Some problems with the Joseph Smith manual?

[Mahonri1]

In reading the manual lessons I came across a couple things that bother me. Joseph, after baptizing his father in 1830 is claimed to have said "I have lived to see my father baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".

Joseph could not have said this. This name was not given nor used until two or more name changes had been made, six years or so in the future.

Why are they trying to teach 'truth' by telling lies?

Then we have Joseph in jail writing letters to Emma Smith, his wife.

What about all the other wives? Weren't they worth writing? Were they toys to be played with and ignored otherwise? Or did Joseph write them and the letters are hidden away, destroyed or ignored?

I appreciate teaching faith but not by lying and censoring the truth. Printing half truths, changing history and ignoring basic honesty does not speak well for those who would have us believe.

[bytor2112]

Well....perhaps he made the quote some years later.....and when whom ever recorded the Prophets statement attributed it to the earlier date. Joseph's plural marriages are a bit nebulous anyway...perhaps there just isn't any surviving letters to these spouses. It is surprisng that there is not any books or lengthy accounts written by any of his plural marriages....at least that I am aware of.

[Jenamarie]

I just looked up that quote about his father online, and he doesn't say the full church name.

Here's that paragraph:

The Prophet was especially grateful to see his father, Joseph Smith Sr., baptized. The Prophet had a deep love for his father, who had been the first to believe his message after he was first visited by Moroni. Joseph Smith Sr. was baptized on April 6, 1830, the day the Church was organized. The Prophet’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recalled: “Joseph stood on the shore when his father came out of the water, and as he took him by the hand he cried out, ‘… I have lived to see my father baptized into the true church of Jesus Christ,’ and he covered his face in his father’s bosom and wept aloud for joy as did Joseph of old when he beheld his father coming up into the land of Egypt.”3

and the link to that chapter online:

LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost

[bytor2112]

Maybe you misread Mohonri......... but Jenamarie is correct.

[Jenamarie]

Maybe you misread Mohonri......... but Jenamarie is correct.

Ahhhh, it's so refreshing to hear that!

[bytor2112]

Ahhhh, it's so refreshing to hear that!

I have read your posts....and you always seem to be right:)

[Mahonri1]

Yes, it is possible I misread. But I did not misread page 138, second paragraph where it says "I then laid my hands upon Oliver Cowdery, and ordained him an Elder of teh "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter0dayk Saints; after which, he ordained me also to the office of an Elder of said Church.

I remember reading what I posted because we had a discussion on it in the priesthood meeting and it got quite contentious.

How many name changes did the church Joseph started/restored did it go through to get to the one we use today? I know of three but have heard or more. Any information on that?

Seems odd that the date of formation was so specifically told to Joseph but not the name of the Church.

[bytor2112]

He refers to it as Church of Christ in the same paragraph.....probably a retelling of events some years later...

[bytor2112]

Seems odd that your comments are so derrogatory.....the church that Joseph started??? I am confused are you a Saint? Your profile says that you are...

[ruthiechan]

Yes, it is possible I misread. But I did not misread page 138, second paragraph where it says "I then laid my hands upon Oliver Cowdery, and ordained him an Elder of teh "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter0dayk Saints; after which, he ordained me also to the office of an Elder of said Church.

I remember reading what I posted because we had a discussion on it in the priesthood meeting and it got quite contentious.

How many name changes did the church Joseph started/restored did it go through to get to the one we use today? I know of three but have heard or more. Any information on that?

Seems odd that the date of formation was so specifically told to Joseph but not the name of the Church.

First, revelations are given *after an inquiry has been made*. It could be that the Prophet Joseph Smith did not directly ask until later.

It also says in the begining of the paragraph on pg 138 that Joseph Smith reported the events of the meeting held on April 6, 1830 to organize the Church. It doesn't say *when* he reported those events. Also, he was reporting the *day* the Church became official, and when our Church became official we had our current name. It didn't become official and then went through name changes as far as I know. Thusly, he could have simply used the current and official name when retelling those events.

