Anyone here a psychopath?

[Fiannan]

There are four (4) different subtypes of psychopaths. The oldest distinction was made by Cleckley back in 1941 between primary and secondary.

PRIMARY PSYCHOPATHS do not respond to punishment, apprehension, stress, or disapproval. They seem to be able to inhibit their antisocial impulses most of the time, not because of conscience, but because it suits their purpose at the time. Words do not seem to have the same meaning for them as they do for us. In fact, it's unclear if they even grasp the meaning of their own words, a condition that Cleckley called "semantic aphasia." They don't follow any life plan, and it seems as if they are incapable of experiencing any genuine emotion.

SECONDARY PSYCHOPATHS are risk-takers, but are also more likely to be stress-reactive, worriers, and guilt-prone. They expose themselves to more stress than the average person, but they are as vulnerable to stress as the average person. (This suggests that they are not "fully psychopathic." This may be due to distinctive genetic variations.)

They are daring, adventurous, unconventional people who began playing by their own rules early in life. They are strongly driven by a desire to escape or avoid pain, but are unable to resist temptation. As their anxiety increases toward some forbidden object, so does their attraction to it. They live their lives by the lure of temptation. Both primary and secondary psychopaths can be subdivided into:

DISTEMPERED PSYCHOPATHS are the kind that seem to fly into a rage or frenzy more easily and more often than other subtypes. Their frenzy will resemble an epileptic fit. They are also usually men with incredibly strong sex drives, capable of astonishing feats of sexual energy, and seemingly obsessed by sexual urges during a large part of their waking lives. Powerful cravings also seem to characterize them, as in drug addiction, kleptomania, pedophilia, any illicit or illegal indulgence. They like the endorphin "high" or "rush" off of excitement and risk-taking. The serial-rapist-murderer known as the Boston Strangler was such a psychopath.

CHARISMATIC PSYCHOPATHS are charming, attractive liars. They are usually gifted at some talent or another, and they use it to their advantage in manipulating others. They are usually fast-talkers, and possess an almost demonic ability to persuade others out of everything they own, even their lives. Leaders of religious sects or cults, for example, might be psychopaths if they lead their followers to their deaths. This subtype often comes to believe in their own fictions. They are irresistible.

What is a Psychopath?

Statistically, about 2-3 percent of men and 1% of women are psychopathic so most people would know such a person, be related to a psychopath or maybe one or two people on the forum here are psychopaths. I am just curious as to what people believe makes these individuals. I personally believe it may be a form of defense mechanism in which highly caring people (core personality from birth) find it necessary to shut off feelings to avoid emotional pain.

Any thoughts?

[RachelleDrew]

Does anybody know what the difference is between a sociopath and a psychopath? Or is there one? Nobody ever explained that to me.

I don't know if I know any psychopaths, but I had a friend in a counseling outreach group who was actually documented by several psychologists to be a sociopath. This is very rare in females.

I never understood much about sociopaths, but I know this much; she was a very dangerous person and there simply wasn't much that could be done to help her. To be honest i'm not even sure why I tried to befriend her, she didn't think of me as a friend although she certainly pretended to for manipulation purposes. I thought us bipolar kids were master manipulators, boy was I wrong. This girl took the prize.

What's scary was her demeanor, she was very violent and cruel but never showed rage or anger. I'm certain that if she ever murdered someone she would just be chill the entire time.

When she did things that were wrong, she would lie about it for ages even when the evidence was right in front of her. When she finally would confess to her wrongdoings, she was just so cavalier about it that it was chilling.

From what I understand, she had a very normal childhood with little incident of stress. No divorce, abuse, drugs, money problems. I'm not sure what started all of it. When her parents came to group they said that she had always been odd as a child, and it just seemed to progress from there. They knew there was a problem when she burned down her grandfather's barn at the age of 11 and didn't even care.

[WANDERER]

psychopath ( ) n. A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy.

I haven't met one...I think I would find it very difficult to actually believe anyone I knew was like that...even if they were. It's not in my headspace...I'd be making excuses till the cows came home that really they must be good people somewhere deep, perhaps very deep down, but still good or...failing that.... can find that good back somehow someday.

Currently I'm on day 5...someone backed into my car...some people saw them do it and came and told me. The person denied doing it until they were shown the paint on the bumper bar..and then they didn't say anything. The person who backed into my car hasn't told me yet...but...I hope they will, yes, even 5 days later,..and I guess I won't confront them...because it's barely a scrape and I'd tell them anyway that it was fine and okay...but I'm sure they're a good person. Perhaps they really think they didn't hit it.

I don't comprehend sociopathic/phsychopathic behaviour. Why would you do that? My sister says I live in a dreamworld LOL. It's not that I don't think people are capable of doing stuff...I just tend to believe the very best for longer I guess.

