The Value Of Education

[Guest jackvance88]

i took the church's, and my parents', counsel i.e., to go get an education.

seven years, two degrees (undergrad and grad), and $50,000 later, and i earn less now than what i did before, except this time i actually owe money whereas before i didn't. and no, i'm not a liberal arts major either.

i'm am seriously considering discouraging my own kids from going to college. i don't want then to be in the same situation i'm in. i feel more towards the type of education alluded to by the likes of hugh nibley and brigham young, that which doesn't require vast sums of capital and which is an end in itself rather than a means to an end.

any thoughts?

[DisRuptive1]

Sadly, sometimes it's easier to get ahead in life by pounding time out on the job instead of in the classroom. Experience is sometimes more valuable than theory. Theory is for planners, experience is for labororers (those people that actually work!)

[Guest jackvance88]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Aug 27 2004, 11:32 PM

Sadly, sometimes it's easier to get ahead in life by pounding time out on the job instead of in the classroom. Experience is sometimes more valuable than theory. Theory is for planners, experience is for labororers (those people that actually work!)

i totally agree with you. work is work is labor. god commanded adam to work by the sweat of his brow (or something like that) and that didn't mean read books for 15-20 years!! i just don't understand why parents and even leaders in the church are encouraging people to invest in education. surely education is about educating yourself for the sake of it, because it's fun, and shouldn't be seen as a means to earn a living. plus, the economic system we live under (capitalism) requires that the majority of the people don't try and get well paid jobs, so that we maintain the "underbase" of cheap labor upon which the substantial minority can leverage to make profit which then trickles down to the underbase who see their wages increase enough so that they make an acceptable standard of living to want to remain there.

[Amillia]

Education doesn't necessarily mean book learning and class rooms.

There are teachers who can't teach, engineers who can figure out how to build a road correctly and doctors who don't know the first thing about taking care of the body.

I wonder if it could be just one of those many agenda's had by big business. Universities are always saying how short of funds they are and then they add a huge baseball diamond to their lot.

I don't trust propaganda on this level anymore. I don't believe we realy need college educations even for teaching. Most the good teachers are naturally born good teachers and bad teachers are people who were good in school and had no trouble getting a certification for teaching, but are very destructive to the education of our youth.

IOW paper work/education doesn't make for good teachers. I also know of an educated idiot that had the paper work stating he was an engineer. But he didn't know the first thing about engineering, ruined the road where I live, leaving a huge pool in the intersection when it rains.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we lived in an enlightened society where people were given the right to work according to their talents and gifts and make a living doing so, without paper work stating they were what they weren't, or were at great expense.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Amillia@Aug 29 2004, 02:25 PM

There are teachers who can't teach, engineers who can figure out how to build a road correctly and doctors who don't know the first thing about taking care of the body.

Huh? I disagree completely - and by the way, I'm right.

Show me a doctor, licensed and practicing, mentally healthy and sober, that does not know the first thing about taking care of the body, and I join a convent.

Show me a random group of doctors and compare their knowledge of keeping the body healthy to a random group on non-doctors and see what you get.

Let's not hyperbolize to make a dubious point.

[Snow]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Aug 27 2004, 02:30 PM

i'm am seriously considering discouraging my own kids from going to college.

Uh, yeah.

Don't let your bad experience cause you to mess up your children. Those with more education make more money and have better employment rates, than those who don't. Google it, find out:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:xeyUa...education&hl=en

There seems to be a recent trend that having a masters isn't the hot ticket that it once was but I attribute that to two things - over-supply of masters grads and perhaps a reflection on those who would rather study than do.

If you want to be a dishwasher or ditch digger, at least be an educated one.

[Tr2]

I believe that would be a disservice to your children if you were to discourage post secondary education. Hugh Nibley and Brigham Young lived in a different time where you cannot draw a comparisson to today. There are many degrees that are not worth anything by themselves. My own degree isn't worth very much but it enabled me to get to a place that I would not have been able to go without it.

Most people with degrees seem to think that they don't have to work as hard as somebody who doesn't, or at least that is the way they live.

[john doe]

I can see multiple sides of this argument. I believe you have to do what's right for you, but it is always good to err on the side of more education.

I work in the automotive repair field, where it doesn't take much to get in, but if you want to succeed, you need to be smart enough to know how to learn. After 20 years in the business, with technology changing so fast, I still have to go to specialized schools on a regular basis to stay on top of things, and that is just so I can keep up with one car manufacturer. If I stop going to school, my ability to fix the newer cars stops pretty quick. Plus, the best shops will only hire ASE certified techs, and they have to be recertified every 5 years. The recertification tests are college-type multiple choice questions, and anyone without that background will have a hard time passing them. The best techs I know have all been through some sort of college program, and most have graduated from at least a technical school.

