Church is not a social club - what does that mean to you?

[prospectmom]

I get what Ram says Vision not so much..... I think fellowshipping and socializing are important parts of the church experience where ever you go to church.......

We all need to be better examples and stewards of the chapel..... Respect and reverence should be taught and shown by all and it is the bishop and his councillers responsibility to teach , re-teach and love their congregation into following this important example that should be shown and taught, encouraged by all

[rameumptom]

I agree that the faithful can still have the spirit with them. However, the amount of spirit felt and experienced depends on the environment. Joseph Smith did not have his First Vision during supper time around the table. Nephi and Moses had their greatest visions high on a lonely mountain top. The Mount of Transfiguration occurred with few people involved, who were focused on the event. Peter was able to walk on water, until distracted by the tumult around him. Jesus was unable to do many miracles in Galilee, due to the lack of faith of those around him there. Are we seeing a pattern?

Sacred space can be desecrated and left desolate. The Spirit can leave a meeting if the majority of the people are not focused on it. All it takes is a few disbelieving or unprepared people to keep the Spirit and miracles from attending, or do you think it was a coincidence that Martin Harris had to withdraw in order for Oliver and David to see Moroni and the gold plates?

We can pretend that others do not impact the meeting, but they do. There's a reason why we are told not to speak, except in whispered voices, in the temple. There's a reason why they build foyers in chapels. There's a reason why the Lord tells us to talk to him in our closets and in the wilderness - because that is when we can create a sacred space that becomes holier than other times.

There is time to socialize and fellowship. But we need to make sure it does not impact on worship. No one can be saved without a fellowshipping worship with the Lord. I can be exalted without many friends, but I can't be saved without finding that sacred space and conversing with the Lord.

[prospectmom]

Your right Ram but we all have a responsibility to make our chapel as reverent as possible.

[rameumptom]

I think that God has to provide high mountains and temples for us, because most people are not too interested in sacred space. The world is just too entertaining to spend time meditating, praying, and being "still and know that I am God."

There is definitely time for socializing and fellowshipping. But these are useless, and even harmful, if they get in the way of spiritual experiences and revelation.

[Moksha]

There is definitely time for socializing and fellowshipping. But these are useless, and even harmful, if they get in the way of spiritual experiences and revelation.

Do you go into the chapel and immediately kneel down on the pew risers? Wait a minute, there are no risers or even confessional booths!

Regardless, one should be able to start their meditation and prayer in a reverent chapel if they choose to do so before the service.

[rameumptom]

I will often sit in the chapel very early (I am usually in PEC, etc), and it is amazing how quiet and reverent the chapel is. You can tell when it is about 15 minutes before Sacrament starts, because the crowd and noise level increase dramatically. The distraction and feeling changes dramatically from just 10 minutes before the noise occurs.

It wouldn't be so bad if the noise remained in the foyers, and then reverent people entered the chapel to sit and meditate. But it just isn't something LDS have learned to do yet.

[VisionOfLehi]

I agree that it affects how well we're able to focus on the Spirit, I just wanted to point out that they couldn't completely drive it away.

[prospectmom]

you need to look at yourselves and your families to help the tone found in the chapel we all have responsibility not just to complain but to make a positive difference.

[VisionOfLehi]

I wish I had a family to set straight!

LOL!

[prospectmom]

That explains why you seem to be so full fo yourself Vision. You have alot to learn and I look forward to seeing you change with the changes coming your way.

[ruthiechan]

VoL has a really good head on his shoulders, and makes some good points. People can cause the Spirit to withdraw from them because they choose to be offended by someone coming to church in jeans and a t-shirt. But if you choose not to be offended then the Spirit will be better able to abide with you inspite of the oddity of the person in jeans and t-shirt.

We must also remember not expect complete silence in the chapel. There will always be voices and the chatter of children. Small children are especially challenged in regulating their voices and often forget to tone things down. They are still learning.

And really this thread wasn't meant as a place to complain but to figure out what we really mean by the phrase "church is not a social club" and how that contrasts with a place of fellowship and love.

It seems to be that there is a balancing act between socializing and fellowshipping and reverential worship.

If you want a place of reverential silence that will not be cut off by children go to the Temple.

