Anti-LDS sites

[Guest User-Removed]

Just an outside thought--aren't seminary and Institute classes a type of "para-church" ministry? In other words, though they are clearly church-sponsored, they take place outside the confines of typical ward activities. So, if you disallow remuneration for these positions, will BYU professors be next?

In Utah and possibly other states, they have something called "Release Time"...Seminary Teachers in these areas are considered paid employees of CES.

In California, they use Early Morning Seminary, and utilized "volunteer labor"

[Guest User-Removed]

I'm not waiting to be spoon fed. I live in a part of the country where access to LDS scholarship stuff islimited, except for FARMS and FAIR, which I also perused, although I took their stuff with a grain of salt, since they're not "officially" a church entity. I'm an hour away from the closest Deseret Book, and major university. Other than "Time Out for Women" I haven't heard any "symposiums" announced in my area, and I don't have cable. I guess I just wish they had a way for a person to study in-depth the history of the church without it costing a bunch of money to buy these scholarly books, go to these symposiums, or watch these cable shows. Not everyone has the funds for that kind of thing, even if they have the genuine desire.

If you have Dish or DirecTV you can get KBYU...alas, snow is correct...Line Upon Line...Precept Upon Precept...It's our responsiblity to study, learn, reason and then ask the Lord.

It worked for Joseph...It works for us.

[Guest User-Removed]

Oh the hypocrisy.

Elphaba

:roflmbo::roflmbo:

I could responsed...but why...Wait until Jesus visits you in Spirit Prison and gives you your get out of jail free card...

:roflmbo:

[Jenamarie]

I don't have cable MDS.

I guess looking at the community around me, I see a lot of people who aren't waiting to be spoon fed, just genuinely ignorant of what's out there. The Anti's leave flyers on cars. FARMS and FAIR don't advertize. I live in a community of mill workers, most of whom never went to college, and never had it instilled in them tha they could gain an education entirely on their own. It's a product of their upbringing, not something they willfully brought upon themselves. Many of them are barely scraping by to put food on the table. Buying books is out of the question. The vast majority of the mill workers still ask for paper paychecks to carry to the bank themselves, they don't trust "direct deposit". That's the kind of community this is.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, just trying to defend, I guess, those who don't know how to access the answers to the difficult questions. Don't dismiss them as being "lazy" or "waiting to be spoonfed". Maybe if the church just advertized a bit more about where answers to these questions can be found (even just a simple FARMS flyer to tack on the bullitein board) that would be a step towards helping these people know where they can go.

[rameumptom]

The Church does talk about it's history. The amount of LDS scholarship on LDS history dwarfs (by a long, long shot) the historical scholarship of practically every other Christian denomination save Catholicism. In addition to the many books, articles, and publications of LDS history, the Church teaches LDS history, in depth, in it's universities, and sponsors symposiums and the like in number of venues. Last year I went to several such Church sponsored symposiums where the very most controversial topics were freely discussed by the Church's (and world's) top experts on the subject matter.

If you are waiting to be spoon-fed, your in the wrong religion. We value intelligence, but you have to earn it.

I agree. The information is definitely out there, but a person has to earn it by doing the leg work. We had a symposium in April in Indianapolis at IUPUI, where Jan Shipps has established a strong Mormon History program in the Religious History Dept. 6 scholars, 1/2 LDS, discussed several interesting topics, and were not shy on key issues of today.

Fortunately, the Internet becomes a great tool, as there are many YouTube videos now available from FARMS, FAIR and other groups, as well as podcasts, etc. While an indepth understanding of things still requires personal research, these definitely add to the amount of information available.

[rameumptom]

MyDogSkip

Jolly...I grew up in a family that possesed 5 peep stones, one allegedly used by the Prophet himself. I have in a special box, 2 of those peep stones on display. I'll confess, they make many of my LDS friends very nervous.

