BoM evidence?

[azazel420]

Question that's been on my mind for some time. According to the Book of Mormon, Christ visited America and established his church on the continent. He had direct contact with at least some Native Americans and many no doubt would of heard of him indirectly. His church on the American continents lasted for several generations and was at least somewhat widespread.

Seems to me like such an event would spark some enthusiasm, as far as general human tendencies go, some record of this would have to have existed outside of the Book of Mormon.

What evidence or record of this event or other Book of Mormon events can we find outside of the Book of Mormon itself? Are there any other records anywhere or artifacts outside of what's given by the church to support the view that Christianity was ever part of American culture prior to European exploration/colonization?

[Anthesian]

Question that's been on my mind for some time. According to the Book of Mormon, Christ visited America and established his church on the continent. He had direct contact with at least some Native Americans and many no doubt would of heard of him indirectly. His church on the American continents lasted for several generations and was at least somewhat widespread.

Seems to me like such an event would spark some enthusiasm, as far as general human tendencies go, some record of this would have to have existed outside of the Book of Mormon.

What evidence or record of this event or other Book of Mormon events can we find outside of the Book of Mormon itself? Are there any other records anywhere or artifacts outside of what's given by the church to support the view that Christianity was ever part of American culture prior to European exploration/colonization?

Simply put...No. There is no real archeological findings that provide proof of the historical accurateness of the Book of Mormon. FARMS has found nothing substantial either. At best, the Book of Mormon is an inspired document for principle and moral values. Historical accuracy is void.

Dwayne

[sixpacktr]

What about the belief in Quetzlcoatl? The fact that the Aztecs were waiting for 'a Great White God?' to return as he had promised and mistook Cortez and others for him?

I'm not sure if the Mayan/Aztec/Olmec languages have been cracked? I don't think so, so how could we tell anyway? Maybe all of their writings we have discovered mention nothing but Christ?

[skalenfehl]

There are many "coincidental evidences" but no solid proof. The Stella 5 stone at Izapa is one. There's another thread or two on here discussing this, Quetzelcoatl and more. I'll have to dig it up. Keep in mind that proof has never worked for those who make up their minds not to believe. Lazarus was brought back from the dead, great miracles were performed by the Savior himself. Laban and Lemuel saw angels and marvelous things and they still rebelled. Even Cain spoke with God. That wasn't enough. If the jungles of South America were swept clean and the layers of Earth peeled off for us to behold the proof, that still would not be enough for those who choose not to follow the Lord or accept the truth, who already made up their minds that they want nothing to do with it. God's people are a tested people.

[bytor2112]

As for archaeological evidences...... mankind has had thousands of years to uncover Biblical sites and evidences and less than 180 years

to unearth BOM evidences. The evidences and proof of the BOM are written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. If Zarahemla were found tomorrow, people would still not believe. People still challenge the Bible-evidences or not. If we are to believe only after seeing, we would not need to walk by faith in this life. Heavenly Father gave us the key to the mystery of whether or not the BOM is true.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

[HiJolly]

The most interesting evidence I've seen lately is the finding of Nahom in the Middle East. It was referred to in the Book of Mormon, but no one knew it's actual location until recently.

HiJolly

[DigitalShadow]

The most interesting evidence I've seen lately is the finding of Nahom in the Middle East. It was referred to in the Book of Mormon, but no one knew it's actual location until recently.

HiJolly

I first saw that on the "Journey of Faith" documentary that I watched with my wife. After looking into it further, I was somewhat disappointed in how it was presented. The name of the place found was written as NHM since vowels in Hebrew are spoken and not written. That means it could have been pronounced Nahom, but that does not account for the current pronunciation of the location and tribal area which is said to be Nihm.

While it is an interesting coincidence and the pronounciation could have changed over time, I don't know that I'd call it the most compelling piece of evidence.

