Anti-Mormons

[ktfords]

Ktford,

Sounds like you just don't like Mormons....I guess Utah wasn't the best choice for you to live, huh? Try somewhere in the South, there are plenty of "so-called" Christians here with similar views. Haven't you already condemned the LDS beliefs, hmm? Why are you any different? Would your theology be able to withstand the same type of intense scrutiny as ours have? No way. It's doubtful, that you even know why you believe what you believe regarding your own faith. If you studied your own faith's history and really knew what it was you claimed to believe, you might be quite surprised. Uh, wait.... I don't think we know what faith that is. But, I find most people like you to be just believers, just "saved", born again and ready to point out how wrong we are. I am sure I could point out how wrong you are, but I will rise above it. No one will help the non-LDS huh?? Right, those mean ole, close minded, bigoted Mormons. Uh huh, that's been my experience alright.

I do appreciate the uplifting tone of your letter

Try reading my profile and it will tell you what I am, oh yeah, you were there. Nice attempt to belittle me in your email.

I like people. I like people who don't judge me and look down there nose at me because of my beliefs or they think they are better than me. As for what I believe, I know what I believe unlike vast majority of mormons here in utah. When you ask questions, number one answer, I have found is "I don't know".

Since, I have been here and at fairlds.org in the last week, I have received 8 emails from people within these organizations apologizing for their members conduct. Specifically the tone of letters. I have had a couple letters I have responded to that were very informative and lacked the "superior" attitude.

Don't tell me what I believe, you have never asked.

[jimuk]

I do appreciate the uplifting tone of your letter

Try reading my profile and it will tell you what I am, oh yeah, you were there. Nice attempt to belittle me in your email.

I like people. I like people who don't judge me and look down there nose at me because of my beliefs or they think they are better than me. As for what I believe, I know what I believe unlike vast majority of mormons here in utah. When you ask questions, number one answer, I have found is "I don't know".

Since, I have been here and at fairlds.org in the last week, I have received 8 emails from people within these organizations apologizing for their members conduct. Specifically the tone of letters. I have had a couple letters I have responded to that were very informative and lacked the "superior" attitude.

Don't tell me what I believe, you have never asked.

Please enlighten us to your beliefs, and what the reasons you think the lds family stopped their children playing alongside your children, i am just curious.

As already said, the were individual members, wow there is so much expected from mormons

Edited July 23, 2008 by jimuk

[ktfords]

My wife and I only ask that our son's friends have good standards.My eldest son's two best friends are a Catholic and a kid who doesn't go to church and never has....both awesome kids. My youngest son's two best buds are a Southern Baptist and a Methodist, again great kids. There are some LDS boys that I wouldn't want my kids around under any circumstance.

I don't live in Utah, but my best friend practiced law their for a few years and was an active member and he said he felt like a stranger there and that members could be very cliquish.

I agree..

[jimuk]

This is what we believe

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Do you see anything there within that makes us a bad people.

[bytor2112]

I do appreciate the uplifting tone of your letter

Try reading my profile and it will tell you what I am, oh yeah, you were there. Nice attempt to belittle me in your email.

I like people. I like people who don't judge me and look down there nose at me because of my beliefs or they think they are better than me. As for what I believe, I know what I believe unlike vast majority of mormons here in utah. When you ask questions, number one answer, I have found is "I don't know".

Since, I have been here and at fairlds.org in the last week, I have received 8 emails from people within these organizations apologizing for their members conduct. Specifically the tone of letters. I have had a couple letters I have responded to that were very informative and lacked the "superior" attitude.

Don't tell me what I believe, you have never asked.

Uh, what about your tone????? Maybe you should peruse your previous posts. And yes, I have been to your profile and it seems to me that it only says, "Christian". I could just as easily put that on my profile as well..... but alas I prefer to let people know right up front my beliefs. As you are fond of saying...if you believe it claim it!!

My tone is generally warm and friendly and occaisionaly sarcastic. I suspect the "Mormons" in Utah know what they believe, maybe you just don't like the answer. What do you believe? What denomination or creed do you align yourself with?

[Vort]

As for what I believe, I know what I believe unlike vast majority of mormons here in utah.

Are you saying that individuals in Utah are not aware of what they themselves believe? Seriously?