Why would anyone need be nervous of the peep stones, except they do not understand LDS history and doctrine? There are several excellent books and articles that discuss the magickal world of Joseph Smith. That said, even Jesus used magickal forms to perform miracles (using clay on a blind man's eyes, or Paul's handkerchief for healing, for example).

Clearly, there is a mindset in much of Mormonism and Christianity as a whole that rejects the magickal forms used by ancient prophets and Jesus. Aaron's rod was nothing but an amulet, as was Moses' staff. Who else uses a staff for performing miracles, but Gandalf the Gray? The Urim and Thummim are a form of magic crystal ball, etc. God uses specific forms to accomplish his priestly work, and then the world copies those mannerisms in their worldly forms of magick.

[rameumptom]

I don't have cable MDS.

I guess looking at the community around me, I see a lot of people who aren't waiting to be spoon fed, just genuinely ignorant of what's out there. The Anti's leave flyers on cars. FARMS and FAIR don't advertize. I live in a community of mill workers, most of whom never went to college, and never had it instilled in them tha they could gain an education entirely on their own. It's a product of their upbringing, not something they willfully brought upon themselves. Many of them are barely scraping by to put food on the table. Buying books is out of the question. The vast majority of the mill workers still ask for paper paychecks to carry to the bank themselves, they don't trust "direct deposit". That's the kind of community this is.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, just trying to defend, I guess, those who don't know how to access the answers to the difficult questions. Don't dismiss them as being "lazy" or "waiting to be spoonfed". Maybe if the church just advertized a bit more about where answers to these questions can be found (even just a simple FARMS flyer to tack on the bullitein board) that would be a step towards helping these people know where they can go.

Let's see, FAIR is an all volunteer program with limited funds and volunteers. FARMS is a branch of BYU, with a focus on research, not defending the Church. Just how are these two groups supposed to compete with thousands of congregations that supply anti-Mormons with the funds and support they need? The answer is, they can't.

FAIR actually has pamphlets on line that members can download and print out to share with friends. How many people do that? How many members personally buy 500 Joseph Smith testimony pamphlets and put them on car windshields? I just don't see it happening much.

I do dismiss them as being lazy or wanting to be spoonfed. If they have questions, they CAN ask. Each member has a bishop, stake president, and perhaps a knowledgeable member in their ward/stake on these issues. I have lent books out of my personal library to people wanting to know more. I've also offered to give firesides and invite members into my home to discuss their questions with them. Most don't bother with either.

When IUPUI offered a Mormon Seminar in April, 70 people showed up out of 3 stakes in Indianapolis (not including the surrounding 5 stakes). That comes down to one of three things: 1. Members are just too busy with other things, 2. Lack of Interest, or 3. Lazy.

Funny thing is, I see members busy with activities and events continually outside the Church. But they didn't have time for a one day free seminar. Members continually tell me about books they are reading, and the closest they get to Church history is historical fiction.

Perhaps they aren't lazy. Maybe their priorities are elsewhere. And that's fine. But if that is the case, then they have no room to complain that this stuff is not available to them in the format they want. I've had to work hard for my understanding of the gospel, and while I can share bits and pieces of it, I cannot share all the understanding I've gained through the sacrifice.

It is like the 65 year old, life-time member who told me after I spoke on the BoM that she was inspired now to read the BoM all the way through for the first time in her life. What exactly prevented her from doing it before? I have no other idea except her priorities were elsewhere, or she was lazy.

[Misshalfway]

Snow, I'm a little confused - on one hand you're saying why should the Church offer members historical information, when it should stick with the basics; and on the other hand you're saying they do just that - teach LDS history.

Why not just offer its members a full balance of gospel, history (isn't the JS story history?), ministering, fellowship, etc. Why make excuses? Ignorance isn't always blissful. If its informative and beneficial in the long run, then its all good.

M.

Members are offered a balanced and focused study complete with gospel, history, ministering and fellowship just as you describe. Not to mention the consistent admonitions to make our homes the center of our gospel teaching and study. Personal study is always encouraged, if not prioritized.