Source: Nahom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[DigitalShadow]

Question that's been on my mind for some time. According to the Book of Mormon, Christ visited America and established his church on the continent. He had direct contact with at least some Native Americans and many no doubt would of heard of him indirectly. His church on the American continents lasted for several generations and was at least somewhat widespread.

Seems to me like such an event would spark some enthusiasm, as far as general human tendencies go, some record of this would have to have existed outside of the Book of Mormon.

What evidence or record of this event or other Book of Mormon events can we find outside of the Book of Mormon itself? Are there any other records anywhere or artifacts outside of what's given by the church to support the view that Christianity was ever part of American culture prior to European exploration/colonization?

This question has been on my mind as well for some time. In fact, the way you state it, it is almost verbatim what I've been thinking. From what I can tell, most of the evidence supporting the Book of Mormon has been in the form of inconclusive 'coincidences'. However, if I make 1000 vague predictions right now, I can gaurantee that some of them will come true. That does not mean they were divinely inspired or that all of them will come true, it is simply probability.

In the end, it comes down to faith, just as all other religions do. If you had conclusive evidence, it would cease to be religion and you wouldn't need faith.

[bytor2112]

While the once-frequent jabs at Nephi's tale of finding Bountiful in the Arabian Peninsula have lost their punch with the discovery of a remarkable and hard-to-ignore candidate for Bountiful in Oman, other aspects of Nephi's story continue to draw anti-Mormon fire. One of the most prominent targets is the Valley of Lemuel and the River of Laman. Anti-Mormons recently have been proclaiming that no such river exists--a "slam-dunk" argument against the entire Book of Mormon. The attack is based on the following verses from 1 Nephi chapter 2:

2 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded my father, even in a dream, that he should take his family and depart into the wilderness....

4 And it came to pass that he departed into the wilderness....

5 And he came down by the borders near the shore of the Red Sea; and he traveled in the wilderness in the borders which are nearer the Red Sea; and he did travel in the wilderness with his family, which consisted of my mother, Sariah, and my elder brothers, who were Laman, Lemuel, and Sam.

6 And it came to pass that when he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a river of water.

7 And it came to pass that he built an altar of stones, and made an offering unto the Lord, and gave thanks unto the Lord our God.

8 And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.

9 And when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!

10 And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!

The critics chuckle that there are NO RIVERS flowing into the Red Sea, at least not anything that could be said to be "continually" flowing. Sure, a few wadis might get a momentary trickle during a rainstorm, but nothing that could be the basis for Lehi's lecture to Laman. Yet the Book of Mormon has Lehi and his family stopping in an impressive valley with a river that continually (year round?) flows into the Red Sea. Slam dunk for the antis? No way!(Jeff Lindsay)

An excellent candidate location for the River of Laman and the Valley of Lemuel has been found in an entirely plausible location. Photographic evidence and other documentation is provided in George D. Potter's article, "A New Candidate in Arabia for the Valley of Lemuel," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 8, No. 1, 1999, pp. 54-63. Potter reports that in looking for a well in Arabia, about 8 miles north of Maqna on the Gulf of Aqaba, he stumbled across a magnificent narrow canyon that ended in a palm-lined cove on the coast of the Red Sea. The canyon actually has a small stream that flows continually, throughout the entire year, and is surrounded by very tall mountain walls. This valley is known as Wadi Tayyib al-Ism ("Valley of the Good Name"). The article is available to FARMS members online, but to see the photos, you need to read the printed publication. (Call FARMS at 1-800-327-6715 to join or purchase materials.) Meanwhile, I've received permission from author George Potter to display two relevant photos that he kindly sent me:

George Potter's Photos from the Valley of Lemuel

The River Laman The Valley Cove

A 35 minute video, Discovering the Valley of Lemuel, filmed entirely on location, can be ordered by sending a check for $24.50 to:

The Nephi Project, PO Box 300, Bear River City, UT, 84301.

Edited July 2, 2008 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

No garden spots in the Arabian Peninsula?

