Uncomfortable Doctrine

[richlittell]

I can tell you why it's NOT doctrine, though it may very well be true. Just look at this thread. It is a tough and difficult concept. The church's purpose is for presenting the principles of salvation and the support of the family. There are many truths that go beyond the average person's ability to understand--especially those from different cultural backgrounds. These things will never be doctrines until the minds of the people are ready.

Ceeboo, Many prophets have spoken on thousands of topics on many occasions to diverse audiences. We do not hold every word spoken out of their mouths to be the indisputable word of God.

I should clarify...

The church's purpose is for presenting the principles of salvation in a manner that can be understood and accepted by most people, not for introducing confusion among those of differing backgrounds. That's why we have the Bible, the Book of Mormon, D&C, the Pearl of Great Price and the General conference talks. These are the only principles relevant to salvation. That, Ceeboo, is why not every word ever spoken from the mouth of every prophet on every occasion is considered to be a doctrine of salvation. Also, as pointed out earlier, there are many prophets, Joseph was our prophet and is not our god. Moses was our prophet once, but to this Christ added more in the fulfilling of the law and all the prophets. And so today, we have modern day prophets that help us in our current mortal state concerning the conditions of our times and the things that are most important to our salvation, and to every generation, there is a different emphasis on different aspects of the Gospel according to that generation's needs. The King Follet sermon is not relevant to our salvation. If I have difficulty understanding it or accepting it, but I live my life as Christ has taught, according to the basic principles as taught by the prophets through all ages, I shall receive my reward.

:)

[HiJolly]

Hi Misshalfway,

:confused: The two you mention ( King Follet and BofM ) are both recieved by the exact same prophet ?? Why so much weight on one and so little on the other ??

In accordance with modern revelation, the Book of Mormon was voted upon by the body of the Church and received as scripture. The King Follett discourse was not. That is the difference. A revelation is not accepted as scripture unless it is voted upon by the membership of the Church.

HiJolly

[Misshalfway]

It would be very difficult for a Protestant or Catholic (or atheist for that matter) to prove to a faithful LDS person that Joseph Smith is not a prophet from God. And, indeed, most of us who frequent this site have no intention of doing so. Rather, we raise our questions as non-LDS, who have much that prevents us from easily accepting LDS claims. If Joseph Smith is a prophet, it means that my church is seriously wrong it so much of what it teaches. It also means that I have badly misunderstood many spiritual experiences and promptings that I have had.

So...when we discuss these things, we learn the other's perspectives, gain some new understanding of our current faith, and, in some cases, find ourselves nudged in one spiritual direction or another.

I appreciate this. I know that our doctrine is difficult because of the very reasons you stated. If I have failed to communicate my empathetic feelings and compassion in this regard, I apologize. I know our faith challenges your faith....and all faiths, for that matter. I am aware of the boldness of the message. And I apologize for not being more sensitive in my posts to the very personal and cherished beliefs of all involved in this conversation. If I have treaded insensitively it was unintentional, I assure you.

But I also feel that any challenge to the LDS perspective deserves a counter challenge. I think the willingness to receive a challenge with respect and understanding should go both ways.

My purpose in asking my series of "How do you know questions" was an effort to help gain perspective about why we follow Joseph and how all of us can come to a consensus on truth even on at least one point. It is clear to me....that truth is like light. You can't compartmentalize light. It shines and fills space and chases darkness in an instant and is one great whole. I don't think that God gives one truth to one group or person....and another contradictory truth to the rest. I think he gives us truth line upon line, precept upon precept. And sometimes, because we are human, we don't see clearly or understand the eternal view. I can't know how God does this or why it looks the way it does to me in this world, nor can I comprehend all the vast purposes of God and why he leads people where he leads them. I only hoped that by asking such questions, that we could perhaps understand each other or at least so that Ceeboo and others can understand the process by which we have come to our conclusions. Whether he or you or anyone agrees or disagrees, is a personal thing.

Please forgive my failing to communicate empathy concerning what it must be like for you all to hear and process the LDS message. I hope I can communicate such more effectively in the future.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

Hi Misshalfway,

:confused: The two you mention ( King Follet and BofM ) are both recieved by the exact same prophet ?? Why so much weight on one and so little on the other ??

I wish that I new more about the Catholic faith so that I could draw some parallel here.

I wonder, does your clergy come to consensus on what is doctrine and what isn't? Do they discuss any spiritual communications and measure them against scripture? In your faith, are their doctrines that relate more heavily on salvation than others that perhaps fall into the "nice to know but not essential to know" catagories?

The BofM to us is like the Bible is to you. It is essential. Everything.....our entire position stands or falls on the BofM itself, meaning the way it came to be, and then the content of every word on every page.

