or interaction. These reactions...

Challenges for the Year Ahead

in BYU Speeches 1973 by Dallin H. Oaks - 6 September 1973

...personal observations and experience with drug users have given me some indelible convictions ... distribution of any narcotic or dangerous drug... allowance for probation. Persons guilty of drug offenses can, of course, repent and change... . . . , except as prescribed by a licensed

Testimonies from the Inner City

in Ensign Apr. 1992 by LaRene Gaunt

...concrete nearby, sleeping. At the curb, a drug dealer's luxury car sits parked in front ... circumstances in America: poverty, crime, drug... One of those people was my husband, whose drug use was dragging me down. I knew I was ... addiction, physical and sexual abuse, and

Addiction or Freedom

in Ensign Nov. 1988 by Russell M. Nelson

...deep concern--the worldwide epidemic of drug addiction. As a medical doctor, my study ... declared nicotine to be a powerfully addicting drug in the same sense as are drugs such as ... behavior is substantially controlled by a drug. We understand those feelings. Alcohol...

Addiction or Freedom

in Conference Report, October 1988 by Russell M. Nelson

...deep concern--the worldwide epidemic of drug addiction. As a medical doctor, my study ... declared nicotine to be a powerfully addicting drug in the same sense as are drugs such as ... behavior is substantially controlled by a drug. We understand those feelings. Alcohol...

Alcohol Addiction: Hope for Understanding and Recovery

in Ensign July 1981 by James R. Goodrich

...unintentional lesson taught. We live in a drug-oriented culture that has produced a host ... serious health threat. But the greatest drug problem of all lies in alcohol consumption ... needed help and was admitted to a local drug and alcohol treatment center, only his ...

News of the Church

in Ensign Feb. 1988

...doing?" Elder Backman Named to White House Drug Panel "Elder Backman Named to White House Drug Panel," Ensign, Feb. 1988, 75 Washington ...Drug-Free America. Elder Backman was selected... conferee to the White House Conference for a

Tobacco: Quitting for Good

in Ensign Feb. 2002 by Janet Brigham

...the National Clearinghouse on Alcohol and Drug Information, P.O. Box 2345, Rockville, ... others, "Nicotine Withdrawal versus Other Drug... Addiction 86 (1991): 621-25. 6. U.S. Food and Drug Administration, Nicotine in Cigarettes ... Withdrawal Syndromes: Similarities and

News of the Church

in Ensign Apr. 1985

.... Senate Subcommittee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse which supports banning or severely ... alcohol is the most widely used and abused drug in America. It is ironic that there are ... deserve our best efforts to protect them from drug abuse. Existing scientific evidence of ...

With Love— from the Prodigal's Sister

in Ensign June 1991 by Name Withheld

...consequences of his actions. He received help at a drug treatment center for youth and has been totally drug-free for more than a year. Bill's victory over drug addiction is a success story, but the story...

Portraits

in Ensign Feb. 1991

...national attention was focused on alcohol and drug addiction, Brother Whitehouse was interested ... and the problems of tobacco, alcohol, and drug abuse. The program eventually spread from ... governor of Texas for his efforts to fight drug abuse, and he has also been appointed to...

9. How do Latter-day Saints believe they should live their lives?

in Latter-day Christianity: 10 Basic Issues by Robert L. Millet, Noel B. Reynolds

..."Religion and Drug Use," Journal of Drug Education 22/1 (1992): ...

Should the Commandments Be Rewritten?

in Ensign Dec. 1971 by Richard L. Evans

...distortion of definitions. To describe a drug experience he uses the term `mind expanding ... today a rock festival that is not also a drug festival, a sex festival, and a rebellion ... points to "a new direction in the rock-drug culture [which is] hailed by many ministers...

Covenants

in Ensign Nov. 1990 by Boyd K. Packer

...abortion, the gay-lesbian movement, and drug addiction. They are debated in forums and ... specifically forbid abortion or a gay-lesbian or drug-centered life-style. "If they are so wrong ... that most people are drawn into a life of drug addiction or perversion or submit to an...

The Word of Wisdom

in Conference Report, April 1976 by Theodore M. Burton

... the 1960s there was much ado about the drug culture, and with very good cause. As we ... predicament. Frightening and vicious though drug... and tobacco. They constitute our major drug problem today, for these substances are... use is, equally destructive in the long

When the Happy Ending Hasn't Happened—Yet

in Ensign Feb. 1993 by Name Withheld

...times. It was the late sixties, and the drug culture was so new we just didn't discern ... coming to terms with our beloved child's drug abuse. First of all, we had to deal with ... didn't want anyone to know about Kevin's drug problem. We both had ward callings, and...

"Shake Off the Chains with Which Ye Are Bound"

in Ensign Nov. 1986 by Marvin J. Ashton

...husband and father who is participating in drug abuse. He stands to lose family, employment ... witnessed in my life are people living with drug... peace, and purpose. Anyone who tells you drug use is the "fun" way is a liar. Any judge... addiction. They are prisoners within their

Satan's Thrust—Youth

in Conference Report, October 1971 by Ezra Taft Benson

...distortion of definitions. To describe a drug experience he uses the term A*mind expandingA ... today a rock festival that is not also a drug festival, a sex festival, and a rebellion ... points to A*a new direction in the rock-drug culture [which is] hailed by many ministers...

[Redbeard]

Very well thought out Skalenfehl, I feel special for being the focus of a post too

Fascism is defined by Wikipedia as authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.

First off, since this I'm guessing this is about the drugs I will go ahead and leave this be, I don't think it needs much of a response from me.

Because I don't believe anyone should do drugs is my prerogative as is someone's prerogative to believe that everyone should do drugs and that marijuana should be legalized. Where one crosses the line into Fascism is when one seeks to enforce this by totalitarian attempts to impose state control for example through a dictatorship and oppressive measures. Just because someone thinks it should be legal or doesn't think it should be legal does not make one Fascist. There is a difference between believing that nobody should or should not hurt themselves and then usurping power to enforce it.

While the first part of this paragraph is a little hard for me to understand (be nice to me, I'm on meds...) I believe what you are trying to say is: "The difference between a facsist and myself is while I don't believe drugs should be used, I am not going to try to change the law myself to have everything go my way."