Enjoy these scenes from the coast of Oman, used with kind permission from the official site for the Ministry of Information of the Sultanate of Oman, Magneto (that's right: it's dot "om", not "com"). The original, larger photos are in their beautiful photogallery. To access it, go to their site and click on "gallery" and then "tourism," and then click through their photos. Amazing views! Also see the photogallery at ExploreOman.com, and my post on Oman photos at my blog, Mormanity.

After rain in Dhofar, near a candidate site for Bountiful (Wadi Sayq). Note the trees. A view in Salalah, another candidate region for Bountiful in Oman.

[prisonchaplain]

bytor2112;223169: As for archaeological evidences...... mankind has had thousands of years to uncover Biblical sites and evidences and less than 180 years

to unearth BOM evidences.

But don't you think that archeology has done more in the last 180 years, than in the 1,800 years before that. Eventually the "science" should verify our scriptural understandings. If it contradicts, we at least need to reevaluate. I'm guessing that the majority of Christians, for example, remain convinced that God created the world, but that he might have done so more than 6000 years ago.

[azazel420]

What about the belief in Quetzlcoatl? The fact that the Aztecs were waiting for 'a Great White God?' to return as he had promised and mistook Cortez and others for him?

I'm not sure if the Mayan/Aztec/Olmec languages have been cracked? I don't think so, so how could we tell anyway? Maybe all of their writings we have discovered mention nothing but Christ?

On Quetzalcoatl, this site has some interesting information:

Queztalcoatl and Jesus -- No Resemblance!

[bytor2112]

Prison Chaplain, I agree that more has been done in the past 180 years. A bit easier for Biblical evidence since we know for a certainty where much of the events took place. But again, there are those who will not believe the Bible is true either, no matter what the evidence shows. It all comes back to faith and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us the truth......I am still learning. Edited July 2, 2008 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

"Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon" is a really good read.......

[bytor2112]

Quetzalcoatl, the Maya Maize God, and Jesus Christ--Diane Wirth's detailed analysis of the possible connections between Quetzalcoatl and Jesus Christ in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 11, No. 1, 2002.

Check it out!!!

[azazel420]

I don't think there are many intelligent people who doubt the historical context of the Bible existed. Perhaps there are disagreements into how far it goes and there are certainly people who doubt the religious connections of the Bible.

To me, accepting the historical context of something is important to even beginning to accept the greater picture. With the bible that's fairly easy to do for the most part (though I think some passages must be viewed allegorically IE the Genesis account must be to rationalize it with current evidence and there are others).

[NeuroTypical]

I just wanted to make sure this nonsense from Anthesian did not go un-countered.

Simply put...No. There is no real archeological findings that provide proof of the historical accurateness of the Book of Mormon.

Ok, so we haven't been able to prove the BoM (and hence the existence of God) via archaeology. Fine. But this thread isn't asking for proof, it's asking for evidence. And yes, there is quite a bit. None of it is conclusive, much of it is not very persuasive, but yes, there is evidence.

FARMS has found nothing substantial either.

I'm thinking your definition of "substantial" is a bit different than most people's. I've occasionally asked critics of my church what they would do if tomorrow non-LDS archaologists discovered the sword of Laban, horse and elephant bones, Zarehemla, Lehi's grave with DNA matching inhabitants of Jerusalem in 600b.c., etc. Many of them aren't even dented - the church is false! Nothing that they can ever see or experience will ever lead them to believe otherwise! I wonder how Anthesian would answer...

At best, the Book of Mormon is an inspired document for principle and moral values. Historical accuracy is void.

Not true. At best, the BoM is exactly what it says it is - a legitimate, true record of people who lived in the Americas, and a 2nd witness of the literal existence of Jesus Christ.

LM

[azazel420]

Yes, I'm not asking for "proof" as that's a pretty substantial burden to prove that any specific group of people lived or did anything through archaeological evidence. Preferably I'd like to see something plausible that stems from scientific study, preferably independently of the church but at least something that's independently verifiable.