No one is making excuses. If anyone in this church is ignorant, they had to try pretty hard at keeping their heads in the sand!

[rameumptom]

Members are offered a balanced and focused study complete with gospel, history, ministering and fellowship just as you describe. Not to mention the consistent admonitions to make our homes the center of our gospel teaching and study. Personal study is always encouraged, if not prioritized.

No one is making excuses. If anyone in this church is ignorant, they had to try pretty hard at keeping their heads in the sand!

Information is much more available today than ever before. There are LDS podcasts, blogs, email lists, YouTube videos, FARMS/Sunstone/Dialogue magazines, FAIR articles, and BYU TV and radio (both available on the Internet), and books available. Seems that only laziness or lack of time/priorities can be the only remaining reasons.

As it is, Nephi showed the way on this. He learned from his Father's Dream of the Tree of Life, but then made the effort to find out more about it in the only way he had available. Meanwhile, his brothers argued and complained about Lehi's teachings, because the details and explanations were not more available to them. Of course, they didn't pay the price Nephi did, so their excuse was "the Lord doesn't make such things known to us." Laziness has always been the key reason why members and others do not know the gospel or its history. And this is true with all religions. How many Bibles collect dust in Mormon, Baptist, Episcopelian, and Catholic homes?

[bytor2112]

Lots of great information if we are willing to seek. The best information comes not from non scriptural written sources, but rather non written or the kind that is written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Ever read Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon? Excellent!! But I still like the Spirit best.

[HiJolly]

Brilliant. Now let's talk about implementation. In most places Seminary teachers are early morning teachers, completely voluntary, so apparently the Church already agrees with you. In Utah, however, Seminary teachers are often full-time, teaching classes throughout the day as is done with Institute teachers.

I'm glad you agree with me. Not being a trained educator, yet having seen the CES Seminary program in play sans paid educators, I will leave the implementation up to those who know how to do it best.

I'll admit that to the implementation at the University level would be an interesting challenge, but certainly not beyond our inspired CES management personnel.

Why would the Church be better off without professional educators?

In my view, anyone who labors for Zion (especially those who teach the gospel) and does so for a paycheck, is a prime target for hypocracy. Case in point: Grant Palmer, author of "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins". Of course, he's not the only one, a less well known CES employee of similar vein is Richard C. Russell.

These men should have both resigned decades before they retired/were fired, yet they did not for only one reason: They were getting paid.

... by the way, you are misusing the word "priestcraft."

So. Please inform me. What is the acceptable use of the word?

HiJolly

[Maureen]

HiJolly said:

In my view, anyone who labors for Zion (especially those who teach the gospel) and does so for a paycheck, is a prime target for hypocracy. Case in point: Grant Palmer, author of "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins". Of course, he's not the only one, a less well known CES employee of similar vein is Richard C. Russell. These men should have both resigned decades before they retired/were fired, yet they did not for only one reason: They were getting paid.

I'm at a loss at wondering why so mean spirited about someone working for a living. Could you explain to me why you think Mr. Palmer was being a hypocrite when working for the CES. Here's a link that's interesting:My Years in the Church Education System, 1967-2001Grant H. PalmerGrant Palmer -- An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

[HiJolly]

I'm at a loss at wondering why so mean spirited about someone working for a living. Could you explain to me why you think Mr. Palmer was being a hypocrite when working for the CES. Here's a link that's interesting:My Years in the Church Education System, 1967-2001Grant H. PalmerGrant Palmer -- An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

I guess just using the word, regardless of the facts, mean's I'm "mean spirited"? I know Brother Palmer's story quite well, including having two mutual acquaintances that keep up with him on a regular basis.

Of course I don't have a problem with people working for a living. But not all jobs are the same. Brother Palmer was being a hypocrite because he was being paid to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ as a Mormon to Mormons, and he absolutely didn't believe it. He ceased having faith in Joseph Smith Jr and the foundations of the Church more than a decade ago. That's hypocrisy, in my book.