Amazing.

I've met some people I've considered, let's say, not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but I have never met anyone so stupid that he doesn't even know his own ideas. Your opinion of Mormons is obviously quite low.

Don't tell me what I believe, you have never asked.

Especially since we don't even know our own individual beliefs.

[rameumptom]

[Also think on this. if they were not lds they could have been members of any church, and would you be complaining about their behavior or would you go to them and ask the reason for their actions.

Yes, I would complain about other faiths/ non believers doing this.

I have lived in a lot of places, never, I said never, has another faith or a non believer done anything like this to me or my family before. Then, I had to explain the actions of those families and tell them (my kids) they did not do anything wrong.

I have attempted to ask why, usually no answer at the door, see me coming and run in the house, or drive by looking the other way, but, I did wave a guy over, his excuse, was a

"our kids aren't compatible", funny, they were best friends for weeks before this was said.

Reminder, I did nothing except answer this question, "are you lds". I said "no I'm not"..

Honestly, I thought this could never happen, until I moved here.

Perhaps you can improve the situation by meeting the local bishop and discussing the concerns you have with him. Perhaps if he were to address them to the congregation/ward, they would rethink their attitude, repent, and begin being good neighbors.

Edited July 23, 2008 by rameumptom

[bytor2112]

Ktfords,

The original thread regarding Anti-Mormons is an interesting one. I really have never understood why some people have such a zeal when it comes to attempting to disprove the LDS faith. I am guessing that living near the Vatican as a non-Catholic would be challenging and perhaps my impressions of Catholics would be greatly influenced one way or another as yours has obviously been influenced living in SLC.

Perhaps it is because it is so easy to misunderstand our doctrine if one has only been familiar with Evangelical views. (not saying that you are Evangelical) Or perhaps because there are a lot of web sites dedicated to enlightening or warning against the LDS churches teachings. I notice that some of these web sites also like to make sure that the unsuspecting truth seekers steers clear of Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholicism, Islam, Seventh Day Adventism and I even saw one about the Lutherans. Every one claims to have the truth, it isn't just Mormons. Truth is , we all have the truth, or at least a portion of it. I find other peoples views about life, religious or agnostic or atheist...fascinating. I always learn something. My gripe is the means by which the anti's operate...not with their opinion. I would never claim that you or any other self professed Christian believes in a "different" Jesus than I do.... yet we hear this all to often.Mrs James Dodson, wife of Focus on the Family founder, Dr. James Dobson asked that the Mormons not participate in the national day of prayer. Now, I like James Dobson and read a book he wrote called "Bringing up boys" ...excellent book. But this kind of stuff makes me scratch my head. I think Heavenly Father hears everyone's prayers... not just who Mrs. Dobson has determined is a Christian.

If my tone was a little harsh...please accept my sincere apology.... my sarcasm can be a bit biting.

[Elphaba]

If someone's an anti-mormon, they will generally talk about the murdering and adultery done by prophets, they often talk about sexism and racism in the church, they talk about specific events like the forgeries sold to GBH, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Emma Smith and Brigham Young's hatred of each other, changing of the Book of Mormon, DNA evidence against the BoM, different accounts of the 1st vision, the apparent ruthlessness of the likes of George Q. Cannon and Brigham Young, the mormon funded brothels, the church leaders being polygamous after they stopped polygamy, Brigham Young's 11-year old as an apostle, changing of the temple ceremony, George Q. Cannon's order to kill sexual sinners, Boyd K. Packer recommending to physically harm gay people, Jospeph Smith marrying 14 year-olds and sending men on missions to marry their wives, mormon women being depressed, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young prophesying about moonmen and the date of the 2nd coming, and getting it wrong, people having their calling of election made sure leaving the church, the Book of Abraham not being translated correctly, etc. and the church apparently hiding this from its members.

Nonsense.

The majority of these incidents did happen, and painting everyone who is interested in them with the same brush is shallow and prejudiced. Many people, like myself, have a passion for the Church’s history, and know more about these incidents than people, like you, who only want to end the discuss because you perceive them as anti-Mormons.

Based on your post, you are not qualified to determine who has an agenda or not, just because they bring up these historical truths.