Many companies today want their new employees to have a college degree of some sort, even if it is not in the field they are working in. There are many reasons for this, not the least if which is that college grads know how to study and learn. They have shown that they can do what it takes to succeed in getting through their program.

This does not mean that all college grads are going to succeed, but it sure helps. People with very little or no secondary education have a very low chance of succeeding in life compared to those who do. Encouraging young people to not get an education is setting them up for failure later in life.

While it is true that experience is the best way to learn, if you don't know the theory behind the experience, you have likely missed something and lack a total understanding of how things work. For instance, you may know that when someone puts diesel fuel in a gas car, it won't run, but do you know why? Do you know what the difference between regular and premium gas is and how those differences change with altitude and temperature? Some very smart and highly educated people spend a lot of time figuring these complicated things out, and the H.S. grads get to pump the gas if they can find a full-service staton that will hire them.

I agree that our school system has a way of rewarding people who have no clue how to teach children with teaching certificates, and I partially believe in the saying that those who can, do, and those who can't, teach. But I also believe that part of the problem is that public school is a beaurocracy like most things in government, and the system breeds mediocrity. Determining how to get more quality from teachers is a hard thing to do, especially with teachers unions demanding to do less and less for more and more. Massive changes are needed, but the best people to effect these changes have no incentive to get involved.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Aug 29 2004, 05:44 PM

Hugh Nibley... lived in a different time where you cannot draw a comparisson to today.

Uh what different time would that be. Hugh Nibley is alive as we speak. What time are you living in?

Most people with degrees seem to think that they don't have to work as hard as somebody who doesn't, or at least that is the way they live.

Bull, I bet you can't come up with a single piece of evidence to support that. Given that those with a higher education sacrificed living better in the present to earn more in the future, logic would tell you just the opposite.

[Lindy]

well Jackvance...you asked for thoughts....you have gotten a few....and here's mine.

I will agree with those who say that experience counts...but you have to find someone to give you the experience. I am seeing more and more high school students looking for jobs because 'mommy and daddy want them too', they don't have the first clue about responsibility or common sense about a lot of things. They are thrown into the work force to obtain experience from the hapless businesses they come in contact with.

Which is great for those who need the teen age no brainers to do the menial tasks that basically anyone can do.

I think that many employers look at those who have a year or two of college or tech school, over those who don't. Main reason is for perserverance and the willingness to try to better yourself.

I am finding more and more people leaning towards the tech schools to gain the experience and the knowledge in the fields they want to specialize in. Like JohnDoe and the auto tech stuff. I used to think that tech schools were for the kids who couldn't make it to the college level.....but I have since changed my tune and think that a good tech school can help people get better jobs than just a general education degree will. It looks pretty on the wall, but it doesn't do much for the knowhow on specialized job requirements.

And I agree, I think that college helps youth be able to deal with the job requirements of any position. Interviews, employee tests, training classes, recertification tests, all are based on knowledge and to some degree....intellienge. I also think that college helps the transition between the teenager and young adult in our youth. (of course...that depends on the college)

[DisRuptive1]

What about the dumb jocks? They get scholorships and then don't know what to major in so they take business management and become managers and stuff and I'm rambling.

[yaanufs]

I spent 9 years at University.

3 very technical degrees later I'm earning considerably more than if I never had any university education. My kids will be certainly be encouraged to attend university.

FWIW I really only went for the extra 2 degrees because of the the clear message from G.B.H. His teaching on this subject made me push in that direction and it's something I'm very grateful for.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 29 2004, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Aug 29 2004, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Aug 29 2004, 02:25 PM

There are teachers who can't teach, engineers who can figure out how to build a road correctly and doctors who don't know the first thing about taking care of the body.

Huh? I disagree completely - and by the way, I'm right.

Show me a doctor, licensed and practicing, mentally healthy and sober, that does not know the first thing about taking care of the body, and I join a convent.

Show me a random group of doctors and compare their knowledge of keeping the body healthy to a random group on non-doctors and see what you get.

Let's not hyperbolize to make a dubious point.

Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?

[Guest jackvance88]

of the friends i grew up with i am the only one who went on a mission and then went to college and grad school. in those 10 years in which i was not earning anything they have worked, earned enough to raise families, saved money, and bought homes. i on the other hand am single, no home equity, $$$ in student debt, and earning way less than them, even though i work as a professional. i just don't see the logic in having an education.

[sgallan]

"Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?"

The above quote suggests a need for education....

[Snow]

Originally posted by Amillia+Aug 30 2004, 11:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Aug 30 2004, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Aug 29 2004, 03:44 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Aug 29 2004, 02:25 PM

There are teachers who can't teach, engineers who can figure out how to build a road correctly and doctors who don't know the first thing about taking care of the body.