Forgive me if I got that wrong, you may have to speak very slowly to me today

If that is what your saying, then kudos to you, I appreciate your open mindedness. If not, please clarify in 2nd grade language for me lol.

Liberty functions from the bottom up (we the people), not dictated from the top down. So if the majority of the people vote in a Democracy to legalize drugs, then that is the law of the land and we believe in honoring the law, though I will never do drugs, I'd have now be more careful of its exposure to my family. So yes, something should be legal or illegal because the majority voted this way (abortion, legalizing drugs, etc), though it doesn't necessarily make it right. The voice of the people have spoken. The point of this debate is does it affect someone else? My answer is yes! I have lived through the effects of someone else doing drugs that have affected both my boys who have done it all.

I agree, and while recreational drugs are currently illegal, I will not use them. However, just because a law is one way, does not mean that people should support it unquestionably. Remember, at one time slavery was the law, as was the lack of womens and other races rights. I am simply saying that people should not be held responsible for other peoples lack of judgement.

*off topic* I applaud you for adopting, you are truly a great person in my book for getting those children away from a bad enviroment, and raising them to the best of your ability! Thank you for your contribution to bettering the world, and I do mean that whole heartedly.

*back on topic*

I am not advocating that people who abuse drugs should have the right to do so and harm families. I am simply stating that if a person is responsible it should be no one else's business but their own what they do with their own body. If you have children, do not smoke around them, whether that be tobacco or canibis. If you drink achohol, do not drive, or abuse your family. I know many people who drink alchohol that have never drivin drunk, never abused family members, and never broken a law. Why should their rights be taken away because of a drunk driver who is not responsible? My same argument goes for people who smoke marijuana, If you are going to do it, make sure you are being responsible, nothing more, nothing less.

There are many people across the country who smoke marijuana in the privacy of their own home unaware that the fumes make their way into the apartment above, where an elderly man lives or perhaps mixing chemicals to make meth while the ammonia fumes seep into the next room where a child is playing. There are countless meth labs in the country where something goes wrong and in an explosion takes out the criminal along with the neighboring family, who is barbecuing next door. There are countless children, including my adopted son who was born a crack baby because his biological mother chose to do every drug in the book and in an altered state of mind decided to sleep around and have many children. There is a supplier dealing right now without any concern for the consequences of who his drugs reach when he deals with someone who just wants to smoke it by himself without hurting anyone. Meanwhile the profit that he creates for his supplier, supporting his business is used to make more drugs, which end up at the elementary school down my street and into the hands of my neighbor's children who become addicted and pass it on to my children or my nieces and nephews.

That's a long one, I hope I don't miss anything-

First off, marijuana smoke going from one apartment to another? If there is not proper enough filtration to stop the smoke from going to multiple apartments, they should be condemmed , but out of all of the smokes out there, marijuana has continually been shown to be the least damaging (compared to fire/tobacco). The other point you brought up is meth labs. With legalized recreational drugs, drugs would be created and distributed by actual companies, being kept in check by the goverment. No more backyard meth labs .

What has been done to your child because of his biological mother is indeed a heinous crime. But look at it this way- RIGHT NOW drugs are illegal, and his mother used them. Some people will use drugs irresponsibly whether or not they are illegal. How would keeping the drugs illegal change that situation? Stolen from a site (forget where...)

If drugs were legalized we would have-

1.) Purity assurance under Food and Drug Administration regulation;

2.) Labeled concentration of the product (to avoid overdose);

3.) Obliteration of vigorous marketing ("pushers");

4.) Obliteration of drug crime and reduction of theft crime

5.) Savings in expensive enforcement and

6.) Significant tax revenues

You are right. Guns don't kill people, knives don't kill people, ropes don't kill people. People kill people, drug dealers kill people. But guns are also used for hunting for food for survival, and also for sport and other recreational activities. Knives are implements used for a vast variety of reasons such as surgical procedures, cutting up food, or carving a sculpture and creating art. Ropes also have a wide range of uses, such as tying up packages or saving a life with a life preserver attached. Ropes are used for securing things to your car when you go on long trips or for construction. The list goes on and on

What beneficial uses does crystal meth have? Cocaine? PCP? etc? If someone wants to do drugs, they cannot intelligently believe that doing drugs does not have an effect on someone else because it does. They perpetuate the supply and demand which trickles down to the average innocent child because the hardened drug dealers do not care who ends up with drugs. Their only concern is the profit that it brings.

Yes, supply and demand, that if legalized would be regulated by the goverment! If drugs are legalized, why would we still have backstreet drug dealers? Alchohol and tobacco are illegal to minors under 21, but you don't see alchohol and tobacco dealers on the street corners do you?

As for medical uses of drugs, you can check those out for yourself, but the other use for recreational drugs is just that RECREATION. Is it something that I want to do for recreation? No, but other people do, as long as they are being responsible, why should we stop them?

For everyone else:

Medical cannabis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cocaine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Methamphetamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Phencyclidine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many drugs are regulated. If marijuana has medicinal benefits then it should be regulated like any prescription drug that you buy at a pharmacy. If by some bizarre coincidence, crystal meth in a certain safe dose cures brain cancer, then by all means, let it be produced and regulated. The problem that I see here is that drugs have no beneficial purpose other than to harm, destroy or kill whether it's yourself or someone else and it's the someone else, especially someone else, that concerns me because someone else is always affected.

First off, just about every scientific journal has published the medicinal benifits of marijuana... But the point of drugs is not just medication. Some people want to get high once in a while. If they do so in a responsible manner, who are we to tell them they shouldn't be allowed to?

And just for examples sake, please indicate to me who is being effected besides myself in this SAMPLE (as in, never happened) situation:

I am sitting alone in my house, which I own. Not a duplex, apartment or anything else. I decide to smoke some marijuana which I have grown in my house in a secret lair (Just for clarification this is all an example...) I smoke the marijuana, and then lounge around my house watching Fox's Family Guy. I then go to bed, and wake up the next morning and go out to mow my lawn. The end.