Edited July 3, 2008 by ruthiechan

[prospectmom]

Children don't bother me they are learning. Babies are beautiful and I think most folks try to balance the social and the reverence needed in the chapel especially during sacrament.

[Tough Grits]

Reverence is key.

True, we should only speak of the gospel when gathered at Church on Sunday's...but we are human.

Maybe the line between fellowshipping and socializing is very fine and left up to interpretation and the Spirit.

What if I have nothing in common with another member, but would like to have some light conversation with them between classes? If I knew that they liked football, then maybe asking them how their favorite team did that week WOULD be fellowshipping rather than socializing.

I believe in following the Spirit. If the Spirit prompts me to ask a member a question or offer a comment that is not gospel related, then it is not for another to judge.

Vision, I agree with you in your thoughts on how the Spirit cannot be driven from us in Church unless we allow it to be. Even when a person makes a weird comment in class or during a talk, as long as it is not a subversive comment against the Church or its teachings, then it is for me to look beyond the mistake and focus on the other good things that might have been said up to that point. Or, when prompted by the Spirit, to offer a clarifying comment during a class to get the discussion back on track. But how could a person follow a prompting of the Spirit and offer a clarifying comment, if they became so upset at the person who offered an off-base comment, that they lost the Spirit? We need to try our hardest to retain the Spirit, so that we will be able to receive promptings that might help that person, or others that might be listening, in getting back on track and back to true doctrine and true principles.

I have a hard time paying attention to monotone speakers, speakers who only read from their talk, or who just don't speak well.

That is MY issue not theirs. It is for me to listen with the Spirit, as much as it is for another to teach with the Spirit. How can I have the Spirit with me as I listen, if I am only focused on their faults, instead of the actual core message that they are trying to deliver?

There are members who get upset with me because I close the library 10 minutes before sacrament, so that I may sit with my family and enjoy the prelude music and focus my heart and mind on receiving the sacrament.

If somebody really needs something right away, I will get up and go to the library...or I might politely ask if it is something that I could do for them AFTER the sacrament meeting is over.

When I do leave the library to sit down in the chapel, I do not focus on who is talking to who, who is being too loud, who needs to be sitting down, etc.

Rather, I am looking forward to sitting down in the pew next to my family and enjoying the peace of the Spirit...which drowns out all the other noise and commotion.

It does bug me when members talk during the sacrament or during the talks...but again, that is my problem. I need to learn to focus for myself.

None of us are perfect. We just need to try to do the best we can.

But I do believe that we have more ability than we think in retaining a peaceful spirit even when others are not being perfect saints.

Just my thoughts.

[ruthiechan]

You have the library open during your sacrament meeting?

I have never heard of that, and I used to be a librarian. . . If my meeting is at 11 then the morning ward librarian will have the library open, but if I were the morning librarian then the library did not open until the end of sacrament meeting though I woud leave right after the last talk to give myself a few minutes for preparation. The only time that changed was by special arrangement.

Edited July 3, 2008 by ruthiechan
fixing tenses

[bytor2112]

or sleep during the talks.......

[ruthiechan]

or sleep during the talks.......

Doesn't bother me as long as they're not snoring!

Though, I remember commenting to one brother, you must've had a long night. He said no and that closing his eyes helped him focus on the words of the speaker. . .

[prospectmom]

when I was a child I asked my Aunt why the Bishop was sleeping...... She said he wasn't sleeping" "He's praying for your soul". I had a friend who was a bishop and I always thanked him for praying for my soul when his eyes were closed during service... People aren't always asleep nor are they always praying sometimes they are sitting quietly avoiding visual distractions to get closer and glean more from a speaker

[Tough Grits]

You have the library open during your sacrament meeting?

I have never heard of that, and I used to be a librarian. . . If my meeting is at 11 then the morning ward librarian will have the library open, but if I were the morning librarian then the library did not open until the end of sacrament meeting though I would leave right after the last talk to give myself a few minutes for preparation. The only time that changed was by special arrangement.

No, either you misunderstood, or I typed my thoughts wrong...LOL LOL

Sacrament starts at 9 a.m., but the bishop has asked that we be in our seats 10 minutes BEFORE 9 a.m.