Edited August 6, 2008 by WANDERER

[hordak]

I have no empathy.Perhaps i should get my genes mapped?

[MarginOfError]

Wow, creepy, I found traits of myself in all of those definitions. But I think I fell mostly into the charismatic box. Maybe I should go see someone and make sure I'm not on the verge of snapping.

If I did snap, I'm sure my first victim would probably be Gingy.

[Fiannan]

One wonders, considering the characteristics of both the secondary and the charismatic psychopath then perhaps many of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of American kids misdiagnosed with ADD are really better fit into these categories. Would explain misbehavior coupled with intelligence and how psychoactive drugs do reduce some of the target behaviors. Problem is, it doesn't allow the person, or others associated with that person, to work out these issues and either compensate or learn to live with being different.

It also adds an ironic twist to things -- the more a specific issue (sin?) is condemned the more these people will be drawn to it. It can also develop into a cat and mouse game.

One has to keep in mind that few here probably have run ins with primary and distempered psychopaths unless you are a teacher, in law enforcement or social work. However, it's very likely you have had many run-ins with secondary charismatic psychopaths. The emergency room doctor who is obscessed with his low death rate statistics, the highly popular college professor who defied conventional attitudes and behaviors, was brilliant and also popular with the opposite sex, or the lawyer who could get Bin Ladin off on a technicality. Remember, only a tiny percentage of psychopaths are violent murderers -- there are millions you'd never expect.

[WANDERER]

Interesting question. I once got into a values debate with an old friend. Anyway, it must have finally twigged that there was a difference, cause she said, "You don't really believe all that do you?" For me it was a heart felt thing and for her it was just an interesting academic conversation looking at proofs and evidences. Is that lying per se? Or just a misunderstanding of point of view? Certainly I had a misrepresented view of her and what was important to her and I just assumed a baseline of values in common. I didn't expect that...I really didn't know her at all LOL. But charismatic sociopath certainly seems a wee bit harsh.

[Fiannan]

Perhaps but maybe because in our minds the term "psychopath" conjures up images from movies like Sweeney Todd or Natural Born Killers.

Now here is something somewhat disturbing -- has anyone here ever heard of the Japanese experimentation facility called "Unit 731"? This was staffed with leading Japanese doctors who after the war (the US government made sweat deals with them for research data) lead pretty distinquished lives. However, during the war these guys did human experiments that were unequal in cruelty. You can google the information up but let's just say vivisections on live prisoners of war and Chinese civilians were just a start.

It is doubtful that the Japanese were able to "get lucky" in finding psychopathic reserachers to man the operation. These "normal" researchers must have been able to shut off the emotinal mechanisms possessed by most humans. So it must not be entirely a biological condition that causes people to be psychopathic.

[Fiannan]

Perhaps these eight qualify for the primary or distempered psychopathic definition.

wcco.com - Father Beaten Protecting Daughter At Valleyfair

[pushka]

I think I may have known a possible psychopath. My ex-boyfriend's daughter. She was 16 when I met him, she'd already beaten her mother so badly that she was now deaf in one ear, (the mother and father are now separated/possibly divorced), she deliberately harmed her older and younger brothers, some only in small ways, others not so small, she took care of the family gerbils by moving them into a cage with the family pet rats who then killed them, and recently had to be reported to both social services and the RSPCA because she and her boyfriend had tortured and injured their pet kitten so badly...broken pelvis, blinded in one eye, ear ripped off, etc. that the vet had to put the poor creature to sleep..in fact when the vet asked the couple to bring the kitten back to be put to sleep they refused to do so which is when the social services and rspca got involved...Social Services were involved because they have a baby and they were afraid of the tendency for abusers of animals to also abusse (physically) children...unfortunately no charges could be brought against them as they each blamed the other for the cruelty...so maybe that's 2 psychopaths I've met!

[DanielNicolai]

Does anybody know what the difference is between a sociopath and a psychopath? Or is there one? Nobody ever explained that to me.

From what I understand there isnt' one, but Psychopath sounded too close to Psycho, so they renamed it to Sociopath because it's technically a sociological disorder. This may be the one and only PC thing I've ever heard that I actually liked.

I'm not a Sociopath, I'm fine being alone and all that, but I also like having friends over, would love to hang out with people randomly too.

[Dr T]

"sociopath" and "psychopath" mean the same thing. The new phrase is actually Antisocial Personality Disorder

[FunkyTown]

That is true, Fent. Sociopathic-like people who have empathy are often people with Histrionic Personality Disorder.

[Dr T]

No histrionic personality d/o is when the person seeks excessive attention for self.