Regardless of what country or set of laws we live, we are all human beings living in the same world and drugs are not something that knows boundaries or borders. I will never vote to legalize something just because someone wants to do it to themselves, because that kind of irresponsible thinking does not see reason through. They simply aren't doing it to just themselves.

Um... some people do... How about the hash bars in amsterdam? When was the last time you heard of a guy going to a hash bar, then going out and shooting up a family? There are quite a few people in the world that lead incredibly productive lives, and still partake in recreational drug use. How do you explain that?

Erowid Character Vaults : Famous People and their Drug Use

Yes, there are people on that list who did not use them responsibly, and they are not the ones I'm talking about...

Amos, Tori

The Beatles

Charles, Ray

Churchill, Winston

Clapton, Eric

Clinton, William

Dickens, Charles

Dumas, Alexander

Edison, Thomas

Freud, Sigmund

Gates, Bill

Ginsberg, Allen

Gore, Al

Gore, Tipper

Grant, Ulysses S

Hemingway, Ernest

Harrelson, Woody

Jackson, Andrew

Jefferson, Thomas

Jobs, Steve

John, Elton

Jolie, Angelina

I'll go ahead and stop there, but you get the point.

This does not account for the countless children in elementary school who are being introduced to drugs in the form of candy who do not yet have a full grasp of the consequences, thereby affecting their agency. Even the most vigilant parents have very young children who are exposed to this terrible growing trend.

Once again, would not be a problem if drugs were legalized and regulated.

Anyway, hope all of that made sense, I'm still a little loopy, but getting better as the day moves on.

Edited June 18, 2008 by Redbeard

[skalenfehl]

I'll go ahead and leave the Fascism part out, because all it really means is that if I'm Fascist, I am going to take over the government and impose my system of beliefs on everyone by force. I will make everyone do what is right because that is what I believe. Sound familiar? (Lucifer, Hitler, etc).

Now to address the heart of the matter: Does using harmful drugs affect anyone else? Again, my answer is yes. There may be exceptions to the rule. Someone who lives in the the lone prairies of Podunk USA, who grows a few plants for himself will very likely not affect me. This is hardly the case.

Slavery and women's suffrage hardly compares to the distribution of drugs and narcotics to children. I'm defending right from wrong. Slavery is wrong and so is distributing harmful substances where others are directly and indirectly affected. But this brings another good point. Why is it ok to lobby and fight to right a wrong, but not to wrong a right? Because it doesn't affect someone else? That is a selfish and irresponsible statement and no drug dealer or drug user really cares, especially when addiction takes over.

I am simply stating that if a person is responsible it should be no one else's business but their own what they do with their own body.

*IF*. Seldom do harmful drugs and narcotics and being responsible go hand in hand. There are isolated exceptions but this is simply not the rule. Where you have enough to make your own dime bag hardly compares to the millions if not billions of dollars of drugs that are trafficked regularly that reach my children and your children.

If you have children, do not smoke around them, whether that be tobacco or canibis.

In my experience there are two kinds of people when it comes to drugs. Those that have been affected by it and those who are about to be affected by it. By the time my boys were in middle school they were smart enough to know where all the dealers in my city were and the next city over where my younger son now lives. They know where to go to score a hit right now and very likely who's growing their own personal stashes.

First off, marijuana smoke going from one apartment to another? If there is not proper enough filtration to stop the smoke from going to multiple apartments, they should be condemmed

Do you know how many low/no income families live in slums that should have been condemned decades ago with zero ventilation?

but out of all of the smokes out there, marijuana has continually been shown to be the least damaging (compared to fire/tobacco).

My boys both knew from the start that marijuana is a gateway drug. When someone rationalizes one wrong, it becomes easier to rationalize another and so on. And this is what happens. You start with something "harmless" and soon you're moving on to a bigger high.

With legalized recreational drugs, drugs would be created and distributed by actual companies, being kept in check by the goverment. No more backyard meth labs

Cigarettes are supposedly being kept in check right now, but apparently it's not good enough because I see commercials every day telling us what cigarettes contain in order to keep consumers addicted. As I type this my unemployed son is trying to figure out how he's going to buy his next pack, including selling whatever he owns. What makes you think the "pot industry" won't begin to include the same or other addictive ingredients in order to keep their customers coming back for more in the name of the almighty dollar?

If drugs were legalized we would have-

1.) Purity assurance under Food and Drug Administration regulation;

2.) Labeled concentration of the product (to avoid overdose);

3.) Obliteration of vigorous marketing ("pushers");

4.) Obliteration of drug crime and reduction of theft crime

5.) Savings in expensive enforcement and

6.) Significant tax revenues

Cigarettes contain ingredients not labeled on the box such as arsenic. But the tobacco companies won't tell you this. But here is a list of what tobacco companies have reported to contain:

The List

* Acetanisole

* Acetic Acid

* Acetoin

* Acetophenone

* 6-Acetoxydihydrotheaspirane

* 2-Acetyl-3- Ethylpyrazine

* 2-Acetyl-5-Methylfuran

* Acetylpyrazine

* 2-Acetylpyridine

* 3-Acetylpyridine

* 2-Acetylthiazole

* Aconitic Acid

* dl-Alanine

* Alfalfa Extract

* Allspice Extract,Oleoresin, and Oil

* Allyl Hexanoate

* Allyl Ionone

* Almond Bitter Oil

* Ambergris Tincture

* Ammonia

* Ammonium Bicarbonate

* Ammonium Hydroxide

* Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic

* Ammonium Sulfide

* Amyl Alcohol

* Amyl Butyrate

* Amyl Formate

* Amyl Octanoate

* alpha-Amylcinnamaldehyde

* Amyris Oil

* trans-Anethole

* Angelica Root Extract, Oil and Seed Oil

* Anise

* Anise Star, Extract and Oils

* Anisyl Acetate

* Anisyl Alcohol

* Anisyl Formate

* Anisyl Phenylacetate

* Apple Juice Concentrate, Extract, and Skins

* Apricot Extract and Juice Concentrate

* 1-Arginine

* Asafetida Fluid Extract And Oil

* Ascorbic Acid

* 1-Asparagine Monohydrate

* 1-Aspartic Acid

* Balsam Peru and Oil

* Basil Oil

* Bay Leaf, Oil and Sweet Oil

* Beeswax White

* Beet Juice Concentrate

* Benzaldehyde

* Benzaldehyde Glyceryl Acetal

* Benzoic Acid, Benzoin

* Benzoin Resin

* Benzophenone

* Benzyl Alcohol

* Benzyl Benzoate

* Benzyl Butyrate

* Benzyl Cinnamate

* Benzyl Propionate

* Benzyl Salicylate

* Bergamot Oil

* Bisabolene

* Black Currant Buds Absolute

* Borneol

* Bornyl Acetate

* Buchu Leaf Oil

* 1,3-Butanediol

* 2,3-Butanedione

* 1-Butanol

* 2-Butanone

* 4(2-Butenylidene)-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One

* Butter, Butter Esters, and Butter Oil

* Butyl Acetate

* Butyl Butyrate

* Butyl Butyryl Lactate

* Butyl Isovalerate

* Butyl Phenylacetate

* Butyl Undecylenate

* 3-Butylidenephthalide

* Butyric Acid]

* Cadinene

* Caffeine

* Calcium Carbonate

* Camphene

* Cananga Oil

* Capsicum Oleoresin

* Caramel Color

* Caraway Oil

* Carbon Dioxide

* Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder

* Carob Bean and Extract

* beta-Carotene

* Carrot Oil

* Carvacrol

* 4-Carvomenthenol

* 1-Carvone

* beta-Caryophyllene

* beta-Caryophyllene Oxide

* Cascarilla Oil and Bark Extract

* Cassia Bark Oil

* Cassie Absolute and Oil

* Castoreum Extract, Tincture and Absolute

* Cedar Leaf Oil

* Cedarwood Oil Terpenes and Virginiana

* Cedrol

* Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin

* Cellulose Fiber

* Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract

* Chicory Extract

* Chocolate

* Cinnamaldehyde

* Cinnamic Acid

* Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract

* Cinnamyl Acetate

* Cinnamyl Alcohol

* Cinnamyl Cinnamate

* Cinnamyl Isovalerate

* Cinnamyl Propionate

* Citral

* Citric Acid

* Citronella Oil

* dl-Citronellol

* Citronellyl Butyrate

* itronellyl Isobutyrate

* Civet Absolute

* Clary Oil

* Clover Tops, Red Solid Extract

* Cocoa

* Cocoa Shells, Extract, Distillate And Powder

* Coconut Oil

* Coffee

* Cognac White and Green Oil

* Copaiba Oil

* Coriander Extract and Oil

* Corn Oil

* Corn Silk

* Costus Root Oil

* Cubeb Oil

* Cuminaldehyde

* para-Cymene

* 1-Cysteine

The List of Additives in Cigarettes

And that is only A-C! Never mind D-Z. What is pure about these ingredients? And this from a "tobacco" industry. Once upon a time people just wanted to smoke plain ol' tobacco!

"It's chilling to think about not only how smokers poison themselves, but what others are exposed to by breathing in the secondhand smoke. The next time you're missing your old buddy, the cigarette, take a good long look at this list and see them for what they are: a delivery system for toxic chemicals and carcinogens. Cigarettes offer people only a multitude of smoking-related diseases and ultimately death. The 599 Ingredient List was first published on April 12, 1994 by the six American cigarette companies. Provided here in it's entirety, this list will open your eyes as to what is actually in cigarettes.

Yes, supply and demand, that if legalized would be regulated by the goverment! If drugs are legalized, why would we still have backstreet drug dealers? Alchohol and tobacco are illegal to minors under 21, but you don't see alchohol and tobacco dealers on the street corners do you?

No. But two of them were living under my roof as young teenagers hiding their dime bags and stash where I couldn't find it. Not only did they become hooked on the green, but they both became dealers of it and much harder drugs. If it can happen to me it can happen to you. The government regulating drugs like it regulates cigarettes? Or the sales of alcohol and cigarettes to minors? They're doing a poor job. I see minors with cigarettes all the time. I'm granting you the fact that there are exceptions, but I'm looking at the whole. The bottom line for me is that drugs affect others whether or not JimJoeBob in Somewhere USA is growing his own personal stash. The proof is in your local elementary and middle schools.

Once again, would not be a problem if drugs were legalized and regulated.

It would create a whole slew of new problems. The underground criminal drug dealers would then resort to another venue of high profit yielding criminal activity such as kidnapping, carjacking, etc. Criminals will not suddenly become law abiding citizens because their main source of income has been legalized and they just became outsourced. This has already been debated in Brazil:

“A Brazilian Walks Into An Amsterdam Hash Bar”: Gabeira on The Clockwork Orange The New Market Machines

"One of the best anti-drug ads I’ve seen, in fact, was a Brazilian spot in a which a young person says just this: “I do not think pot-smoking is such a big deal, but on the other hand, do I really want to be supporting an industry with blood on its hands?”"

Further effects would be prostitution, disease, heck read what another site has to say as it glorified Amsterdam:

Check your morals at the door and lock and dam the kids in the hotel room, it's Amsterdam time! Aaawww yeah! Soft drugs! Government sanctioned prostitution! Live sex shows! More sin than you can shake a bong at! This place makes Las Vegas look like Iowa City!

Check your Morals at the Door - Amsterdam, The Netherlands - BootsnAll.com

Like I said, marijuana is a gateway drug as is alcohol and both are gateways to even greater forms of corruption. When you have one person wanting the liberty to hurt himself, you'll get a whole generation of people wanting to hurt themselves and soon the whole society hurts themselves to the point where the government has to take over as it's doing now. Do you know where it stops? I do. I want to do everything in my power to slow it down or not be a part of it when the big ax falls.

[Redbeard]

Holy cow son! It's gonna take me a week just to read that, much less respond! Lol, I'll start reading and get back to you shortly.

[jjrogers]

Smoking pot does have effects many people don't realize. If a pre teen girl smokes pot it can actually halt puberty. If a man smokes it he can grow breasts. I had a drug brain and behavior class in college. when the professor made the statemnet that a man can grow breasts, the guy behind me said, that can't really happen can it? We all knew who was smoking too much pot. So just because pot may not make you violent like crystal meth does not mean it is not affecting your body.