The other wives of Joseph Smith, well, it's not 100% certain that they existed. Emma Smith says that he never had other wives. It was said that he has been sealed to other women, but sealed as what? I am sealed to my father and mother and brothers and sisters and through them other family members. It doesn't mean I'm married to any of them.

Remember also, that it was a calling to have more than one wife. Only 4% of the membership had more than one wife, and those men weren't particularly interested in having another wife and having a whole other family to take care of. Pardon the comparison but it was sort of like having two or more mortgage payments. And for many it was their first wives basically saying their husbands "Hey the Lord wants you to do this so do it" that got them to accept the calling. Therefore those second wives, which were generally widows with children, were taken to wife out of duty and a love of God, not because they were in love with them. Joseph Smith was deeply in love with his wife Emma.

[Elphaba]

Joseph had a revelation in 1830 that the name of the Church should be "Church of Christ."

In 1838 Joseph had a another revelation, changing the Church's name to its current one, i.e., The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Different names were adopted in the interim, but they were not by revelation. One example is "The Church of the Latter Day Saints.

Elphaba

[Dale]

In reading the manual lessons I came across a couple things that bother me. Joseph, after baptizing his father in 1830 is claimed to have said "I have lived to see my father baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".

Joseph could not have said this. This name was not given nor used until two or more name changes had been made, six years or so in the future.

Why are they trying to teach 'truth' by telling lies?

Then we have Joseph in jail writing letters to Emma Smith, his wife.

What about all the other wives? Weren't they worth writing? Were they toys to be played with and ignored otherwise? Or did Joseph write them and the letters are hidden away, destroyed or ignored?

I appreciate teaching faith but not by lying and censoring the truth. Printing half truths, changing history and ignoring basic honesty does not speak well for those who would have us believe.

Look historians after Joseph Smiths death sometimes inserted things as if he said it. Unless the person who cited it was aware of it they meant no deception. I think he probably said the name of the church at the time and someone substituted the later church name. Lots of the official LDS history and my Community of Christ historians did such with many quotations.

The person who liked the quote was probably unaware the quote had been edited. It almost takes an informed person on the subject to know such changes were made. But using an edited quote was not done to lie, or teach lies.

Joseph Smith did write Emma.

Joseph Smith could not have been involved with 33 women. Even Todd Compton who wrote In Sacred Lonliness himself admits Joseph Smith had some platonic marriages. These marriages were supposed to become real relationships in the afterlife. I see the author of that book as making dubious case for children, and sexuality in some of his favorite examples. I see more of Joseph Smiths sealings as platonic in some cases he asserts involved marital relations in the flesh.

The President of my church Joseph Smith 3rd in public, and Emma Smith privately admitted that. Their side was that the women that claimed to be involved with Joseph Smith in Utah were misrepresenting these platonic marriages as real marriages. Many in my church feel they were wrong and Joseph Smith had some earthly wives other than Emma.

Traditional RLDS feel the LDS leaders forgered some of the documents implicating Joseph Smith in polygamy. I am open to questioning the authenticity of William Claytons Nauvoo Journal, and D.&C. 132. Scholars cite James Whitehead and William Law about the size of the copies of the July 12th 1843 revelation they saw. But they leave out one little thing both men accused the LDS leaders of adding to the revelation. James Whitehead said the copy he saw at Winter Quarters did not allow for polygamy. Whereas William Law maintained it allowed for polygamy in the flesh.

Others in my church find my witnesses unreliable. So others in my church feel he was involved and see no reason to defend him. I do not know of any of Joseph Smiths 33 wives who said they felt toyed with. The ones i know of were proud of their connection with Joseph Smith. If they felt used they would not have stated they were proud. I know of nothing to suggest that any of the women felt toyed with.

If Joseph Smith wrote any of the wives they probably did not keep the letters. If he requested they burn the letters they probably complied. To me the content of these letters are private and none of my business. Why people need to be told the basic polygamy information nothing private needs to be shared.