Doctrine & Covenants 42:14 And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith; and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach.

HiJolly

Edited June 25, 2008 by HiJolly
trying for a gentler tone

[Elphaba]

I could responsed...but why...Wait until Jesus visits you in Spirit Prison and gives you your get out of jail free card...

Christ is not going to visit those in the Spirit Prison.

For many reasons, I suspect I will see you there as well. And no, you can't sit next to me.

Elphaba

[Maureen]

Brother Palmer was being a hypocrite (as was Brother Russell) because they were being paid to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ as Mormons to Mormons, and they absolutely didn't believe it. They ceased having faith in Joseph Smith Jr and the foundations of the Church more than a decade ago. That's hypocrisy.

From what I read, Mr. Palmer was having problems with the LDS history and asked to teach inmates of all religions. He stuck with the NT and eventually took early retirement because he could not resolve his problems with church history. Sounds like integrity to me. Are you saying he is lying and you know better about his character than he does?

[Moksha]

Brother Palmer was being a hypocrite (as was Brother Russell) because they were being paid to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ as Mormons to Mormons, and they absolutely didn't believe it.

Having a different understanding of what happened does not negate all belief. If you strip away the legend of Santa Claus, does it negate ones belief in the rightness of giving to others?

Because one knows of embellishments along the way, does not mean they reject the message. I can't speak for these men, but I have read Brother Palmer's book and heard him say he is a believer, albeit with a differing understanding.

Edited June 25, 2008 by Moksha

[HiJolly]

From what I read, Mr. Palmer was having problems with the LDS history and asked to teach inmates of all religions. He stuck with the NT and eventually took early retirement because he could not resolve his problems with church history. Sounds like integrity to me. Are you saying he is lying and you know better about his character than he does?

No, I'm not.

I think what he did was better than just plowing ahead w/ business as usual. I suspect that had he not taken early retirement, he would have been justifiably fired before retirement came along, but I admit I don't *know* such is the case.

I'm saying that it is my opinon that he should not have been a CES employee, at the point that he stopped believing that the Church was restored by God through Joseph Smith. That would have shown Bro. Palmer's integrity. I don't blame him for wanting to get a paycheck. He was in a tough spot. But I don't have to like it, either.

The point of all this is, if the Church didn't pay people to teach the Gospel in the CES, this wouldn't have happened. And it's not limited to Bro. Palmer.

HiJolly

[Maureen]

The point of all this is, if the Church didn't pay people to teach the Gospel in the CES, this wouldn't have happened. And it's not limited to Bro. Palmer.

So it's really money that's the culprit? It's okay for someone who doesn't believe the gospel to still teach it, just as long as he doesn't get paid for it? (I'm slightly kidding). I think it's very hard to make something like struggling with history or doctrine as a black and white statement that they flat out don't believe anymore. I think it's more complicated than that. Sorting out beliefs due to new information can take time.

[HiJolly]

So it's really money that's the culprit? It's okay for someone who doesn't believe the gospel to still teach it, just as long as he doesn't get paid for it? (I'm slightly kidding). I think it's very hard to make something like struggling with history or doctrine as a black and white statement that they flat out don't believe anymore. I think it's more complicated than that. Sorting out beliefs due to new information can take time.

My initial arguement is that if we take the money out of the equation, it's easier for people to deal with the problem with integrity. They can leave the position/situation without financial distress.

I know people who have 'prestigious' Church callings that lose their testimonies but choose to 'fake it' so as to not lose social or familial status, as well. I think that is very regrettable, also. I wish it never happened.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Having a different understanding of what happened does not negate all belief. If you strip away the legend of Santa Claus, does it negate ones belief in the rightness of giving to others?

I know, Moksha.

Because one knows of embellishments along the way, does not mean they reject the message. I can't speak for these men, but I have read Brother Palmer's book and heard him say he is a believer, albeit with a differing understanding.

This is a minefield that I choose not to enter, M. I read the book too, and I know he says he believes in Christ.

