What makes our church so bad ?

[Moksha]

I am a bit allergetic to the smoke and I really have difficulties with that and no matter what I say sometimes it is tolked wrong.

The only thing I remember about toking is that you inhale and hold it. Later on you get the munchies.

[OtterPop]

When did they [illinois] make this offical statement [of apology to Mormons]?

In April 2004 -- although I had thought it was Missouri, but it was actually Illinois.

Illinois Tells Mormons It Regrets Expulsion - New York Times

Edited August 25, 2008 by OtterPop

[Hemidakota]

Sorry! I had to ask that question and force you to link it since I know the answer already. You stated Missouri when in fact; it was the Lt Governor and the Governor of Illinois that made that apology but not Missouri. Missouri will be swept clean prior to the Lord arrival.

Blog site quote:

I also find it interesting to see the active role that so-called Christian clergymen played in stirring up and even leading mob actions against the Mormons, both in Missouri and Illinois. I don't know if we have ever received an apology from any of the churches that played a role in such atrocities, but I am grateful that the State of Missouri took the Extermination Order off the books in 1976 (sorry folks - it's no longer legal to shoot us on sight). And I'm grateful that the State of Illinois has officially apologized to the Church for what happened there. That's right--in March 2004, a resolution was passed by the Illinois Legislature asking for "the pardon and forgiveness" of the Mormon Church for persecution that led to the expulsion of 20,000 members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1844 from Nauvoo, and for the 1844 vigilante murder of Mormon leader Joseph Smith. Thank you, Illinois!

[bytor2112]

I do not want to turn this into another Trinity thread. But, I'll "short answer" your inquiry, and then raise the reason of why this doctrine is a line in the sand for so many Christians.

1. Jesus did not pray to himself, he prayed to his Father. The Trinity, with its three persons, does not deny this.

2. The Trinity has been Christianity's explanation of the nature of God for nearly 2000 years. We would argue that even prior to the Nicene Council, there are hints at it, and that Scripture supports the doctrine. The fact that such heresies as Modalism and Subordinationism (Jesus = a god) have hounded the Trinity, and yet have failed to gain significant traction, in our view, means that God has protected this truth and shown favor to it.

Of course this all dovetails with the doctrine of the Restoration. The Trinity is either apostasy triumphant for 1900 years, or it is one of those truths that survived, despite the corruption and failures of men.

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

[ldsmissionary]

I'll bite.

To speak directly at the original question, perhaps part of the answer can be explored by the LDS Church's perpetuation of an elitist myth that those who leave the church, or who don't believe as latter-day saints do, are somehow evil, wrong, or incorrect in their thinking.

Chapter 27 of the Joseph Smith manual for this year is a powerful example of how this attitude continues to perpetuate itself among members of the LDS faith.

It's an incredibly offensive example of how the LDS Church as an organization is advertising a falsehood, expecting its members to bite the bait.

I think Mormons are better than this. I think they're better than judging people for believing differently. I think they're better than that lesson in the manual.

Cheers.

Edited August 26, 2008 by prisonchaplain
Removed link that appears to be highly disrespectful concerning Temple activities.

[Nenad]

If I can share a few thoughts... I come from a pretty traditionalist country, although one not hostile to new ideas. Given how small the LDS community here is, most people don't really have the first clue about its teachings or doctrines. I suspect that, as in other parts of the world, it is not necessarily for the doctrines that ordinary non-LDS folks sometimes react in an unfriendly way. To a degree, it is simply the fear of unknown.

Connected with that is the way the LDS Church has been proselytizing. Needless to say, not everyone appreciates missionaries knocking on their doors. In my country tracting is seen as a most obnoxious activity and people tend not to respond well to that at all. I'm under impression that the LDS Church is not very sensitive to specific cultural differences and simply goes on preaching the gospel in Serbia the same way as it does in Colorado or Japan. It's just that people don't like strangers knocking on their door, be they Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons or people selling stuff (and missionaries are usually perceived like that, too).

For those who know more about the Church, I suppose that doctrinal differences are seen as irreconcilable. Not to mention certain practices: Mainline Christians find a lot of what the LDS do simply strange, from the temple rituals to garments... It's not that they hate the LDS, they simply find some of their beliefs and practices alien and in disagreement with their own faith. And they don't like being told that the one true church is any Church other than the one they already belong to.

[bytor2112]

I'll bite.

To speak directly at the original question, perhaps part of the answer can be explored by the LDS Church's perpetuation of an elitist myth that those who leave the church, or who don't believe as latter-day saints do, are somehow evil, wrong, or incorrect in their thinking.

Chapter 27 of the Joseph Smith manual for this year is a powerful example of how this attitude continues to perpetuate itself among members of the LDS faith.

The lesson can be found here.

It's an incredibly offensive example of how the LDS Church as an organization is advertising a falsehood, expecting its members to bite the bait.

I think Mormons are better than this. I think they're better than judging people for believing differently. I think they're better than that lesson in the manual.

Happiness is for everyone.

Cheers.