[FunkyTown]

Yep. T's totally right. However, many of the 'overt' symptoms are similar - Being charismatic, manipulative, etc.

Here's an example of what it's like.

Histrionic Personality Disorder

[OtterPop]

I have met and worked with a lot of antisocials. I'm a social worker, and I've worked at a residential treatment center for substance abuse (not a fancy one, one where most people were either in treatment or in jail), and at the county jail.

I do not agree that a large number of ADD/ADHD kids are better explained as budding antisocials. I say "budding," because antisocial personality disorder can't be diagnosed until age 18. Kids would be diagnosed as having oppositional defiant disorder.

As far as how someone becomes an antisocial, I would say that the VAST majority of them were abused as children. Or perhaps I should say "tortured." (One example is someone being tied to a tree by his father and beaten with barbed wire.) I'm not saying that everyone who is severely abused becomes antisocial, nor am I using the abuse history as an excuse. Everyone I've talked to who has worked with jail populations -- even the most conservative, hard-line, law-and-order officers at the jail -- would acknowledge that the inmates who fit this profile had been abused as children.

I know there has been at least one study that showed that antisocial traits run in families, and that children more closely resembled their biological parents than their adoptive parents if they had been adopted. (Don't ask me to cite the study; I read it many years ago. Feel free to take it or leave it.)

Several studies show that ordinary people -- not antisocials -- will torture others given the "right" circumstances. Philip Zimbardo, who designed and conducted the Stanford Prison Experiment, wrote a fascinating book called The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil. If you're interested in this subject, it's an essential read.

[Fiannan]

I know there has been at least one study that showed that antisocial traits run in families, and that children more closely resembled their biological parents than their adoptive parents if they had been adopted. (Don't ask me to cite the study; I read it many years ago. Feel free to take it or leave it.)

Several studies show that ordinary people -- not antisocials -- will torture others given the "right" circumstances. Philip Zimbardo, who designed and conducted the Stanford Prison Experiment, wrote a fascinating book called The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil. If you're interested in this subject, it's an essential read.

From my research just about every personality trait in adoptive children more closely resembles the natural parents rather than the adoptive parent. I guess if spiritual gifts can run in families so can personality traits that might, on the surface, seem negative.

Stanley Millgram's experiments on conformity and abuse should be required study for all students -- more people have died in the name of conformity than in the name of individuality. Humans have a herd instinct and when bad people assume leadership or even prominant status as trend setters many of not most people will seek to conform. The horrific examples could include race riots, mobs (like the ones who murdered Joseph Smith) and the human experiment facility called "Unit 731" operated by the Japanese. Sad thing is though that non-conformity requires an active response and conformity is passive (easier).

In this way society can greatly benefit from secondary psychopathics since their unconvention behaviors can revolutionize a situation. Combined with charismatic traits and you can have great leaders -- if they can control their imbulses. In all likelihood many of the people admired in history, especially those with a "cult of personality" were psychopaths of this variety. Maybe this is why traits such as histeronic personality disorder overlap so easily.

Not sure I'd say that most of these psychopaths were abused as kids (in the conventional sense) -- but perhaps abuse could trigger problems associated with primary psychopaths.

[OtterPop]

I agree.

Although it's right that work like Milgram's and Zimbardo's can't be done anymore for ethical reasons, I'm glad we have their studies. They've made me think about the conformity you write about -- and remind me to remember that, without awareness, I'm most likely no different than the ordinary people who participated in those studies.

[Listener]

A further question would be, why is psychopathic behaviour possible? Are we not all created with a conscience? If not, is someone without a conscience then responsible?

The use of the term "psychopath" is historical. In contemporary psychiatry, it would be broken down into narcissistic personality, histrionic personality, antisocial personality, and borderline personality. All of these are worth a Google, if you are curious.

There is a robust school of thought which ties these to severe childhood abuse in various forms, but there are as many exceptions to this as there are examples.

How to co-exist with such people is probably the real issue. If you are married to someone like this, or have a child like this, or a neighbour, then there must be methods to avoid becoming collateral damage.

And all of us can work at recognising areas of our own lives where these traits may be a problem.

Isn't being human interesting.

[Elphaba]

From my research just about every personality trait in adoptive children more closely resembles the natural parents rather than the adoptive parent. I guess if spiritual gifts can run in families so can personality traits that might, on the surface, seem negative.

>snip<

Not sure I'd say that most of these psychopaths were abused as kids (in the conventional sense) -- but perhaps abuse could trigger problems associated with primary psychopaths.

Well, I guess we can feel lucky you didn't mention Freud.

Elphaba

[Fiannan]

The use of the term "psychopath" is historical. In contemporary psychiatry, it would be broken down into narcissistic personality, histrionic personality, antisocial personality, and borderline personality. All of these are worth a Google, if you are curious.

