Need for Mormon Confessional?

[bytor2112]

The original post was about a Catholic-style confession in the LDS church. The Catholics can confess any way they choose to, but the Lord has revealed to our modern-day prophets the proper way to confess. Of course the Catholics would disagree with me. If they agreed with our methods they'd probably be members of our church. I'm not discounting anything Catholics believe. They can choose to believe how they want, and I would never take away that right. Our church, however, is not the Catholic church.

I was responding to your statement regarding Catholics not feeling remorse and having their sins majically forgiven with no accountability. This just simply isn't true. They feel the same heavy weight of sin that we do and through their ecclesiastical leadership seek to set things right with the Lord. I believe as you do that ultimately they must pass through the same strait and narrow gate that I have passed through for salvation. But, I believe that the Lord honors the sincerely repentant regardless of their denominational beliefs.

[Guest ceeboo]

You ever have those moments in your day when you realize that you just stepped in poop?????

Well I am afraid I have here. Ceeboo, I just reread your post and saw the comma in between my name and the aka in quotes. Now I understand. And I apologize for getting completely bent out of shape.

My humblest apologies ..... as I clean the lenses on my glasses!

NOOOOO problem at all,

I am SOOOO happy that this is cleared up.

Going forward I will reserve my humor attempts to the " questions only " game.:)

Peace,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

NOOOOO problem at all,

I am SOOOO happy that this is cleared up.

Going forward I will reserve my humor attempts to the " questions only " game.:)

Peace,

Carl

OH RELIEF! We are still friends. Perhaps I need to be the next one flogged on the questions thread, eh????

Boy. My online name has new meaning, I am sure!!! LOL!

[Guest ceeboo]

In your mind, maybe. But that's the beauty of an opinion. I can express a belief whether or not anyone else agrees.

Hi again thejason,

Maybe we should start over??

Myself and a few members on this forum are taking a road trip to the Vatican, IF YOU WOULD LIKE, there is room for one more in the van. What do you think??

Peace,

Carl

[HiJolly]

It's sad that I have a firm belief in something?

Honestly, thejason, I'm not sure about your comments; They're so over-the-top it just seems they must be sarcasm. Even now, I'm sorry to say that I can't tell if you are serious or not.

My point was that for someone to say their opinions are "unchangeable" is really, really, sad. I am constantly evaluating my opinions, and many times I find I must change my opinions, as new information becomes available to me.

I'm not sure that makes any sense. I can only believe a prophet's words if I'm the prophet myself?

Right. Or, rather "a prophet", not "the prophet". That's the doctrine of the Church. Our prophets declare the truth, and fear that they will be blindly accepted. They hope members will receive their own witness, that the prophet's words are true (or false, as the case may be).

This means that each member should be prophets, just as Joseph Smith wanted.

HiJolly

[Vort]

How fortunate we are in knowing that "saying prayers of contrition and performing good deeds" are not sufficient "as a way of repenting and getting right with God."

Are you sure we know that?

Perhaps I phrased this badly; my apologies. When I wrote "we", I was not referring to you and me. I was referring to myself and others who know, understand, and accept the LDS teachings on this topic. What you believe about this, I do not know.

Prima Facie, eh? I would think that desiring the confessional process in the first place was evidence of penitence.

Yes, you might, just as you might think that a man contacting his exwife who left him for abusive behavior is evincing a desire to clean up his act. But if he then refuses to acknowledge his deeds or do what his ex feels is necessary to restore the trust, then one might take that as obvious evidence that he has no desire to clean up his act, but merely to resume the relationship on roughly the same grounds as before.

If someone wants to set his relationship with God aright and he begins the process by talking with servants in whose hands God has placed his authority, then balks and refuses to abide by the conditions set by those servants, then this is, as I wrote before, prima facie evidence that they are not truly penitent.

(Btw, prima facie does not mean indisputable.)

Edited August 12, 2008 by Vort
typo

[thejason]

Honestly, thejason, I'm not sure about your comments; They're so over-the-top it just seems they must be sarcasm. Even now, I'm sorry to say that I can't tell if you are serious or not.

Why are they over the top? Just because they differ from yours? I have not ridiculed anyone for their opinion. I expect the same treatment. I couldn't care less if you agree with me, but I would appreciate some respect in sharing my opinions.

My point was that for someone to say their opinions are "unchangeable" is really, really, sad.

I'm sorry you find it sad that I feel so strongly about something that, to me, is pretty much fact. I thought that was the whole purpose of having a testimony: to know for a surety of the truth.

[bytor2112]

Why are they over the top? Just because they differ from yours? I have not ridiculed anyone for their opinion. I expect the same treatment. I couldn't care less if you agree with me, but I would appreciate some respect in sharing my opinions.

I'm sorry you find it sad that I feel so strongly about something that, to me, is pretty much fact. I thought that was the whole purpose of having a testimony: to know for a surety of the truth.