So your saying we should encourage memers to have apostate beliefs and promote the idea that they will be just as happy in another faith or having no belief at all?????? The Teachings of Joseph Smith shouldn't offend you or anyone else. I am certain that members of other faiths are encouraged not to leave their fold...especially not leave and become an LDS. Elitest myth???? The Church doesn't advertize falsehoods and you shouldn't be putting links to anti-websites on posts....happiness is for everyone links to an anti-site.You might want to read the site rules........

Edited August 26, 2008 by bytor2112

[HiJolly]

To speak directly at the original question, perhaps part of the answer can be explored by the LDS Church's perpetuation of an elitist myth that those who leave the church, or who don't believe as latter-day saints do, are somehow evil, wrong, or incorrect in their thinking.

I think many who leave the Church have some issues that need to be worked out, and they are thinking that leaving the Church will assist in that process. It might. OTOH, I personally have found a large number of those who left and then returned were extremely glad that they returned. So I guess there's more than one way to look at it.

Chapter 27 of the Joseph Smith manual for this year is a powerful example of how this attitude continues to perpetuate itself among members of the LDS faith.

The lesson can be found here.

I think it's important that those who are in a committment, honor that committment insofar as it is possible. If one's experience in the Church leads one to Christ, then it should not be abandoned; if not then it should be abandoned. But as I mentioned before, many times the leaving of the Church is not permanent, and I think it reasonable to suppose that many who leave simply need time and experience before they can benefit from what the Church has to offer. I know there are exceptions, of course.

It's an incredibly offensive example of how the LDS Church as an organization is advertising a falsehood, expecting its members to bite the bait.

I totally disagree with this characterization. It borders on ignorant pap. As Brother Brigham is said to once stated:

If we are offended by one who intends no offence, we are a fool; If we are offended by one who intends to offend, we are a bigger fool.

I think Mormons are better than this. I think they're better than judging people for believing differently. I think they're better than that lesson in the manual.

I hope so.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

Nenad,

While I understand the cultural issue, as most people feel bothered by having someone knock on their door regardless of the country, LDS also understand we have a mandate to find those who are willing to listen, who are seeking the fullness of the gospel. There aren't many ways to share the gospel besides in a one-on-one situation, which often means in new locations one must go door to door.

For those who do join, even in Serbia, the tracting was a blessing, and not an annoyance.

[ldsmissionary]

So your saying we should encourage memers to have apostate beliefs and promote the idea that they will be just as happy in another faith or having no belief at all?????? The Teachings of Joseph Smith shouldn't offend you or anyone else. I am certain that members of other faiths are encouraged not to leave their fold...especially not leave and become an LDS. Elitest myth???? The Church doesn't advertize falsehoods and you shouldn't be putting links to anti-websites on posts....happiness is for everyone links to an anti-site.You might want to read the site rules........

My response was speaking directly to the inquiry.

what do we do that makes folk from other denominations seem to dislike or even hate us so much.

Teaching in a lesson manual that folks who aren't Mormon or who have left the Mormon faith are somehow evil would certainly contribute to the reason that some folks 'dislike or even hate us so much.'

The LDS Church can choose to perpetuate that sentiment by continuing to teach the elitest myth that those who leave the LDS church or who aren't members of the LDS faith are evil, but my hope is that the LDS congregation will choose to ignore the rubbish in that particular lesson.

Other churches face the same challenge. Nobody likes to lose a customer. But it's just silly to think that someone who leaves any church is evil.

[ldsmissionary]

I think many who leave the Church have some issues that need to be worked out, and they are thinking that leaving the Church will assist in that process. It might. OTOH, I personally have found a large number of those who left and then returned were extremely glad that they returned. So I guess there's more than one way to look at it.

I think it's important that those who are in a committment, honor that committment insofar as it is possible. If one's experience in the Church leads one to Christ, then it should not be abandoned; if not then it should be abandoned. But as I mentioned before, many times the leaving of the Church is not permanent, and I think it reasonable to suppose that many who leave simply need time and experience before they can benefit from what the Church has to offer. I know there are exceptions, of course.

I totally disagree with this characterization. It borders on ignorant pap. As Brother Brigham is said to once stated:

I hope so.

HiJolly

I understand where you're coming from as a member of the LDS faith, but to speak directly to the original inquiry, we have to step outside of the LDS theology a little bit.

what do we do that makes folk from other denominations seem to dislike or even hate us so much.

Labeling people as being 'evil' for not believing in Mormonism undoubtedly contributes to the sentiment that people 'seem to dislike or even hate us so much.'

It's not so much 'why' the LDS church does it.

It's hard to imagine that folks would want to be friendly with an organization that teaches its members to think less of them for believing differently.

[prisonchaplain]

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

This, of itself, would not be a denial of the Trinity.

[Hemidakota]

I thought it would....:)

[prisonchaplain]

So your saying we should encourage memers to have apostate beliefs and promote the idea that they will be just as happy in another faith or having no belief at all?????? The Teachings of Joseph Smith shouldn't offend you or anyone else. I am certain that members of other faiths are encouraged not to leave their fold...especially not leave and become an LDS. Elitest myth???? The Church doesn't advertize falsehoods and you shouldn't be putting links to anti-websites on posts....happiness is for everyone links to an anti-site.You might want to read the site rules........