There is a robust school of thought which ties these to severe childhood abuse in various forms, but there are as many exceptions to this as there are examples.

How to co-exist with such people is probably the real issue.

There is a great deal of overlap and controversies in reference to diagnosis of personality disorders as well as other conditions. There are those who believe that many people diagnosed with borderline personality disorder are actually suffering from asperger's syndrome. Temper flare ups are due to not being able to interpret outside signals and can create a great deal of emotional turmoil in which the individual tries to compensate through the traits associated with borderline.

Histeronic behaviors are closely related to narcissisistic traits and also tie in with the charismic secondary psychopath. Actors, actresses, models and politicians may all be way more likely to have these triats than the average person.

Distempered primary psychopaths are the ones that are generally not successful in life and can wind up in prison for violent behaviors. These are probably the ones who suffered a great deal as children -- however, some speculate that primary secondary psychopaths might suffer from too much pampering as children.

Co-existing? Well, that's a hard one. Since porn is such a popular subject on this forum I'd say that of you are married to a secondary charismatic psychopath the more you talk about the evils of porn the more they will try to access it -- both for the porn thrill as well as the taboo associated with it. Ironic, huh? As for the distempered primary psychopath then God have mercy upon you if they are your boss or your spouse. They will follow rules if doing so helps them avoid punishment -- and the punishment has to be something they can't tolerate.

[WANDERER]

There's a difference between being amoral and immoral.

I finally caught up with the lady who backed her car into mine and wasn't going to own up to it.

Her 'apology" kind of made it sound like it was my fault it happened LOL.

Three pennies dropped:

The person who told me about it said they were a really bad driver and did this all of the time.

I pointed out something in the carpark and they stared for way longer than they should have.

The level of anger was high and out of proportion.

I realised that perhaps they were fibbing in the vision test during their drivers licence. I don't know that this is the problem..but there are some pretty good indicators.

Yes, it would take a certain level of amorality to drive around and endanger others...but is this because people don't understand the level of their problem (visual problems are like that) or have the ability to see a positive outcome from a visit to an optometrist and skills to do so?

With ADHD they are not picking up visual and social cues...to the point that they sometimes need assistance with recognising facial expressions at a young age..we often do 'is this person sad or happy?' lessons. The 'not focussing' issue causes the problem..rather than an incapacity to feel or have empathy. Yes there is often a high intelligence level that goes with ADHD (not always..it's a very wide spectrum to generalise about and children are often mis-diagnosed or have multi-layered problems)...but ...if they're producing average results and those distractions are removed...they often do quite well. They have to work so hard to concentrate and focus in order to produce those average results...so there's a high level of skilling going on there in order to cope with everyday life.

As an interesting aside...the closest I have met to a psychopath was a very troubled family friend that I grew up with. He used to kill baby animals as a small child in front of me when I was two and he was legendary at the many schools he attended. I hope not...in regards to people...but he didn't have the ability to draw lines to his behaviour and I wonder. He often complained of headaches. As a teen he heard voices and ended up voluntarily in hospital...schizophrenia they said. A few years later he was put into a long term psychiatric ward. Apparently part of the bone in his skull was missing...I'm sorry I don't know the medical words for it as his mother comes from a non-english speaking background. All those years and no one thought to give him a catscan? So very sad.

I think there are usually underlying biological factors...with somewhat of a choice factor. I'm more bothered by the way in which people respond to those that have disorders... when they see it as 'permission' to behave in certain ways towards them that are disturbingly similar.

[OtterPop]

I'm listening to a radio podcast of a discussion with the authors of the new book on the Moutain Meadows Massacre. Interesting to think about in light of this thread.

No one seriously questions that it was believing Mormons who carried out the massacre. This was certainly an evil act -- but I doubt that many (if any) of these men were evil people.

[ruthiechan]

As an interesting aside...the closest I have met to a psychopath was a very troubled family friend that I grew up with. He used to kill baby animals as a small child in front of me when I was two and he was legendary at the many schools he attended. I hope not...in regards to people...but he didn't have the ability to draw lines to his behaviour and I wonder. He often complained of headaches. As a teen he heard voices and ended up voluntarily in hospital...schizophrenia they said. A few years later he was put into a long term psychiatric ward. Apparently part of the bone in his skull was missing...I'm sorry I don't know the medical words for it as his mother comes from a non-english speaking background. All those years and no one thought to give him a catscan? So very sad.

Because more often than not behavior is still not seen as a symptom to a physical problem. He would've had to have seizures in order for the doctors to even think of ordering a cat scan.

[rayhale]

Go to: Characteristics of Psychopath (Sociopath, Anti-social Personality Disorder)