I think he is referring to your firm and unshakable and IMO erroneous opinion of catholic confession, not your testimony of the LDS repentance process.

[thejason]

Still, it's my opinion and is no less valid than yours. Don't criticize me if you aren't prepared for it in return.

[Vort]

Still, it's my opinion and is no less valid than yours.

I have never quite understood this line of reasoning. Do you believe all opinions to be of the same validity? If so, then if it is my opinion that you do not exist, is that equally valid with your opinion that you do? If it is my opinion that the moon is made of corned beef, is that equally valid with any other opinion? If it is my opinion that God is a sea cucumber, is that likewise equally valid with all other opinions?

[thejason]

My point is that everyone is entitled to post here freely, within the framework of the site rules. I have not criticized anyone for their opinion. I would hope I'd be given the same treatment, yet some seem to think it's ok to criticize me because my opinions are "over the top" or simply don't jive with theirs.

[Vort]

My point is that everyone is entitled to post here freely, within the framework of the site rules. I have not criticized anyone for their opinion. I would hope I'd be given the same treatment, yet some seem to think it's ok to criticize me because my opinions are "over the top" or simply don't jive with theirs.

I noticed no criticism by bytor2112, except to say that he thought your opinion was erroneous. In stating that, he was simply giving his opinion, which I thought you said "everyone is entitled to post".

[thejason]

I was not criticized by bytor. When I used the word 'you' in response to him I was using it as a general statement. I was not referring to him directly.

[Guest ceeboo]

I was not criticized by bytor. When I used the word 'you' in response to him I was using it as a general statement. I was not referring to him directly.

Hi thejason,

you don't think I criticized your opinion do you ??

[bytor2112]

Still, it's my opinion and is no less valid than yours. Don't criticize me if you aren't prepared for it in return.

Your certainly entitled to your opinion, however your opinion would suggest that millions of faithful Catholics feel no remorse for sin and are not held accountable by their ecclesiastical leaders for transgressions. Accountabillity that can include excommunication. Catholics, like many other faithful Christians of other denominations, faithfully adhere to the creeds of their faith and strive to serve the Lord just as faithful Latter Day Saints do. Remember, as Latter Day Saints, we believe they have a portion of the truth, just not the fullness.

[thejason]

Your certainly entitled to your opinion, however your opinion would suggest that millions of faithful Catholics feel no remorse for sin and are not held accountable by their ecclesiastical leaders for transgressions. Accountabillity that can include excommunication. Catholics, like many other faithful Christians of other denominations, faithfully adhere to the creeds of their faith and strive to serve the Lord just as faithful Latter Day Saints do. Remember, as Latter Day Saints, we believe they have a portion of the truth, just not the fullness.

If that's the message I portrayed then I apologize. That was not my intent.

I've been to Catholic confession and when I did it was to a man whom I couldn't see. He heard my confession and pronounced me forgiven. There was no accountablity or remorse mentioned. This does not mean that the people themselves don't feel remorse or hold themselves accountable. I was referring to the act of confession itself and the leaders in charge.

[Guest ceeboo]

If that's the message I portrayed then I apologize. That was not my intent.

I've been to Catholic confession and when I did it was to a man whom I couldn't see. He heard my confession and pronounced me forgiven. There was no accountablity or remorse mentioned. This does not mean that the people themselves don't feel remorse or hold themselves accountable. I was referring to the act of confession itself and the leaders in charge.

HMMMMMMMM,

Was this " man " you claim to have confessed to a janitor, a cab driver, perhaps a professional bowler ?

Are you SURE you have been to a Catholic confession or is this more of your "opinion":)

Peace,

Carl

[thejason]

I wouldn't say it if it weren't true.

[bytor2112]

Mormons and Catholics really have a lot in common. Both contend that they are the true Church of Christ. Both have ecclesiastical accountability. Both believe they have the Priesthood. Both are led by men who are considered to be the Lord's official spokes person. Both have sacred texts in addition to the Holy Bible. Catholics have strong family values and large families. Purgutory and Spirit Prison. A deep reverence for the Savior.

I have long felt that if I weren't LDS....I would be Catholic.

Edited August 12, 2008 by bytor2112

[Moksha]

If someone wants to set his relationship with God aright and he begins the process by talking with servants in whose hands God has placed his authority, then balks and refuses to abide by the conditions set by those servants, then this is, as I wrote before, prima facie evidence that they are not truly penitent.

A good thing about discussion forums is that ideas can brought into focus. I think we are discusssing the merit of the conditions and not an imaginary someone balking at the conditions.

[Vort]

A good thing about discussion forums is that ideas can brought into focus. I think we are discusssing the merit of the conditions and not an imaginary someone balking at the conditions.

Hmm. I don't think that's what we are discussing at all. Rather, I think the discussion was about those who take offense at what they are instructed to do. I can provide supporting quotes, if you like.