They don't realize that one or two of these 'facts' actually aren't true, and all the ones which are true may have been taken out of context, are a misunderstanding, a mistake, or, to be frank are nothing to do with the religion and do not disprove the religion (although they are unethical and bad).

And the collective “you” do not seem to realize that many people do want to discuss these items, because they are true, but wanting to discuss them does not automatically make someone an “anti-Mormon.“

They don't seem to understand that if someone believes in a religion with all this 'darkness' in it so strongly there must be something more than appears on the cover.

And ‘they” who approach these historical facts, and conflate them with anti-Mormons, do not seem to understand you can never know for certain what a person’s purpose is. The only way you could determine this is to start a discussion with the person, without a pre-conceived agenda to prove someone is an “anti-Mormon,“ “an agnostic/atheist who doesn’t understand the Church," or other labels that try to dismiss what a person can offer. You don’t have to be LDS to be able to bring something to the discussion.

I admit I have seen people who, usually, have just discovered some of these items, and believe they are going to come onto a LDS website with this shocking information, and everyone on the website is going to be so upset they’re going to lose their testimony. These people are unfortunate, as their shock is real, but their information, though often true, is tired and boring. But this does make him an anti-Mormon. "He" is usally stunned by just learning a historical truth and is frantic about it.

Admittedly, many of these people leave the Church; however, many of them do not, and frankly, once they've learned more about the Church's true history, their testimony is stronger than ever.

I’ve also seen Latter-day Saints pretend to be investigators, and make comments about how impressed with the Church they are, and how it must be true because of “a”, “b” or “c.” These people obviously are not anti-Mormons; however, they are as dishonest as those you are so quick to judge.

This means nothing regarding whether the Church is true or not. Unfortunately, people like the collective “you” who claim these things never happened or are out of context, do the Church a disservice, as there are many Latter-day Saint historians who write about these incidents, and know they did happen.

The history of the Church is what it is, and insisting that if we discuss it means we’re anti-Mormon is rude. While you may have personally talked with people that you describe, you have not talked to people who do not have an agenda other than the historical truths. And there are more of us than many here seem to be willing to admit.

Elphaba

Edited July 24, 2008 by Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Please enlighten us to your beliefs, and what the reasons you think the lds family stopped their children playing alongside your children, i am just curious.

As already said, the were individual members, wow there is so much expected from mormons

I don't know how it is today, but fifteen years ago, in my neighborhood, it was a problem.

I had the exact same thing happen with my children, although with my son it was twenty years ago, and with my daughter it was fifteen.

A friend of mine, when moving to Utah from another state, even had her daughter picked up by the bus after school that she thought was taking her home. Instead, it took all of the children to primary, and she was terrified because she knew nothing about it, and thought she was lost. Yet, the members could not understand why her mother was so upset.

One time a sweet little boy was visiting my son. They were both about eight years old. The boy's parents were divorcing, and he was terribly traumatized.

There was a knock on my door and a man was standing there wanting to take a survey. It turned out he was a dictionary salesmen, but I didn't realize it at the time. I told him he could come in but that I was divorced, and he would only be able to talk to me.

In front of this little boy, he rudely insisted he could only talk to stable families, and a family without a father was not stable. All while these two little boys were standing there at the front door. My son's little friend started sobbing.

Another instance is where my neighbor babysat my daughter while my husband and I were at work. Her "best friend" was one of this family's children; yet, she often rejected my daughter, and it hurt her terribly.

For example, her friend would tell my daughter that we were evil because we drank coffee. Of course, my daughter was so hurt and confused, and wanted to fit in so badly, she repeated the little girl's comments to us telling us God did not want us to drink coffee. This went on until I was able to find a different babysitter.

But then, when the little girl had no one to play with, she called my daughter, who would get so excited. It broke my heart to watch this.

Who is to blame for these incidents? I am, of course. I should have done whatever it took to make sure she was somewhere emotionally safe, and I did not do that.

But for those of you who don't believe this really happens, ask yourself just how you would know about it if it was? Your child is not likely to tell you at the dinner table, "Oh, I decided to ostracize Annie today."