I get to Church at 8:30 a.m. to open the library. But I close the library at 8:50 so that I can go sit down with my family 10 minutes before sacrament meeting starts.

However, some members (who run late) think I should have that library open right up to 9 a.m.

Like I said (or I thought I said) I will go open the library even once I have closed the library if it is a true emergency, otherwise I politely tell the brother/sister that I will do or get what they need AFTER sacrament meeting...which for us ends at 10:15 a.m.

I only open the library between each meeting or class. I feel it is important for me to be on time to Sacrament, Sunday School, and Relief Society. If somebody has a true emergency I will keep the library open later, even though it puts me late getting to class.

Basically, I just follow the Spirit. But I am trying to set an example that we should all be better prepared on Sunday's and not have to run around like chickens with our heads cut off.

We should also be considerate of others who may actually want to be in the meetings and be there on time!

I need EVERY bit of class time I can get.

I have known librarians to sit in the library throughout the entire Sunday, not going to Sunday School or to their Priesthood/Relief Society meetings.

I can't afford to do that. I need to be in my classes learning and partaking of the Spirit.

Also, if I have that library open at all times, and the members know it, then they will not do their part to be in their classes on time either!

BTW: I am by myself in that library. I have no assistants. So, that makes it a little more frustrating for me, being the ONLY person that the members can come to, to get their supplies and copies. *SIGH*

[ruthiechan]

No, either you misunderstood, or I typed my thoughts wrong...LOL LOL

Sacrament starts at 9 a.m., but the bishop has asked that we be in our seats 10 minutes BEFORE 9 a.m.

I get to Church at 8:30 a.m. to open the library. But I close the library at 8:50 so that I can go sit down with my family 10 minutes before sacrament meeting starts.

However, some members (who run late) think I should have that library open right up to 9 a.m.

Like I said (or I thought I said) I will go open the library even once I have closed the library if it is a true emergency, otherwise I politely tell the brother/sister that I will do or get what they need AFTER sacrament meeting...which for us ends at 10:15 a.m.

I only open the library between each meeting or class. I feel it is important for me to be on time to Sacrament, Sunday School, and Relief Society. If somebody has a true emergency I will keep the library open later, even though it puts me late getting to class.

Basically, I just follow the Spirit. But I am trying to set an example that we should all be better prepared on Sunday's and not have to run around like chickens with our heads cut off.

We should also be considerate of others who may actually want to be in the meetings and be there on time!

I need EVERY bit of class time I can get.

I have known librarians to sit in the library throughout the entire Sunday, not going to Sunday School or to their Priesthood/Relief Society meetings.

I can't afford to do that. I need to be in my classes learning and partaking of the Spirit.

Also, if I have that library open at all times, and the members know it, then they will not do their part to be in their classes on time either!

BTW: I am by myself in that library. I have no assistants. So, that makes it a little more frustrating for me, being the ONLY person that the members can come to, to get their supplies and copies. *SIGH*

Thanks for the clarification.

There was more than one librarian when I had that calling, so we always were able to go to RS. We'd try to get there before the announcements were over and leave during closing song. Though we always stayed open during Sunday School. It's interesting to see how we can have the same calling but things turn out so differently.

[Tough Grits]

It's interesting to see how we can have the same calling but things turn out so differently.

Very true.

[Moksha]

or sleep during the talks.......

Perhaps this is one of the High Priest duties listed as "other duties as assigned".

[Misshalfway]

lol!!!!

[MorningStar]

I would stay that means you shouldn't go to church just for the people, but for the teachings too.

[skalenfehl]

This is an interesting topic. I'm posting for the first time. To me a social club is a place to casually hang out with friends for friendly activities. While the church has many programs to further the social and fellowshipping efforts of its members, it is first and foremost Christ's organization to accomplish its three-fold mission:

1. Proclaim the Gospel

2. Perfect the Saints

3. Redeem the Dead

[rameumptom]

Perhaps this is one of the High Priest duties listed as "other duties as assigned".

I was recently in a PEC meeting, when there was a small child in a room next door crying its head off. it wouldn't stop. Finally, the bishop got up and walked out of the room. In a moment, the child stopped crying and the bishop returned.

Someone asked the bishop what had happened to the small child? The bishop answered that he ordained the baby as a high priest, and it promptly fell asleep!