I see no evidence of lying in anything you wrote. You just noted a bad old editorial practice of editing quotations. I think its ok to tell the story, but not everything. I do not see a manual as a place for lessons about history. The LDS history underwent many changes i think in the early 19th & 20th century by now dead historians. Rather than edit the old history we should leave the quotes as is. To me the old histories are documents now and i hate to see them tampered with. It is ok to cite from them. It is ok to cite a fictional quotation from them thats been edited. But be aware of the editing. But don't think it makes LDS leaders dishonest.

A good manual does not have to be perfect. It does not have to be free of flaws. I like the way the manual sounds like it reads and would not change a thing. I hate history corectness it takes all the spirituality out of just reading. One can become so obsessed by fault finding one loses the ability to get the spiritual benifits associated with imperfect church manuals.

[Mahonri1]

Joseph had a number of wives. Women such as Marinda Hyde, the wife of Orson Hyde who he sent on a mission to Palestine.

How can anyone have more than one wife, be in jail and not communicate with them?

Seems very odd that he would only communicate with one. The one that knocked Eliza R. Snow Smith down a flight of stairs and caused her to miscarry Josephs baby. Threw Fannie Alger out of the house when she caught Joseph with the 14-16 year old.

Start reading some Church History and take off the blinders. The leaders were not perfect just as Noah and past leaders were not. Prophetic leaders yes, but perfect men, no.

If Joseph Smith had tried to marry my wife after sending me on a mission he would end up dead in a ditch after being castrated. Some things you just don't do, prophet of God or not. Orson Hyde never had this wife sealed to him, she was Josephs.

As for the formation of the Church, The Lord gave specific instructions as to the Date it was to take place but not the name? Two other name changes (some references say four but two until it was the current one is all I can find) show something is odd. Didn't the Lord know what name he wanted in the beginning? Add to this the Church was organized in Manchester, not Fayette and you have members such as I asking 'what is going on'?

Yes, I am a member and I do not like being lied to. Commission or omission, it is still a lie. Print the truth and let us think for ourselves. This crap of 'when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done' is contrary to everything Joseph and Brigham taught. They taught members to listen and think for themselves, not blindly follow.

It is almost as deceitful and satanic as 'follow the leaders, even when you know they are wrong, and you will be blessed for it'. The biggest load of garbage ever taught by anyone, anywhere. The Nazi's used this excuse. If I am told to do things I know are wrong, even if given the excuse 'it is OK because we are your leaders', I definately would not do it. You don't shift responsibility for your own actions. That is contrary to the Gospel and personal responsibility as contained in the scriptures. I wonder at the level of intelligence of anyone who would believe such stupidity.

Just teach the Gospel, not fanciful excuses and ideas designed to get people under control. Do what Joseph Smith taught: Teach correct principals and let the people govern themselves. It really is that simple.

[breeb]

Ok....1st of all being someone who has come from a family that was active one year then inactive the next then active again back and forth back and forth. Never once being forced by anyone from the church to think a certain way or to ignore the past mistakes of the church. I just have to say, I have no idea where you are coming from.

2nd I think your comparison to the Lord's Church and the Nazi's is......well I'm not even sure what word to use here. Again, being a member, but not always an active one, I have NEVER been forced to believe. As you say the Church does. It is opinions such as yours that makes people think we are a cult.

3rd I have a very simple question for you......Do you believe this is the LORD's church. Not Joseph's, but the LORD's?

[a-train]

Much of the issue of the name of the Church was legal. In fact, the Church was incorporated in 1851 by legislation of the State of Deseret under the name The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, that incorporation was dissolved by the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887. The Church is now an 'unincorporated religious association'.

It matters to me very little whether it be legally called the Church of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Church of the Lamb of God, the Church of God, Christ's Church of the Latter-Day Saints, the Church of Jesus, the Church of the Latter-Day Christians, the Church, the Church of the Latter-Day Saints, etc.

All of these things are simply what the law of the land will tolerate with respect to intellectual property. The Church is not simply some legal corporation with some particular intellectual rights in some particular jurisdiction.

We have revelation on the subject concerning the name that we are to take upon ourselves and the implementation and implication of that act. It matters not what the legislative, the judicial, or even the executive branches of any government recognize.

-a-train

[bytor2112]

How can anyone have more than onthem?e wife, be in jail and not communicate with

How do you know he didn't communicate with them.......crsytal ball???

