Mark Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Hi Jenda, Can I, according to your churches teachings, spend eternity in the presence of God by just believing in what Christ did for me and accepting His Grace and by letting Him take care of the rest? Hi Ray, So does that mean you want to go through each verse and test them? Lets start with Psalms 82:6? I'll start it out by asking you who are these "gods" God said they will "die like men"? Are you saying that gods can die? Mark John 1:12 Mark John 1:12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Originally posted by Mark@ Aug 6 2004, 01:40 PMHi Ray,So does that mean you want to go through each verse and test them? Lets start with Psalms 82:6? I'll start it out by asking you who are these "gods" God said they will "die like men"? Are you saying that gods can die?Yes, gods can die, and these died like men. Jesus was a god and God among gods, yet He died too, didn’t He.Now look at the rest of the verse and see that the persons God was referring to were children of the most High.Do you suppose that statement applied only to those persons, or is there a more general application?If you don’t know the answer to that, look at all the other scriptures I gave you and any others that you know of.Don’t get stuck on one verse thinking that all the answers to everything are in those few words.Some truths are found in the scriptures as a whole, so try to see everything in context and in harmony with all other scriptures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amillia Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 I don't post but for Ray; Mark is not going to listen to anyone but himself. Don't waste your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Originally posted by Amillia@Aug 6 2004, 04:35 PM I don't post but for Ray;Mark is not going to listen to anyone but himself. Don't waste your time. I know, because I've talked with Mark before, and what I post is more for the benefit of other persons reading this thread than for Mark.But thank you for your concern, :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 Bat said:I was taught this in church. I'm shocked that I have to check with the historical department to see whether or not what I was taught in the LDS church was ever taught by the LDS church.I'm also shocked. One would think that since you apparently remember being taught this in church that you wouldn't be asking for confirmation from someone who probably wasn't in class with you when you were taught whatever it was that you were taught!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenda Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Mark@Aug 6 2004, 01:40 PM Hi Jenda,Can I, according to your churches teachings, spend eternity in the presence of God by just believing in what Christ did for me and accepting His Grace and by letting Him take care of the rest? If you follow the covenants he designed just for that purpose (you can find them throughout the NT), yes, you can spend eternity with God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 Hi Jenda, What NT Covenants must I follow to be in Gods presence, according to RLDS teachings? Ray, So your saying that these gods, who were treating Israel poorly, were wicked god's? So God had to kill them, or at the least take there godhood away and let them die as men? Wouldn't it be clearer if you read in context that the gods (elohim, lit. mighty ones, or gods little g) were the rulers of Israel at this time (the judges ) and they were children of God as all Israel was? And because they were wicked God was reminding Israel that they were just men and will die as such and that he along is judge of the earth? Jesus died in His humanity, not in His Deity, God cannot stop existing. Are you saying there were gods here on earth ruling Israel? You have just opened a very large can of worms Ray, but at least it is in line with some of the older LDS teachings that even elohim can fall. Matt. 5:48, From verse 43 to 48 Jesus is preaching on the mount, to both men and WOMEN, that LOVE is the most important thing, he even tells the to greet the tax collector in love and if we do this we will be perfect as God in that sense. We know that we can onlt be perfefct in Gods eyes by being clothed in Christs righteousness, which was imputed to us by His work on the cross. It is very clear that we can not reach perfection through works of the law, read the Book of Galations, Hebrews, and Romans to start with. This does not in any way shape of form imply that we can become God, the bible is very clear when it says there 'was no God before me, nor will there be any other God after me' ( paraphrase from Isaiah). Wer can only be perfect in Christ, thats the whole point of the NT, that Jesus died for us so we can be in Him and that He will ALWAYS intercecde for us ( Hebrews 7), He is our High Priest forever. Take you time and study this Ray, don't just look in your topical guide, really study and tell me where I error in what I just said, fair? I'm going on vacation I'll catch up in a week or so. Amillia, You said "Mark is not going to listen to anyone but himself" You almost got it, I will listen only to myself in that I will honestly check out every thing by testing it with what the bible says and in prayer. Do me a favor and copy some of the things here by ray and send them to different LDS authorites and check him out, I would be careful in that he is not real clear even what LDS doctine is, see our thread on the nature of Jesus. Ask your bishop if LDS doctrine teaches that Jesus was always God and ask him to show you where it says that. He said he is a prophet, as mmember of the church for over 30 years I know what the LDS teachers have taught and Ray isn't on the same page as them on many issues, be careful. Mark John 1;12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Mark, To put it simply, Man is the offspring of God, and is God