Elphaba

Edited July 24, 2008 by Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Thanks.... I get a little red sometimes. When I read stuff like that it makes me crazy. I will never forget driving to Pascagoula, Mississippi after Katrina and working like a dog to remove carpet and drywall and cut fallen trees or whatever else was needed with thousands of other Saints. I am certain that we did not identify who were LDS and who were not. In Mississippi, it wasn't very many. Our faith is about serving others, we are always looking for service projects and especially look for ways to help non-members.

This didn't happen until a month or so after the major clean-up, but when the media caught the story of the Church's contributions to the people affected by Katrina, especially by Church volunteers, it was a fairly big story,

Perhaps I am wrong on when the news story broke, but I don't think it was emphasized more in Utah than elsewhre in the country. I believe the story was genuinely covered nationwide because the Church's service was so extensive it truly made a big difference.

Elphaba

[jimuk]

Elphaba, Why would i/we not beleive you, i do not know you, if you say that happened then i am sorry, and the majority of the members will feel the same, but i must stress again, these are individual persons and it is not what i would myself call very christian.

onto anti, you say it all i your last paragraph (of earlier post) in nine words, "The history of the Church is what it is"

Thats it, it is history, what good does it do to keep talking about these things. all it does is cause bad feeling and serves no good purpose at all, these guys have already made up their minds and are looking for a fight.

I do not go onto other so called christian boards and go on about their history, the burning and torturing of people by their churches, and other bad things, in the name of our father in heaven.

but i know i could if i so wished, how long do you think i would last lol.

I do not believe these bad things which you chose to remind us of would have been done in heavenly fathers name, but i do believe that those that did them will be answerable for what they did to our heavenly father.

The people who want to come here to keep bringing them up already know about them, they have read all about them, They have already made their minds up as to whether they are true or not, to keep reminding us of them makes some of us see red, (as someone put it earlier lol)

[jimuk]

This didn't happen until a month or so after the major clean-up, but when the media caught the story of the Church's contributions to the people affected by Katrina, especially by Church volunteers, it was a fairly big story,

Perhaps I am wrong on when the news story broke, but I don't think it was emphasized more in Utah than elsewhre in the country. I believe the story was genuinely covered nationwide because the Church's service was so extensive it truly made a big difference.

Elphaba

That news story never broke here in The uk God bless the saints in the usa is all i can say about that.

[Palerider]

This didn't happen until a month or so after the major clean-up, but when the media caught the story of the Church's contributions to the people affected by Katrina, especially by Church volunteers, it was a fairly big story,

Perhaps I am wrong on when the news story broke, but I don't think it was emphasized more in Utah than elsewhre in the country. I believe the story was genuinely covered nationwide because the Church's service was so extensive it truly made a big difference.

Elphaba

here in Missouri you wil only get that story from the Church News or go to a Utah newspaper web site.....

[Elphaba]

Another item I've noticed about "Anti" agendas is that they are very closed group. A "mormon" in good standing has very little chance of postin on their forums. In fact a forum I ran across yesterday stated in its credo, "If you are an active member please do not try to post here, we don't want to hear it..." (paraphrase)

So what? It is the forum's owner who decides what will and won't be discussed on the forum.

I know of a forum dedicated to all things LDS that allows everyone to join in on the conversation. It also is not moderated, except in a way that ensures conversations with no swearing, etc., to conversations with no moderating whatsoever. But many call this board "anti-Mormon" when it is not. What it does do is allow conversations from all people, and does not always agree with Latter-day Saints.

Obviously there are anti-Mormon boards. I suspect the one you are referring to is rabidly anti-Mormon. But its stated purpose is completely different from other boards, as is the owner's right. I cannot tolerate that board, and haven't been there for years.

I know of another LDS board that is insistent there be no discord on threads, and that anti-LDS discussions will not be tolerated. And it is the board owner's right to demand such.

Finally, I have had more than a few people on this board intimate I have no business being here as I am an ex-member and an atheist. Yet the rules make it clear I am welcome here. Some continue to question why I am here. Frankly, I owe no one an explanation, because, as I said, the board rules say I am welcome.

So my point is, what you see as exclusionary rules, are, indeed exclusionary. As is the board owner's right. And there are always going to be boards that do not welcome Latter-day Saints, and other boards that do not welcome anyone but Latter-day Saints.