HiJolly

[Elphaba]

I've read the article.>snip<. . . free of any bias or inaccuracy.

Point taken, and I agree.

I went to MADD (not my favorite place) to see if I could find any additional information about the miracle. I found the following:

"When Brigham Young reported to church members in April 1849 on agricultural progress during the previous year, he did not note the gulls at all."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Most of the early plots were destroyed in the month of May by crickets and a frost which continued occasionally till June while the latter harvest was injured more or less by drought, by frost, which commenced its injuries about October 10, and by the outbreak of cattle. The brethren were not sufficiently numerous to fight the crickets, irrigate the crops, and fence the farm of their extensive plantings; consequently they suffered heavy losses, though the experience of the past year is sufficient to prove that valuable crops may be raised in the valley by attentive and judicious management.

Although little was said about the role of the gulls in saving the crops at the time, the inspirational aspects of the episode were emphasized over time until it came to be regarded as a unique incident in Mormon history. Such an interpretation ignores the fact that gulls and other birds returned regularly each spring to Mormon settlements, devouring crickets, grasshoppers, worms, and other insects. But the episode was providential to the colonists who needed food.

Eugene E. Campbell, "Establishing Zion: The Mormon Church in the American West, 1847-1869", p.30

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

... it's up to $5.15 now.

Pure genious! What better way to shut me up?

Do you take checks?

Elphaba

[Guest User-Removed]

Christ is not going to visit those in the Spirit Prison.

For many reasons, I suspect I will see you there as well. And no, you can't sit next to me.

Elphaba

The only thing more frightening...than seeing you in Spirit Prison...would be having to serve my time sitting playing Dominoes with you and snow...and then realizing that Spirit Prison is a long open mic night...and the sole performer is Moksha....

[abqfriend]

Hi,

My husband and I are Roman Catholic. There are a lot of anti web sites and literature against our faith tradition as well. So the anti sites are not confined to anti-LDS web sites.

I do not think one is converted to a given faith with an anti approach. There are many misconceptins about what members of the LDS Church believe, as there are about my own faith tradition.

Anti web sites will not go away. For some, it is easier to attack someone than to learn about them and their beliefs and get to know them and find some common ground for discussions of faith.

One huge strength that the LDS church has is its Missionary efforts! Sacred Scripture/The Bible tells us to go out two-by-two in reaching others-but few churches-including my own do that. Getting to know another person on their faith journey and allowing them to get to know you in sharing your faith journey/beliefs is a gradual approach.

So-skip the anti sites-they will not go away.

Reach out to others in a personal loving manner with your message and you will go far in furthering the work of the Church.

-Carol

[Elphaba]

. . . and the sole performer is Moksha...

As if you'd shut up long enough for anyone to hear him.

If Moksha does deign to visit us in the SP, you have to shut it during his open mic or I'm going to Paradise to get the teacher.

Elphaba

[Snow]

From what I read, Mr. Palmer was having problems with the LDS history and asked to teach inmates of all religions. He stuck with the NT and eventually took early retirement because he could not resolve his problems with church history. Sounds like integrity to me. Are you saying he is lying and you know better about his character than he does?

Palmer is the epitome of hypocrisy.

He worked for the CES for 30 plus years and took early retirement (4 years), not because he had any ethical concerns reconciling his beliefs but because he wanted to finally publish is book... a very biased, and one-sided book, antagonistic towards the Church, that he had been working on for the previous 20 years while employed by the very Church he sought to harm. What's more he did it under a false and assumed identity to protect himself from what would have been the just displeasure of his employer.

I've met Palmer and talked to him at length about his beliefs and his book. I found him to be full of it. He applied a standard to the Church that he refused to apply to historical Christianity. I pressed him about the his Golden Pot theory. He refused to say that he thought that JS plagiarized it, merely that he included in his book because he thought it interesting. He was passive-aggressive and refused to stand behind his work, instead hiding behind rumor, possibility and innuendo.