[Redbeard]

Dang it, I had a big old response written out and like an idiot I hit the back button instead of submit... I'll just skip to the big things...

I'll go ahead and leave the Fascism part out, because all it really means is that if I'm Fascist, I am going to take over the government and impose my system of beliefs on everyone by force. I will make everyone do what is right because that is what I believe. Sound familiar? (Lucifer, Hitler, etc).

Gotcha, no argument there!

Now to address the heart of the matter: Does using harmful drugs affect anyone else? Again, my answer is yes. There may be exceptions to the rule. Someone who lives in the the lone prairies of Podunk USA, who grows a few plants for himself will very likely not affect me. This is hardly the case.

Please show me proof that the majority of drug users damage society. No, that's not really a serious request, I'm simply trying to show you that there is no way to prove that either way, so you are just stating opinion. It's fine to have it, just don't say it like it's fact

Slavery and women's suffrage hardly compares to the distribution of drugs and narcotics to children. I'm defending right from wrong. Slavery is wrong and so is distributing harmful substances where others are directly and indirectly affected. But this brings another good point. Why is it ok to lobby and fight to right a wrong, but not to wrong a right? Because it doesn't affect someone else? That is a selfish and irresponsible statement and no drug dealer or drug user really cares, especially when addiction takes over.

You are 100% correct, legalization of recreational drugs is by far not as important of a struggle compared to minority rights and slavery, but a wrong is a wrong!

Once again, unless you can prove that the majority of drug users are damaging peoples lives you are just giving your opinion, please try to link sources that would support your opinion.

*IF*. Seldom do harmful drugs and narcotics and being responsible go hand in hand. There are isolated exceptions but this is simply not the rule. Where you have enough to make your own dime bag hardly compares to the millions if not billions of dollars of drugs that are trafficked regularly that reach my children and your children.

Which is how you have personally experienced them. My experience with people using recreational drugs has been completely opposite, the majority of the people that I know of that use drugs leave productive lives, they have jobs, and go to school, pay their bills, ect... now I should also mention that the majority of my friends are college students, so demographics will play big into that.

In my experience there are two kinds of people when it comes to drugs. Those that have been affected by it and those who are about to be affected by it. By the time my boys were in middle school they were smart enough to know where all the dealers in my city were and the next city over where my younger son now lives. They know where to go to score a hit right now and very likely who's growing their own personal stashes.

I really am sorry for having such horrific experiences, I'm not so sure that if I were in your shoes I'd be fighting the same fight, but my personal experience with people and drugs has been nothing like that.

Do you know how many low/no income families live in slums that should have been condemned decades ago with zero ventilation?

Probably a lot, which is sad, but that delves into the area of drugs in different demographics...

My boys both knew from the start that marijuana is a gateway drug. When someone rationalizes one wrong, it becomes easier to rationalize another and so on. And this is what happens. You start with something "harmless" and soon you're moving on to a bigger high.

WHAT!?!? I haven't heard that in years! I will link some stories for you to check out, the majority of marijuana users never move on to try harder drugs, the reason the goverment got away with saying that is because most people who have tried harder drugs started out doing lighter ones. But that's pretty backwards thinking...

Gateway drug theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Myth of Marijuana's Gateway Effect

Study say marijuana no gateway drug | Science Blog

Marijuana Not A Gateway To Hard Drug Use, Rand Study Says<BR>Conclusions Raise Serious Doubts Regarding The Legitimacy Of U.S. Drug Policy - NORML

Myths and Facts About Marijuana

Anyway, that's pretty old info you got there, hopefully this will get you some up to date stuff.

Cigarettes are supposedly being kept in check right now, but apparently it's not good enough because I see commercials every day telling us what cigarettes contain in order to keep consumers addicted. As I type this my unemployed son is trying to figure out how he's going to buy his next pack, including selling whatever he owns. What makes you think the "pot industry" won't begin to include the same or other addictive ingredients in order to keep their customers coming back for more in the name of the almighty dollar?

Because marijuana sells itself... much like achohol

Ciggarettes on the other hand are literally addictive. And before you go out and try stating that marijuana is addictive, you should probably look up the most recent studies on that

Cigarettes contain ingredients not labeled on the box such as arsenic. But the tobacco companies won't tell you this. But here is a list of what tobacco companies have reported to contain:

Yup, nastey stuff... but lucky for us marijuana is all natural

And that is only A-C! Never mind D-Z. What is pure about these ingredients? And this from a "tobacco" industry. Once upon a time people just wanted to smoke plain ol' tobacco!

Yup, but luckily there are already a ton of natural marijuana growers in the US, as long as its regulated we would continue harvesting pure canabis.

No. But two of them were living under my roof as young teenagers hiding their dime bags and stash where I couldn't find it. Not only did they become hooked on the green, but they both became dealers of it and much harder drugs. If it can happen to me it can happen to you. The government regulating drugs like it regulates cigarettes? Or the sales of alcohol and cigarettes to minors? They're doing a poor job. I see minors with cigarettes all the time. I'm granting you the fact that there are exceptions, but I'm looking at the whole. The bottom line for me is that drugs affect others whether or not JimJoeBob in Somewhere USA is growing his own personal stash. The proof is in your local elementary and middle schools.

And like I said, unfortunatly I cannot compare to that situation, but it is your personal experience, and without some sort of evidence that the majority of users are the same way it doesn't really help in this debate. And yes, you do see minors with ciggarettes, but are they getting them from back alley dealers? No... at least not the kids I knew, they stole them from their parents, or had their older sibbling buy them.

It would create a whole slew of new problems. The underground criminal drug dealers would then resort to another venue of high profit yielding criminal activity such as kidnapping, carjacking, etc. Criminals will not suddenly become law abiding citizens because their main source of income has been legalized and they just became outsourced. This has already been debated in Brazil

“A Brazilian Walks Into An Amsterdam Hash Bar”: Gabeira on The Clockwork Orange The New Market Machines

"One of the best anti-drug ads I’ve seen, in fact, was a Brazilian spot in a which a young person says just this: “I do not think pot-smoking is such a big deal, but on the other hand, do I really want to be supporting an industry with blood on its hands?”"