However, they apparently feel more than welcome to come here and other LDS sites and post their hate, criticize spelling, and whatever else they can manage to make sport of. Which is unfortunate because many of them spend less time "discussing" hcurch doctrine andmore time defaming individuals who are private persons, i.e. "My neighbor is LDS and...", "While on my mission my companion..."

It really is a shame.

Jon

Do you seriously think there are LDS board that do not do the same?

I am not advocating for one board over another; in fact, I am quite happy at this board. But it is a lack of perspective to think of this with a black and white perspective. There are countless sites devoted to LDS issues, and devoted to anti-LDS issues. Neither is more acceptable than the other, given the owner's designated rules.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

here in Missouri you wil only get that story from the Church News or go to a Utah newspaper web site.....

Hey Pale,

So do you think it was only emphasized in Utah? My impression was different, and if it was wrong, that makes me sad.

Elphie

[Palerider]

Hey Pale,

So do you think it was only emphasized in Utah? My impression was different, and if it was wrong, that makes me sad.

Elphie

we never hear about this sort of thing back here.....we see it in the church news or if we have a relative in utah they tell us. If the Catholic Church did it....its all over the news ....this is not a negative comment against the Catholic Church....

[Traveler]

Please enlighten us to your beliefs, and what the reasons you think the lds family stopped their children playing alongside your children, i am just curious.

As already said, the were individual members, wow there is so much expected from mormons

Interesting question. My wife and I were once confronted by a rather angry neighbor that wanted to know why my wife and I would not let our children play with theirs and why we had started a whisper campaign to keep other LDS children in the neighborhood from playing with their children.

We invited them into our home and explained that on Sunday (the day they came) that we observe the Sabbath and spend time with our children. It was not that they could not play with other children but that this was a time for our family. I told them that I encourage other families to do the same and that this was not secret or whisper campaign. I also encouraged them to spend Sunday as a special time with their children.

I have no idea how this got twisted but I have no doubt but that such mistakes are not uncommon. I am just grateful that my neighbor decided to get to the bottom of the problem.

The Traveler

[Guest ceeboo]

we never hear about this sort of thing back here.....we see it in the church news or if we have a relative in utah they tell us. If the Catholic Church did it....its all over the news ....this is not a negative comment against the Catholic Church....

Hi Palerider,

I am Catholic ( Michigan ) First time I have heard of this effort was ummmmm about 45 minutes ago. I would also completly agree that if it were us Catholics you betcha there would CNN, MSNBC, FOX, and the rest reporting. Not sure what that really means though??

At any rate, thought I would chime in from Michigan

God bless,

Carl

[VisionOfLehi]

here in Missouri you wil only get that story from the Church News or go to a Utah newspaper web site.....

In Iowa the only reason I knew the Church was involved was because well after it happened I decided to look it up and see how much we helped out...

[HoosierGuy]

For those who are disgusted with the LDS Church, I believe it is often a matter of them not being of LDS material, just as I am not Baptist material. The Spirit guides us in slightly different paths, due to who we are and what we wish to become.

What does "LDS material" consist of? I'm not sure what kind of material I'm made up of. But I know this - I want to enter the Celestial Kingdom and be Exalted! Actually, I do know what kind of material I'm made up - I'm Heavenly Fathers son and I have the potential to be just like him. When I pray at night I usually tell Father that I love Him and want to be like Him, in a respectful way.

[Maurice]

Please do not take this the wrong way. I am not a Mormon but you must remember that many of what you call anti Mormons have read the words in Joseph Smith -History 18 -20 and equally feel hurt.

Maurice

[tsubotsubo]

Nonsense.

The majority of these incidents did happen, and painting everyone who is interested in them with the same brush is shallow and prejudiced. Many people, like myself, have a passion for the Church’s history, and know more about these incidents than people, like you, who only want to end the discuss because you perceive them as anti-Mormons.

Based on your post, you are not qualified to determine who has an agenda or not, just because they bring up these historical truths.

And the collective “you” do not seem to realize that many people do want to discuss these items, because they are true, but wanting to discuss them does not automatically make someone an “anti-Mormon.“

And ‘they” who approach these historical facts, and conflate them with anti-Mormons, do not seem to understand you can never know for certain what a person’s purpose is. The only way you could determine this is to start a discussion with the person, without a pre-conceived agenda to prove someone is an “anti-Mormon,“ “an agnostic/atheist who doesn’t understand the Church," or other labels that try to dismiss what a person can offer. You don’t have to be LDS to be able to bring something to the discussion.