Huh? I disagree completely - and by the way, I'm right.

Show me a doctor, licensed and practicing, mentally healthy and sober, that does not know the first thing about taking care of the body, and I join a convent.

Show me a random group of doctors and compare their knowledge of keeping the body healthy to a random group on non-doctors and see what you get.

Let's not hyperbolize to make a dubious point.

Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?

No, and unless you go google it now, you don't either but what on earth does that have to do with you point that some doctors don't know the first thing about taking care of the body?

Nothing.

After 12 years of school, 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency, and then practicing medicine, no other group of people know more about taking care of the body. In fact, I would safely guess that every practicing in the US knows more about taking care of the body than do you. Oh sure, there could be one doctor somewhere that suffered a massive head trauma as a result of a horrible hedge clipper accident and so has forgotten all he knows about taking care of the body, but that isn't what you were referring to.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Amillia+Aug 30 2004, 11:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Aug 30 2004, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Aug 29 2004, 03:44 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Aug 29 2004, 02:25 PM

There are teachers who can't teach, engineers who can figure out how to build a road correctly and doctors who don't know the first thing about taking care of the body.

Huh? I disagree completely - and by the way, I'm right.

Show me a doctor, licensed and practicing, mentally healthy and sober, that does not know the first thing about taking care of the body, and I join a convent.

Show me a random group of doctors and compare their knowledge of keeping the body healthy to a random group on non-doctors and see what you get.

Let's not hyperbolize to make a dubious point.

Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?

The filing of a malpractice lawsuit says absolutely nothing about whether a doctor has made a mistake. All it means is that a patient isn't satisfied with a medical outcome, and a lawyer has convinced him to try and turn that dissatisfaction into money.

Case in point: Vice presidential candidate John Edwards made millions of dollars suing OB/GYNs for supposedly causing cerebral palsy by allegedly failing to read fetal heart monitors correctly and perform emergency C-sections. The consensus among medical researchers is that the incidence of cerebral palsy has virtually nothing to do with difficulties during labor. It's almost always genetic, which tends to explain why, despite the major increase in the use of C-sections over the past couple of decades, there hasn't been a corresponding decrease in the frequency of cerebral palsy.

In other words, Edwards and other members of his plaintiff's-bar industry are able to wrest millions of dollars from doctors by appealing to the emotions of juries who know virtually nothing about medical science and, in fact, hand down verdicts that science expressly contradicts.

I believe that questions of fact in cases involving complicated scientific questions should be decided by special panels of experts. The old "jury of your peers" system, which evolved in a time where complex science generally wasn't a factor in cases, is outmoded, and invites abuse.

Anyway, to reiterate: malpractice suits, by themselves, say very little about whether there has been actual malpractice.

(That's not to say that medical malpractice doesn't happen; my friend's father died after routine surgery when someone *forgot to turn on the oxygen in his oxygen tent* and he asphyxiated.)

[Faerie]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Aug 30 2004, 02:49 PM

of the friends i grew up with i am the only one who went on a mission and then went to college and grad school. in those 10 years in which i was not earning anything they have worked, earned enough to raise families, saved money, and bought homes. i on the other hand am single, no home equity, $$$ in student debt, and earning way less than them, even though i work as a professional. i just don't see the logic in having an education.

I'm sorry jack, but your statement holds no water with me. You are equating serving 2 years on a mission and 8 years of schooling with your lack of income...

Sorry, I don't buy it and in fact I think you are looking for an excuse to blame something for why you are not where you thought you would be...

case in point: my brother served his 2 years, earned his bachelor's and master's...he married and had a child while finishing school..he owns a home in W. Jordan and has a successful career working in the Church Finance Department and recently his wife gave birth to their third child...he also teaches at the LDS business college for extra cash in addition to his newfound career as an author...so why is HE doing well, but you aren't? It has nothing to do with schooling or luck, it has everything to do with ambition, motivation, and desire...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you live in Utah. Utah is one of THE worst places to be looking for a job these days. It is also one of THE worst places to date if you're over the age of 25-27...You want to make more money, you want to find a spouse, you want to pay off your bills? Stop settling for a less-than-average job and move to where the money is. Unless you degree'd in Basket Weaving, I can almost guarantee there is a market out there for your skills. And because you ARE single, you can easily up and move w/o worrying about how it affects others. Please don't claim you can't "afford" to move. Anyone w/ a car can pack their life up and make a change. People do it every day.

You don't see the logic in having an education, yet knowledge is the one thing we take with us when we die. How about some statistics? Go read the link Snow posted. Educated people do better. There are no "ifs, ands, or buts" about it. YOU don't see the logic because YOU are in a funk. Get out of the funk and you will see your hard work pay off. Your schooling has nothing to do with your marital status either, that's a cop-out.