[bytor2112]

In III Nephi it describes catastrophic events that occur at the time of Christs crucifixion. Events like Volcanic eruptions and cities being buried under water. Recently, past couple of years they have discovered ancient cities underneath lakes in South America and their is definitely evidence of Volcanic eruptions around that time in that part of the world. Don't have access to sources, but I will try and provide. I believe I saw some of this on Discovery.

[azazel420]

Quetzalcoatl, the Maya Maize God, and Jesus Christ--Diane Wirth's detailed analysis of the possible connections between Quetzalcoatl and Jesus Christ in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 11, No. 1, 2002.

Check it out!!!

Where might I find it? Google wasn't forthcoming for me.

[DigitalShadow]

I don't think there are many intelligent people who doubt the historical context of the Bible existed. Perhaps there are disagreements into how far it goes and there are certainly people who doubt the religious connections of the Bible.

To me, accepting the historical context of something is important to even beginning to accept the greater picture. With the bible that's fairly easy to do for the most part (though I think some passages must be viewed allegorically IE the Genesis account must be to rationalize it with current evidence and there are others).

If you have faith that miracles were performed and the son of God was sent to the earth, are the stories of the Book of Mormon that much harder to have faith in? There are still cultures deep in South America that have never had contact with the outside world, is it so much of a stretch that a civilization rose and fell without archeological evidence and God wants us to take that on faith?

In the bible, the miracles which there is no scientific evidence of require the faith, in the Book of Mormon the historical context is part of what must be taken on faith.

Edited July 2, 2008 by DigitalShadow
Added last part

[bytor2112]

Quetzalcoatl, the Maya Maize God, and Jesus Christ

[omega0401]

Quetzalcoatl, the Maya Maize God, and Jesus Christ

Bytor, your link did not work for me. See if this one works.

Quetzalcoatl, the Maya Maize God, and Jesus Christ

[NeuroTypical]

Thank you for the link!

Despite discrepancies among Quetzalcoatl myths in colonial sources and the fairly good mythology and symbolism in pre-Columbian inscriptions and iconography, we are left with several crucial points about Quetzalcoatl and the Maya Maize God that apply to Christ's premortal state, his mission on earth, and his role in the hereafter. Are there plausible links? Yes. Are there significant differences? Again, yes. This review should help us to see a complex picture of continuities and discontinuities between Quetzalcoatl and the Savior. Because parts of the picture are rather faint, there is a need for caution in our studies when we approach the intriguing and mysterious figures of Quetzalcoatl and the Maya Maize God and attempt to draw connections between them and the resurrected Jesus.

Very helpful article.

LM

[azazel420]

If you have faith that miracles were performed and the son of God was sent to the earth, are the stories of the Book of Mormon that much harder to have faith in? There are still cultures deep in South America that have never had contact with the outside world, is it so much of a stretch that a civilization rose and fell without archeological evidence and God wants us to take that on faith?

In the bible, the miracles which there is no scientific evidence of require the faith, in the Book of Mormon the historical context is part of what must be taken on faith.

I don't have faith that the miracles in The Bible were performed. I just have reason to believe that the historical context behind those stories was real, The Bible deals with real events that can be independently verified, with a religious spin that requires faith.

With the Book of Mormon I don't see that the historical context is largely supported by real findings. I also don't see the argument of an isolated society. There were many tribes depicted in the Book of Mormon and the earlier church position stated that the Book of Mormon tribes were the principal ancestry of the Pre-Columbian Native American population. That view was reversed when genetic testing and profiling became a possibility and it was determined that the predominant genetic links were much closer to Siberian and Mongoloid tribes.

If it were simply an unproven postulate but a plausible scientific explanation then a lot of evidence wouldn't be needed but it seems to me the reigning scientific knowledge of today in the field doesn't simply not support the Book of Mormon but much of it flies in it's face. That doesn't mean it's not true but it means the need for plausible evidence, in my mind, is greater for the Book of Mormon then The Bible.