What?!?!? that's a slippery slope argument if I've ever heard one... We already have legalized marijuana in many states in the US, and we havent' had a problem like this yet.

Further effects would be prostitution, disease, heck read what another site has to say as it glorified Amsterdam:

Check your Morals at the Door - Amsterdam, The Netherlands - BootsnAll.com

Like I said, marijuana is a gateway drug as is alcohol and both are gateways to even greater forms of corruption. When you have one person wanting the liberty to hurt himself, you'll get a whole generation of people wanting to hurt themselves and soon the whole society hurts themselves to the point where the government has to take over as it's doing now. Do you know where it stops? I do. I want to do everything in my power to slow it down or not be a part of it when the big ax falls.

Once again, obviously not true, since we have legalized marijuana in multiple states now, without those side effects...

Sorry for the short responses, but I'm frustrated I didn't keep my last ones

[RachelleDrew]

Smoking pot does have effects many people don't realize. If a pre teen girl smokes pot it can actually halt puberty. If a man smokes it he can grow breasts.

Dude, they get the moobs from consuming too many Cheetos during midnight munchies. :lol::lol:

[Bookmeister]

Okay, thanks...now I can never eat Cheetos again...

[Guest Username-Removed]

Fat produces estrogen, in both men and women.

More fat = more estrogen.

More estrogen = more moobs

=

[Iggy]

First of all if I could give more than one Thanks, I would give you about a dozen Skalenfehl. That is how much I agree with you.

<<snip>> There are countless meth labs in the country where something goes wrong and in an explosion takes out the criminal along with the neighboring family, who is barbecuing next door.

When my husband bought the house and property we now live in there were no meth houses or drug dealers in this neighborhood. The drug dealers are illegal Mexicans- direct from Mexico. They are the worst kind of human being there is. They care not a whit for any human, much less their own people. In the last two years three meth kitchens have blown up and burned down the buildings they were housed in. Fortunately these were abandoned buildings and if anyone was hurt, it would have been one of the illegals minding the kitchen.

For the few of us who are NOT druggies, we were not harmed by the fires. The family on the south side of us are harmed by the fumes. Their next to the youngest child nearly died from the fumes. This child was born with underdeveloped lungs, and was on a respirator for the first year of her life. Add the fumes from these meth kitchens and she can only play outside with a special gas mask on. Not fun for a 4 year old, but she wears it and seems to enjoy herself. Our homes are not close to each other either. There is nearly 3 acres between us and the family. Perhaps 2 acres between the family and the last meth kitchen that blew up.

Yes, the local police, boarder patrol, vice, yada, yada, yada know all about the druggies, cooks, crooks, illegals, yada, yada, yada. They want to get the BIG GUYS. The brains behind these piddly little crooks. I disagree with this. Get the little guys, put them out of business for good, don't ship them back to Mexico because Mexico will just turn them loose and they will come back. Ship them off to the Tent City Prison that we have here, and make them earn their keep.

We never go outside because we don't know when a gun war will take place. In about two to three years this area will be commercially developed by the city that boarders it. When it is, we will sell our 1 1/2 acres of prime commercial property and get the heck out of Dodge and head West! Way West, back to Oregon!

What beneficial uses does crystal meth have? Cocaine? PCP? etc? If someone wants to do drugs, they cannot intelligently believe that doing drugs does not have an effect on someone else because it does. They perpetuate the supply and demand which trickles down to the average innocent child because the hardened drug dealers do not care who ends up with drugs. Their only concern is the profit that it brings.

My husbands youngest brother is a meth addict. As is his wife and two of his youngest children. He taught them how to make it, use it and sell it. His wife, who is their stepmother pimped the girls out when they were 9 and 10 years old. The older girl fought the stepmother for several years, it was her father that eventually pimped her out at the ripe old age of 13.

When the family discovered this, we went to the authorities and they would do nothing about it. Children's Services claimed that we had no proof of the children being prostituted out, or of their drug use or selling. They didn't listen to the girls school mates who claimed to have purchased drugs from my nieces. Nor did they do any random drug testing, or take them to the Dr. We couldn't do it legally, because we are not the parents.

The Dr wanted to help, but his hands were tied - legally to. So were the hands of the Church.

The girls are now 20, 18, and 17. The 18 year old is off the street and living with her pimp. The other two are still with their Dad. He has been in and out of the Hospital three times in four years. Heart attacks caused by extensive use of Meth. His innards are mostly mush. Each time, the Dr's say they don't know why he is still living- he hasn't next to no internal organs left.

This creature is 51 years old and looks like he is in his mid 90's. He has ruined the lives of all of his children- he has six daughters from two marriages and a stepson. Only two wives out of four have gotten out of the drug scene and made something of themselves. Yes, he introduced them all to drugs. He started using drugs when he was 12 years old. His parents were divorced, his father was an alcoholic and his mother buried herself in her career and not in her home/mothering duties.

He also ruined the life of one of his nephews. Introducing him to crack and having him sell it for him. That young man died at the age of 22 due to the drugs he was using.

He also did another most horrendous thing. He emptied his mothers checking/savings account. Stole her SS# and sold it several times, sold her Identity. Opened credit cards in her name, maxed them out and left her with the bills. She nearly lost her home of 25 years because of this. He, his wife, three daughters and stepson lived with her for six years. They never paid for anything, never cleaned, cooked. All they did was take, take, abuse and neglect. Mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's in 1998. When husband and I got married and I met her, we finally took her out of her own home and sent her off to live with middle son and his wife. That was in 2005. She passed Feb 2008. When we took her from her home, I took her to the Dr. She had scabies, head lice, body lice (didn't know there was more than one kind of lice- what a shock!) she was malnourished, her feet were curling under because her toenails were 1 to 2 inches long and she couldn't walk or wear shoes properly. She was living on dry cat food. Youngest son told her is was Fruit Loops. He thought it was funny! I am ashamed (sort of ) to say that when he laughingly told us this, I back handed him so hard he fell on his backside, and the last tooth he had in his mouth, cut his lip. Yes I went to the Dr and got a tetanus shot- that tooth also cut my hand.