Sorry that I'm not sugary sweet in telling you that of course it's all your education's fault...but that's just lame! What did you get your degrees in? What is your current position? Who did you take out on a date last weekend? lol!! Stop blaming the SMART choices you've made in achieving your education and start doing something about your life....

[Amillia]

Originally posted by sgallan@Aug 30 2004, 12:51 PM

"Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?"

The above quote suggests a need for education....

WRONG!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 30 2004, 01:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Aug 30 2004, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Aug 30 2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by -Snow@Aug 29 2004, 03:44 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Aug 29 2004, 02:25 PM

There are teachers who can't teach, engineers who can figure out how to build a road correctly and doctors who don't know the first thing about taking care of the body.

Huh? I disagree completely - and by the way, I'm right.

Show me a doctor, licensed and practicing, mentally healthy and sober, that does not know the first thing about taking care of the body, and I join a convent.

Show me a random group of doctors and compare their knowledge of keeping the body healthy to a random group on non-doctors and see what you get.

Let's not hyperbolize to make a dubious point.

Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?

No, and unless you go google it now, you don't either but what on earth does that have to do with you point that some doctors don't know the first thing about taking care of the body?

Nothing.

After 12 years of school, 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency, and then practicing medicine, no other group of people know more about taking care of the body.

They should. But don't!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Amillia+Aug 30 2004, 11:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Aug 30 2004, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--sgallan@Aug 30 2004, 12:51 PM

"Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?"

The above quote suggests a need for education....

WRONG!

Well gosh Amillia, it had to argue with that kind of definative logic.

[sgallan]

" WRONG! "

You are what? Ten perhaps?

Or is that when you stopped your education?

Just curious.....

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Amillia+Aug 30 2004, 11:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Aug 30 2004, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Aug 30 2004, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Aug 30 2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by -Snow@Aug 29 2004, 03:44 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Aug 29 2004, 02:25 PM

There are teachers who can't teach, engineers who can figure out how to build a road correctly and doctors who don't know the first thing about taking care of the body.

Huh? I disagree completely - and by the way, I'm right.

Show me a doctor, licensed and practicing, mentally healthy and sober, that does not know the first thing about taking care of the body, and I join a convent.

Show me a random group of doctors and compare their knowledge of keeping the body healthy to a random group on non-doctors and see what you get.

Let's not hyperbolize to make a dubious point.

Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?

No, and unless you go google it now, you don't either but what on earth does that have to do with you point that some doctors don't know the first thing about taking care of the body?

Nothing.

After 12 years of school, 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency, and then practicing medicine, no other group of people know more about taking care of the body.

They should. But don't!

Well, guess we all know Amillia's personal bias.

But that's OK. When Amillia's dying and is taken to the hospital I am sure that the doctors will overlook her distrust of them and save her life anyway. That's the way they are. (Well, most of them, anyway.) Their dedication to their calling usually takes higher priority than their personal feelings.

We love you anyway, Amillia! B)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Jenda+Aug 31 2004, 07:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Aug 31 2004, 07:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Aug 30 2004, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by -Snow@Aug 30 2004, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Aug 30 2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by -Snow@Aug 29 2004, 03:44 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Aug 29 2004, 02:25 PM

There are teachers who can't teach, engineers who can figure out how to build a road correctly and doctors who don't know the first thing about taking care of the body.

Huh? I disagree completely - and by the way, I'm right.

Show me a doctor, licensed and practicing, mentally healthy and sober, that does not know the first thing about taking care of the body, and I join a convent.

Show me a random group of doctors and compare their knowledge of keeping the body healthy to a random group on non-doctors and see what you get.

Let's not hyperbolize to make a dubious point.

Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?

No, and unless you go google it now, you don't either but what on earth does that have to do with you point that some doctors don't know the first thing about taking care of the body?

Nothing.

After 12 years of school, 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency, and then practicing medicine, no other group of people know more about taking care of the body.

They should. But don't!

Well, guess we all know Amillia's personal bias.

But that's OK. When Amillia's dying and is taken to the hospital I am sure that the doctors will overlook her distrust of them and save her life anyway. That's the way they are. (Well, most of them, anyway.) Their dedication to their calling usually takes higher priority than their personal feelings.

We love you anyway, Amillia! B)

Is sarcasm really all you have?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 31 2004, 12:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Aug 31 2004, 12:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Aug 30 2004, 11:34 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--sgallan@Aug 30 2004, 12:51 PM

"Have you any idea how many law suites for mal-practice there are?"

The above quote suggests a need for education....

WRONG!

Well gosh Amillia, it had to argue with that kind of definative logic.

Spot on!