Instead, let me take the route of reasoning. You are supposing that the discussion is about "the merit of the conditions". But how could such a thing be discussed in general? The aforementioned conditions would be applied to an individual case of transgression and repentence. Since we do not have an individual case under discussion for which we know the specifics, we could not possibly discuss whether the transgression merits the conditions. Thus, we are left with discussing the general idea of transgression, repentence, and conditions of repentence. QED.

For any given serious transgression requiring Priesthood leadership intervention, we have requirements or conditions for repentence that range from no ecclesiastical punishment up to excommunication. These conditions are specified by a Priesthood leader, who by definition is authorized to determine those conditions. Therefore, if the transgressor is repentant, s/he will accept and abide by those conditions. If s/he does not, it can be concluded with reasonable confidence that s/he his not repentant enough to abide the conditions of repentance.

[WANDERER]

My 2 and a half years as a Catholic probably doesn't qualify for any expert status...

but you need beads for a rosary (or at least I did)...and even then I lost count as a 9 year old and started again.

I remember saying them every single day for a whole month on my knees...something to do with Mary's month...I had a nun as a teacher who was a bit of a traditionalist. Getting up and standing had an ouch factor...cement floors with thin carpet. She rang a bell at midday (little bell) and we all said prayers in front of our altar (with large statue of Mary...people were assigned to bring fresh flowers).

Using wikipedia: Cause I can't honestly remember.

A traditional rosary : of an Our Father, ten Hail Marys, and a Glory Be to the Father, as well as a number of other prayers (such as the Apostle's Creed and the Hail Holy Queen) at the beginning and end.

Multiply the Hail Mary's alone by 15 (Wiki says it's now 20) and you have 150 prayers...and that's not all of them.

And yes...I scored a number of rosaries for confession once. I'm sure I had bad luck in the confessional.

Disclaimer: I was an eight year old convert. I told my mother I wanted to be Catholic (I had a choice of any religion) because I heard that it went back to the original church and thought it was a good choice (my mother wasn't religious so discussing such things at any level didn't happen...just listening mostly). And I went to a Catholic school as a result...cause my mother went and told the Nuns and said what am I going to do? My mother told my grandmother who had a fit...she's protestant to the core. I didn't know that at the time...I was told much later. My mother decided to take us to a pentecostal church (non-denominational) and we eventually went to their school instead...she was unhappy with people in the parish...she stayed non-Catholic. But yes, in two years I was christened, had communion and confirmation ordinances. I spent my first year in a pentecostal school doing the subject of religious history... 11 by then. Eeeeek. From the history of Catholicism to Martin Luther to all denominations. Not sure why 11 year olds were given such hefty material to memorise and digest...I may have started at a different grade since it was part-correspondence and they may have decided it was my ability level.

I do find myself comparing my understandings to the LDS church because confession wasn't a pentecostal thing in my church.. though you could go up and receive prayer for things that were troubling you or chat to a pastor. I don't really think discussing changes or whatever is appropriate for me to do. But the posted discussion does help fill in the gaps a little on my understandings on what repentance means for LDS.

Edited August 12, 2008 by WANDERER

[Misshalfway]

It is interesting to me that confession doesn't seem to be a "protestant" thing. Perhaps it is and I just don't know.

I have been grateful for confession many times. It isn't the easiest thing to do. And I suppose there are effective methods in both Catholic and Lds practice. I suppose the most important thing is that we do it!!! That we are honest about our transgressions and take steps to make our wrongs right again. There in lies peace of mind. I think there is valuable catharsis is working toward changing the outcomes of our actions.

Anybody ever see the movie "The Mission". I will never forget the image of watching Robert Deniro follow Jeffrey Irons up that mountain carrying that bag of burdens! It was an amazing change that took place in his heart and then in his whole way of conducting his life.

I suppose whatever "practice" we follow, this is ultimately the goal. And I hope for all of us that any counsel from an LDS bishop or a Catholic Priest brings us to this kind of change.

[Guest ceeboo]

I suppose whatever "practice" we follow, this is ultimately the goal. And I hope for all of us that any counsel from an LDS bishop or a Catholic Priest brings us to this kind of change.

Misshalfway, AKA NOTHING BUT MISSHALFWAY ( LOL ):)

If I had 3 weeks and a dozen naps I could have not said it any better.:):):):):):)

Thanks for sharing.

Peace,

Carl

[bytor2112]

One issue for some is that we do not have a professional clergy. Some seek solace and council for issues that may not be strictly spiritual and feel that Bishops just aren't trained to handle all situations. Some also feel that because the Bishop may have been Brother Smith, the Gospel Principles instructor last month that they don't want to talk to him. Personally, I respect the office of Bishop and whomever is called to that role. My good friend is the Bishop of our ward. I would not want to talk to him about my past, which has already been cleared up by my former Bishop. I wouldn't want him to know those things, but if I were to want to talk about my past, even though the sins were resolved by Priesthood authority.... I might be hesitant to do so. I think that is a sticking point for some.