I admit I have seen people who, usually, have just discovered some of these items, and believe they are going to come onto a LDS website with this shocking information, and everyone on the website is going to be so upset they’re going to lose their testimony. These people are unfortunate, as their shock is real, but their information, though often true, is tired and boring. But this does make him an anti-Mormon. "He" is usally stunned by just learning a historical truth and is frantic about it.

Admittedly, many of these people leave the Church; however, many of them do not, and frankly, once they've learned more about the Church's true history, their testimony is stronger than ever.

I’ve also seen Latter-day Saints pretend to be investigators, and make comments about how impressed with the Church they are, and how it must be true because of “a”, “b” or “c.” These people obviously are not anti-Mormons; however, they are as dishonest as those you are so quick to judge.

This means nothing regarding whether the Church is true or not. Unfortunately, people like the collective “you” who claim these things never happened or are out of context, do the Church a disservice, as there are many Latter-day Saint historians who write about these incidents, and know they did happen.

The history of the Church is what it is, and insisting that if we discuss it means we’re anti-Mormon is rude. While you may have personally talked with people that you describe, you have not talked to people who do not have an agenda other than the historical truths. And there are more of us than many here seem to be willing to admit.

Elphaba

Okay, sorry if my post has upset you, but I've had many, what I consider to be 'anti-mormons' question me, in real life, as to why I'm a mormon. When this all first started happening to me, I believed they were sincere, and interested in my religion, but it just spun out of control, and now, today, they clearly have found a list of facts that 'disprove' my religion, and expect me respond everytime, and there's just so much 'darkness' in my religion that they've gone on from years, and repeated themselves very little. Now I'm considered an absolute deluded idiot for being part of a religion that seems to discriminate against everyone except white, straight men. These people clearly are 'against mormonism (or maybe against me), but they're definately 'anti'.

It never really occured to me that people can discuss these things with mormons and actually be genuinely interested rather than make a fool of them. It's just that, for me, everytime I respond to their evidence against mormonism, they just say that my replies are immature, or vague, or contradict myself, and it makes me very upset, as I have no one to help me. Now, I've just gotten to a point where I research everything in advance, using sites like FAIR and exmormon.org to be prepared (and it does quite annoy them when I am for some reason).

And I know that most of what I've posted is true. I've had a LOT of proof for each of the, seemingly hundreds of facts, thrown in my face, but some of them actually are not true. For example, Joseph Smith did not prophesy that men live on the moon. I haven't found a first-hand account of him saying it yet, and, if the church is true, he wouldn't have prophesied incorrectly, and if the church isn't true, he wouldn't be able to prophesy at all. A more reasonable accusation to make would be 'Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said men live on the moon'.

Anyways, sorry that I clearly upset you, and sorry in advance if my attempt at justifying myself has upset you further.

[bytor2112]

Please do not take this the wrong way. I am not a Mormon but you must remember that many of what you call anti Mormons have read the words in Joseph Smith -History 18 -20 and equally feel hurt.

Maurice

Maurice,

I don't feel hurt by "anti's" and I doubt the people we have been talking about are hurt by the JS history. Their web sites and books don'y say " Joseph Smith has hurt my feelings, so I am going to twist the truth and mislead anyway I can to disprove him." Many churches have histories and beliefs that are "hurtful" to someone. The issue of "gay marriage" is hurtful to gays, the issue of Southern Baptists and slavery could be hurtful to some, the history of the Catholics is hurtful to many others and on and on.....

[Maurice]

Thank you for your reply - I do not deserve such a reply - it has not upset me in the way you think - What has upset me is the nature of your reply. I was only making a comment- to explain both sides. You do not seem to understand that the quote I gave has upset many non-Mormons. I am not writing to engage in any arguement. People can be interested and and have a desire to understand without being anti. I am sorry if you do not feel I am genuine. If I may mention it - I am 67 years of age and spent many years teaching and your letter concerns me because you appear to be uptight -and unwilling to enter into any othe view - I do not know how you can write that your post has upset me.

I only sent a short comment.

Maurice.