If Joseph Smith had tried to marry my wife after sending me on a mission he would end up dead in a ditch after being castrated. Some things you just don't do, prophet of God or not. Orson Hyde never had this wife sealed to him, she was Josephs.

End up dead in a ditch and castrated???? Doesn't sound like something a true and faithful follower of Jesus Christ would ever say...LDS or otherwise. Sure you want to stick by those words...you would really murder and castrate? Mohonri, I am certain that the Spirit is not with you, your words are contentious and filled with hateful venom. Even if your words are bombastic, testosterone filled rhetoric, it is still wrong and not worthy of a true disciple of Christ or anybody for that matter.

It is almost as deceitful and satanic as 'follow the leaders, even when you know they are wrong, and you will be blessed for it'. The biggest load of garbage ever taught by anyone, anywhere. The Nazi's used this excuse. If I am told to do things I know are wrong, even if given the excuse 'it is OK because we are your leaders', I definately would not do it. You don't shift responsibility for your own actions. That is contrary to the Gospel and personal responsibility as contained in the scriptures. I wonder at the level of intelligence of anyone who would believe such stupidity.

I think you are missing the point....men who hold keys..your Stake President, Bishop and General Authorities....if they council you in error and because you follow there council, you will not be held responcible for their error. Our leaders are not Nazi's... a terrible analogy by the way. They are men and do make mistakes, but if we are faithful and do as we are led to do we will be blessed. You may wonder about the level of intelligence, but perhaps you should stop so much thinking and buying in to the snares of the adversary and start seeking the Holy Spirit for guidance.

Just teach the Gospel, not fanciful excuses and ideas designed to get people under control.

Do what Joseph Smith taught: Teach correct principals and let the people govern themselves. It really is that simple.

Do what Joseph taught??? You have already threatened that you would have castrated him and murdered him...but you say do what he taught. You are confused. The key here is prayer and lots of it and stay away from the anti stuff...it is poisonous, as poisonous as pornography. Ask yourself when you were happier and felt the Spirit more. Was it before you decided that the church was just out to decieve....bet it was. Better watch out the exit sign is lit up and you are working your way towards it. Just my humble opinion.

Edited August 19, 2008 by bytor2112

[breeb]

So, I guess he's not coming back to answer my question????

[ldsmissionary]

So, I guess he's not coming back to answer my question????

He certainly didn't know how to behave.

[goofball]

Look at his name in his post. It says banned because he was not able to follow the rules

[ldsmissionary]

Look at his name in his post. It says banned because he was not able to follow the rules

I think we all caught that.

[Vanhin]

He doesn't deserve to be named after the brother of Jared...

Vanhin

[Snow]

In reading the manual lessons I came across a couple things that bother me. Joseph, after baptizing his father in 1830 is claimed to have said "I have lived to see my father baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".

Joseph could not have said this. This name was not given nor used until two or more name changes had been made, six years or so in the future.

Why are they trying to teach 'truth' by telling lies?

Then we have Joseph in jail writing letters to Emma Smith, his wife.

What about all the other wives? Weren't they worth writing? Were they toys to be played with and ignored otherwise? Or did Joseph write them and the letters are hidden away, destroyed or ignored?

I appreciate teaching faith but not by lying and censoring the truth. Printing half truths, changing history and ignoring basic honesty does not speak well for those who would have us believe.

Yeah! They all lying to you. Maybe you can have them arrested. You're really on to something.

[Moksha]

Why are they trying to teach 'truth' by telling lies?

I haven't been reading apologetics for several years and not know the answer to this one. The answer is that all truths are neither helpful nor faith-promoting. It could potentially cause confusion in the Elders Quorum and cause some of the High Priests to wake up, if an unaccustomed name was mentioned.

[mikey9a]

Ask the questions that will give you a testimony of faith. Then you will receive answers to the questions that develop knowledge. Mahonri seems to be questioning his faith in the truthfulness of the Gospel. There are a lot of things I do not know about the church history, but I do know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God which makes Joseph Smith his Prophet. After that I learn line upon line, foundation upon foundation.