Do I hate this creature? It is a battle every day not to. Do I hate the things he has done and continues to do. You Better Believe It! Do I pray for him? You Better Believe It! For him and for everyone in this family and extended family. Do I allow him within a 20 mile radius? Not On Your Life. If I see him, I call the courts and the cops. He has 4 outstanding warrants against him.

Like I said before, we tried to get the police to do something. Their hands were tied. Senior Services wouldn't do anything either because Mom owned her own home.

It took Husband and middle brother 3 months to get conservatorship over Mom. Youngest brother refused to show up in court for the conservatorship - had he, he would have been arrested- had warrants out on him.

That is just what one man who is a meth addict has caused. I don't know about the other children that have been affected, we know that there are quite a few. Those who he taught how to steal debit cards and credit cards at the grocery check out.

As LDS, I know I should not wish harm to come to these addicts. Yet when I see the lives this one creature has destroyed, I don't want him to live. I want meth to be eradicated from the face of the earth. I want the meth dealers to be eradicated from the face of the earth. Perhaps put them all on a very, very isolated island and let them cook it up and take it till they eradicate themselves. Put the women on one island and the men on another so they don't have babies. No way would I want innocents brought into a life like that.

I pray for him, for all of them, and I pray for myself so that I may have compassion for them. I pray that the anger and hatred that I have will be banished from me. Father knows how hard this is for me, He knows the struggle I go through. And I am just a married into the family- my Husband is blood kin! I pray for him too- for he is going through 1,000 times more anguish than I could ever think of.

Eradicate Meth, all illegal drugs. Educate yourselves to what it is, where it is and how it affects you. I don't know if the mods will keep this link on the board. I will send it to Skalen first and then he can add it to my post if the mods okay it. If they don't, well- if you are my friend, then pm me and I will give it to you.

[Redbeard]

Smoking pot does have effects many people don't realize. If a pre teen girl smokes pot it can actually halt puberty. If a man smokes it he can grow breasts. I had a drug brain and behavior class in college. when the professor made the statemnet that a man can grow breasts, the guy behind me said, that can't really happen can it? We all knew who was smoking too much pot. So just because pot may not make you violent like crystal meth does not mean it is not affecting your body.

Wow... you should probably look up modern medicine, cannabis does not effect growth hormones whatsoever, it cannot stunt growth, and men will not grow breasts.

Health issues and effects of cannabis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Redbeard]

First of all if I could give more than one Thanks...

That was indeed a compelling story, however it seems like most of the arguments against legalization are because of personal bad experiences, which are emotionally based... Not really that helpful for a good discussion. I have to wonder if either of those situations would have ever happened if drugs were not illegal. Of course it's ridiculous for me to assume that, but hey, we can all throw in our opinion right?

Anyway, all drugs are illegal, and our government spends hundreds of millions of dollars trying to eradicate all drugs. It still has not stopped people from growing them, and people from using them. Prohibition is not working.

[skalenfehl]

Just a quick note to thank you, Redbeard for your objective replies. I will need to take time to back up all of my claims, if I can. Fent also brings up some good points as has Iggy. I think we are looking at two different scenarios. One is that my experience comes first hand and that I have seen the effect on drugs in children and teens in my community and their schools and even in my neighborhood. Your experience seems to come with college students and mature adults. Furthermore your emphasis is solely on marijuana. My emphasis is on crystal meth, cocaine, heroine, LSD, ecstasy and more. In other words the whole nine yards. I have already agreed that marijuana as a medicine should be regulated but that's where I draw the line. Meth, cocaine, heroine, and other narcotics have no medicinal or beneficial value.

As an adoptive father I have taken classes provided by my city required for being a foster parent. One of the most crucial things we are taught is how to lock up our prescription drugs and harmful products in our homes. I had turned the linen closet in my master bedroom into a lock vault where all my prescription drugs and harmful chemicals (cleaners, weed killers, poisons, etc) and put a key lock on my master bedroom door because kids today are stealing prescription drugs and aerosol cans to huff and having fun with them and distributing them at school. Unfortunately I didn't keep the data. My son also told me that when he took drugs and dealt drugs, nobody in his network that smoked marijuana stopped there. We are talking about pre-teens and teens. He himself became a full blown shooter by the time he was 13.

My entire point is that harmful drugs and narcotics do hurt others. There effects are far reaching, especially among youth. If nobody in your community or in your college has been exposed in some way, then count yourself lucky, but I'm willing to bet that the youth in your area are being exposed to it every day at school. I can count in both of my hands the kids that I know in my neighborhood that have been exposed to it and have experimented with it. And I live in a good ol' fashion Mormon community. Go figure.

[skalenfehl]

Dude, they get the moobs from consuming too many Cheetos during midnight munchies. :lol::lol:

moobs?!?

I don't know about meth but cocaine and heroin both started out as medication. Cocaine is an anaesthetic, I forgot what heroin was for though.

Eeks, my mistake. Apparently I didn't realize that some drugs started out as medication and I should have checked up on it first. I appreciate the correction. I really try to stay informed so I don't make blind statements, but I am still learning. I'll look into that as well.

[Iggy]

Even if they legalize and tax meth- there will still be those who will concoct it in their own homes because it is CHEAP to do so. Believe me the manufacturer's of meth won't sell it for cheap if it is legalized. They are going to make bucks off of it. Just like the liquor industry, and the tobacco industry.

It is a bad drug. Very bad drug. The Oregonian did an expose on it a few years ago. A Multnomah County Sheriff noticed that repeat meth offenders were aging in a rapid way. He started keeping track of them with photos. Then the Oregonian got in on the act and the expose they did is remarkable.

Like I said earlier, I can provide a web link so that you can see just how horrible this recreational drug is. How it affects the body, and when high what people do on it. It affects the endorphins in the brain- the feel good/sexually good endorphins. It destroys them. Thus making the addict take more meth, and try more extreme things to get the sexual high.

It should never be legalized, ever. It needs to be eliminated from the face of the earth forever.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Recreational drugs ... The only thing I would like to add on this subject is that there really is no such thing as recreational drugs. Our human mind will likes drugs, and we eventually find a way to try and have our cake and eat it to. Those that try drugs, will find a way to get them cheaper & and of higher quality. The Movie BLOW is based on a true story. Its rated R, but is one of those that shows how devestating it can be .... and how it can all start from smoking a joint.