in embryo, with the full potential of becoming like our heavenly parents.In other words, Man and God are the same "species", and Man is simply a word we use to refer to a particular classification of being within the classification of being known as God.In other words, "Man" and "God" are words that are used to convey an idea, and one idea sometimes has something in common with another idea. In this case, these ideas are related in "kind", but not in "glory".Just as the embryo of Man has the potential to become an adult, either a wicked or righteous adult, righteous Man has the potential to become like God. In one sense Man is God already, because we are of the same species, but those of us here on Earth still have a lot of growing up to do before we will reach our full potential.Now, if you don't believe that what I'm saying is true, I hope at least you can see that what I'm saying is in agreement with "LDS" doctrine.See additional comments on the thread titled "False Teachers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JLHyde Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Faerie@Jul 31 2004, 10:03 AM I was never taught that I couldn't have caffeine :) I grew up drinking Mtn. Dew and Dr. Pepper...my parents always taught that it was fine as long as I didn't get addicted...:) That is the dumbest thing I ever heard! People who believe that so-called "rationale" [read "rationalization"] wouldn't know addiction if it hit them over the head!Let's see, Kirt Kobain, are you addicted to that white powder yet? Answer: Nope. Still loving it!What a joke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JLHyde Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Ray@Aug 7 2004, 10:10 PM Mark, To put it simply, Man is the offspring of God, and is God in embryo, with the full potential of becoming like our heavenly parents.In other words, Man and God are the same "species", and Man is simply a word we use to refer to a particular classification of being within the classification of being known as God.In other words, "Man" and "God" are words that are used to convey an idea, and one idea sometimes has something in common with another idea. In this case, these ideas are related in "kind", but not in "glory".Just as the embryo of Man has the potential to become an adult, either a wicked or righteous adult, righteous Man has the potential to become like God. In one sense Man is God already, because we are of the same species, but those of us here on Earth still have a lot of growing up to do before we will reach our full potential.Now, if you don't believe that what I'm saying is true, I hope at least you can see that what I'm saying is in agreement with "LDS" doctrine.See additional comments on the thread titled "False Teachers". I think that in addition to your "quad", you could use a good spinning jenny.Hint: You got a lot of yarn to spin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JLHyde Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Kevin@Aug 6 2004, 06:31 PMBat said:I was taught this in church. I'm shocked that I have to check with the historical department to see whether or not what I was taught in the LDS church was ever taught by the LDS church.I'm also shocked. One would think that since you apparently remember being taught this in church that you wouldn't be asking for confirmation from someone who probably wasn't in class with you when you were taught whatever it was that you were taught!!Bat has a very good point (and is probably a lot older than you, too)!I get his point, completely. For, if the "truth" keeps a'changing, from one decade--or even one lifetime--to the next, then truth is.....relative to...er, the "circumstances and situations" of the day...and time and age....and social climate....and...umm...the whims of the Leaders of the religion!Eeeks! Sounds more and more like a Homer Simpson episode-parody on cults!Oh, well! I'm with you, Fearless Leader ["times 15"][ X's 15][ or, heck, the Oligarchy at the top of the corporate pile....ain't that right, Gomer? (viz., corporal pyle).PS: Just read a conference talk about keeping [up] with changing circumstances and situations!Now, what was that idea associated with this thing called situational ethics, I'm wondering??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JLHyde Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by bat@Jul 30 2004, 12:24 AMUpon stumbiling across this apologetic website tonight, I was prompted to call the First Presidency and ask this question:"Did the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints EVER teach that black people were cursed and the descendants of Cain?"The person who answered the phone said: "Ummmmmmmmmm, I don't think so."To which I replied "You don't think so?"Her response was: "Actually, we're not allowed to give out that information, in case we give out false information."My next question was "Well is there anyone there that would know?""Yes, you can call back tomorrow and ask for the historical department." she said.I asked "At this same number?"She told me "yes".I was taught this in church. I'm shocked that I have to check with the historical department to see whether or not what I was taught in the LDS church was ever taught by the LDS church.Does the concern over political correctness of the church vs. teachings of the prophets and church leaders bother anybody else? I mean, not that I really care since I'm not a believing mormon anymore, but if I were, this would probably seriously bother me.Of course, getting referred to the Church Historical Dept. might have been a good thing, back in the day when the Archives were open to the "eyes of the world": as in "Come, See. We have nothing to hide."But, alas, in today's "climate", the former open-door policy is now tragically an ominous and dangerous closed-loop system.So, you will get the answer that they want you to hear, bat
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