If you believe links to anti sites are embedded in posts, please do report the post. I happened to be reading the string, so discovered the accusation. It appears to me that this site is a blog by an LDS member, and is not intended to be anti. However, feel free to report any suspicions. Chances are, several moderators will investigate.

[a-train]

This, of itself, would not be a denial of the Trinity.

Ahh yes!!! Exactly! I am still not able to see any difference between the LDS teaching and the Trinity.

-a-train

PS, every thread is a Trinity thread.

[bytor2112]

If you believe links to anti sites are embedded in posts, please do report the post. I happened to be reading the string, so discovered the accusation. It appears to me that this site is a blog by an LDS member, and is not intended to be anti. However, feel free to report any suspicions. Chances are, several moderators will investigate.

Hi PC....I don't know how to report it and it is anti. It is a blog, but an anti one. The information there is certainly not faith premoting and makes a mockery and profanes the sacred beliefs of the members of the church.

[bytor2112]

This, of itself, would not be a denial of the Trinity.

Then you believe as we do??? The Godhead consists of God the Father....a glorious personage of flesh and bones, Jesus Christ....the only begotten Son and also a glorious personage of flesh and bones and the Holy Spirit.....a personage of Spirit.....together being One Eternal God.....one in purpose...not in substance. I thought the Trinity meant that they are one in substance and a Spirit essence..no?

[bytor2112]

Teaching in a lesson manual that folks who aren't Mormon or who have left the Mormon faith are somehow evil would certainly contribute to the reason that some folks 'dislike or even hate us so much.'

The manual isn't intended for a general audience. It is a teaching manual and the lesson would be taught in context to members. You say 'us' as though you are 'us' still. But, after following the link to your blog...you are definitely not 'us' any longer. I am not one who believes that the LDS church is hated by orthodox Christianity as a whole. Misunderstood...certainly, but true Christians don't hate. There are some fanatics on the fringes that definitely hate and make it their mission in life to expose the LDS church as a fraud, just as there are those who make it there mission to expose Christianity as a fraud. Blogs like yours certainly help to perpetuate fear and misunderstanding about the church. The things you have posted at your blog, you may see as truths....others see as profaning the sacred.

The LDS Church can choose to perpetuate that sentiment by continuing to teach the elitest myth that those who leave the LDS church or who aren't members of the LDS faith are evil, but my hope is that the LDS congregation will choose to ignore the rubbish in that particular lesson.

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” After exploring your site...this seems very prophetic. I think that this lesson must have struck a little to close to home for you....after all you are basically doing as Joseph described. Your blog and others like it don't do much to prove that what the Prophet said is rubbish......IMHO.

Other churches face the same challenge. Nobody likes to lose a customer. But it's just silly to think that someone who leaves any church is evil.

In context, the lesson is speaking about those who do enter into unrighteous practices and actively seek to bring down the church. I don't think that those who leave are evil...some are very decent people and others have their own reasons and though I wish they didn't leave, I have no problem with their decision if it makes them happy. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Edited August 26, 2008 by bytor2112

[a-train]

If I understand correctly, the Trinity doctrine itself does not give any specific definition of the corporeal nature of the Godhead or any specific Person of the Holy Three.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

Hi PC....I don't know how to report it and it is anti. It is a blog, but an anti one. The information there is certainly not faith premoting and makes a mockery and profanes the sacred beliefs of the members of the church.

OK...I'll report it, and let some others take a closer look. I saw the part where the author cited the recent commission for LDS members to go forth and make blogs, and his claim that he was responding to that call...but in any case, more familiar minds than mine might agree.

[ldsmissionary]

The manual isn't intended for a general audience. It is a teaching manual and the lesson would be taught in context to members.

We're still not on the same page, I'm afraid. We need to speak directly to the fact that the LDS church teaches its congregation that those who leave the church or who believe differently are labeled as 'evil.'

You say 'us' as though you are 'us' still. But, after following the link to your blog...you are definitely not 'us' any longer.

Actually, I was quoting the original inquiry. The inquiry says 'us' so I quoted 'us.'

I am not one who believes that the LDS church is hated by orthodox Christianity as a whole.

Agreed.

I don't think that those who leave are evil...some are very decent people and others have their own reasons and though I wish they didn't leave, I have no problem with their decision if it makes them happy.

Which is a great attitude to have. But the lesson is full of rubbish accusations and assumptions towards those who don't embrace Mormonism or have walked away from it.

And to speak back to the original inquiry, it's certainly a part of the answer.

[HiJolly]

This, of itself, would not be a denial of the Trinity.

Right, it is a denial of modalism.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Ahh yes!!! Exactly! I am still not able to see any difference between the LDS teaching and the Trinity.

I agree.

HiJolly

[VisionOfLehi]

Wait a minute...

Non-LDS people aren't evil?

I missed that memo. Musta been sick that day.

[Moksha]

Teaching in a lesson manual that folks who aren't Mormon or who have left the Mormon faith are somehow evil would certainly contribute to the reason that some folks 'dislike or even hate us so much.

I tend to agree that we should not characterize them in any negative way. We should show love and respect for people both coming and going.