[LegendadryPerc]

Whether "most" drug users harm others or not seems to not be as important as the fact that many do. I doubt "most" people who do many things that are illeagal because of their potential affect on others, harm others. That doesn't mean that we should not have laws against such stuff. Doubtfull that "most" times someone drives drunk, a tragedy occurs.

So, is the arguement still "do drugs affect others" or has it now shifted to "drugs do bad things, but what course of action will most effectively protect people from these things?"

Also, I don't know much about drugs, it's a disturbing topic, and I see no benifit of knowing the difference between cocaine and meth, but it seems that marijuana is completely different from meth.

I can understand the "alone by yourself" arguement for alchohol, but drugs (including tobacco) that are smoked, affect others - unless of course you are in the middle of nowhere. When you don't have the luxury of living in the middle of nowhere, your neibors smoke, and you don't have airconditioning, it's hard to believe it is their "right" to get filtered smoke, while you die either from heat exhaustion, or second hand smoke, especially with small children/when preg.

Ya, we have laws against smoking at parks, etc. but I am constantly asking people to politely go somewhere else. People seem to think that being outside, makes it perfectly acceptable to smoke right next to someone - like being outside is going to magically prevent the smoke from being there.

Then, is drug use personal choice? When you are drunk, high, whatever, are you making a personal choice? Can you be making a personal choice when you no longer have control over your thoughts, body, actions?

A war on drugs doesn't necisarily mean they have to be illeagal. A war (call it moral if you want) merely should use the best recourse to accomplish it's goal. Obviously the current war isn't working and uses a lot of money. What other strategies might work better? Is our fear of backfire justifiable? Is this fear made greater because, although usually it is wonderfull to live in a democracy, making and disolving laws is painfully slow. If legalizing drugs turns out worse - it will probably take a life-time to legalize them, and then another lifetime to fix that error. Can we afford that risk? Rather scary stuff! Wish I knew all the answers.

[WANDERER]

My response to legalising stuff is what about all the additives that companies will put into their products to encourage addiction, maximise their profits and with very little regard for the health impacts.

Actually my mother agrees with the idea that smoking cigarettes will naturally progress into smoking weed LOL. She means well...I'm going to stick with that theory anyway.

I'm working on giving up the smoking habit. I'm also horrified with the whole nicobate replacement scenario where I gather that people are simply going from one addiction to another...I have started nicobate...but apon reading the statistics I gather that many don't break the addiction cycle using nicotine replacements. Ah well, no one said it was going to be easy.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Wanderer,

I smoked for years. Put it down cold turkey and never picked up another one. However, chewing tobacco.... quiting that was that hardest thing I've ever done. I'm now tobacco free now for years! YOU CAN DO IT!!!!

[Hemidakota]

I'm also horrified with the whole nicobate replacement scenario where I gather that people are simply going from one addiction to another

That was my issue with AA Leadership seminars. Serving in the military years ago, it was a requirement for military leaders to attend AA seminars in receiving instructions with identifying military individuals with alcohol [still considered a drug to me] and hard drug additions. The problem I had to confront in those meetings was hearing how they would take the military person off one drug and replaced it with a weaker. Even after I voiced my own personal opinions, I just keep watching families being destroyed, court martial, and committing suicides, it fell on deaf ears. Disheartening to watch lives crumble.

[DigitalShadow]

This is an interesting issue to me. I don't do drugs, never have, don't really have the desire to. I have known many people who smoke weed though. I do think there are a lot of misconceptions thrown around this thread, so I will speak my opinion based on some personal experience.

Of all the people I've known who smoke weed, I've never known any of them to go on to "harder" drugs. People who are going to do harder drugs have different reasons and would have gotten to those drugs whether pot existed or not. The "gateway drug" mantra is pure propaganda as far as I'm concerned and I have yet to see evidence (personal or emperical) to the contrary.

Also, claiming that marijuana would get all the additives of cigarettes by greedy companies if it were legalized is a rediculous claim. Cigarettes have all those additives because on their own they don't have much recreational value, so they have to use whatever means they can to hook their customers to an otherwise worthless product. Marijuana can better be compared to alcohol, which needs no additives to keep people buying it.

In my opinion, legalizing marijuana would have very little effect on society and it would be regulated, used, and occasionally abused just like all the legal drugs like alcohol. Other drugs like meth and cocaine are not quite as simple though. Unlike marijuana, they create strong physical addictions from the first use and do great harm to the systems of your body in small amounts of time with continued use. Even if the hard drugs were made legal, many people who used them as intended and did quite a bit of damage to their body in a short amount of time would sue any company that produces those drugs into oblivion.

[Iggy]

My response to legalizing stuff is what about all the additives that companies will put into their products to encourage addiction, maximize their profits and with very little regard for the health impacts.

Actually my mother agrees with the idea that smoking cigarettes will naturally progress into smoking weed LOL. She means well...I'm going to stick with that theory anyway.

I'm working on giving up the smoking habit. I'm also horrified with the whole nicobate replacement scenario where I gather that people are simply going from one addiction to another...I have started nicobate...but upon reading the statistics I gather that many don't break the addiction cycle using nicotine replacements. Ah well, no one said it was going to be easy.

I used to smoke too- and I tried countless times to quit. I used the 3 step patch. Can't remember the brand name. I was very careful using it as I have high blood pressure. It states that one of the side effects is graphic dreams. Yes, I had graphic dreams the entire time I was using this product- but they were not bad dreams.

Unbeknown to me, my entire family had each put my name into their Temples. My family is strung out throughout the US. They were praying for me to lick this nasty habit.

I have been smoke free since my birthday 1998! Each year the Dr tells me my lungs are looking better and better, same with my esophagus! I smoked menthols for nearly 3 decades!

One thing that I urge you to do is find a good habit to replace the hand to mouth habit you get from smoking. Like eating raw veggies instead of eating other foods. Keep the veggies varied too. I only ate carrot and celery. If I were to do it over I would have included every raw veggie that the grocery stores offered and without the dip!

Good luck to you- my prayers are with you.