The Follett just isn't the same animal.

I can understand your confusion. But it may help if you don't use such a black and white perspective to view spiritual revelation. I know in my own life, as God communicates to me, some answers and promptings are more important than others or carry more weight or have different purposes.

The same is true here. The BofM is a revelation to the world! It is evidence that God still speaks to man and that Christ's ministry here on this earth was not confined to Jerusalem. It is a document that is meant to be shared with every person on this planet who will receive it and we have been told that the world will be judged against the acceptance or denial of this book. We are talking serious, big kahuna business here!

King Follett is a slight, miniscule glimpse into the heavens and the eternities. A peek, a taste and ONLY that.

(DISCLAIMER: It is a little early in the morning where I am. I hope when I reread this later.....when I can focus.....it will have actually made sense. :) )

Edited September 6, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Still_Small_Voice]

It was a sermon.. as such it was recorded by various people. That's not even considering the people who took notes.

It's beyond solid in my opinion. If it wasn't the LDS church wouldn't quote it in talks, ensign articles, etc. I can't believe it isn't considered scripture.

Yes, it is quoted in the Ensign (a church publication). The church does approve of the King Follett Sermon given by Joseph Smith as scripture.

[Misshalfway]

Yes, it is quoted in the Ensign (a church publication). The church does approve of the King Follett Sermon given by Joseph Smith as scripture.

As scripture? Are you absolutely certain? I don't see it in my quad nor do I see it grouped in with the listed canon.

Just a reminder....it is only the conference edition of the Ensign that is considered in such a way.

[Still_Small_Voice]

The King Follet sermon is not relevant to our salvation. If I have difficulty understanding it or accepting it, but I live my life as Christ has taught, according to the basic principles as taught by the prophets through all ages, I shall receive my reward.

:)

I will agree with you on this point. I really like this quote:

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” -- Joseph Smith

[Vort]

As far a Vort being right, I don't know, how does anyone conclude which of JS's offerings are " maybe not accuratly documented " and which ones are ( A VERY DANGEROUS ROAD TO GO DOWN, especialy if your LDS IMHO.)

Hey, buddy. I'm not just a Vort, I'm the Vort.

It's actually quite simple. The standard works -- Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price -- are the word of God to us. Thus, the latter three are "accurately documented" revelations to Joseph Smith. In addition, those revelations that Joseph Smith himself wrote down or caused to be written down can be considered accurately documented, whether or not they ended up in our D&C.

The funeral sermon for Elder Follett (the "King Follett discourse") is neither a holograph nor a directed dictation. The doctrine found in it, correctly understood, is doubtless true, and the sermon has been used throughout Church history as a touchstone for the plan of salvation and as a source for understanding that plan. I personally think it is perhaps Joseph's crowning achievement. Nevertheless, it cannot be relied upon uncritically, and despite the pronouncements of well-intended individuals on this list, it is most certainly not scripture in the sense that the standard works are scripture.

As I have already pointed out, when the particular nuance of word or phrase is necessary to grasp the full and accurate meaning delivered, a pieced-together recounting of a funeral sermon taken from several different sources simply doesn't provide you the required rigor. We can marvel at the "King Follett discourse", we can ponder its words and their implications, we can use it as a starting point to seek for further knowledge; but we cannot legitimately proclaim it as the foundation source for whatever doctrines we care to draw from it.

Not that that stops people from trying to do exactly that, as this thread illustrates.

[Guest ceeboo]

I can tell you why it's NOT doctrine, though it may very well be true. Just look at this thread. It is a tough and difficult concept.

Ceeboo, Many prophets have spoken on thousands of topics on many occasions to diverse audiences. We do not hold every word spoken out of their mouths to be the indisputable word of God.

Hello richlittell,

In an attempt to create an even playing field so that our discussions can have a chance to befefit us all, I will try and offer a few points for consideration.

For me, non-LDS, it is not just the King Follet that is a tough and difficult concept, rather it is all of JS claims, including but not limited to the BofM.

To try and add additional flavor, I ( Catholic ) believe that when Jesus ( God ) came to earth ( filling and completing all OT prophesy ) he ALONE is the way the TRUTH and the light. So forgive me but any other claims that differ, add on, or make completly anew, are simply blasphemy.

To further be clear with you, It is NOT that I have difficulty in the King Follet sermon ( I certainly do not believe anything JS claims to prophesize nor any other human being over the last 2000 years ) It is my TOTAL and COMPLETE confusion as to why so many LDS people do or don't believe or accept his ( JS ) prophetrized teachings.

God bless,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

In accordance with modern revelation, the Book of Mormon was voted upon by the body of the Church and received as scripture. The King Follett discourse was not. That is the difference. A revelation is not accepted as scripture unless it is voted upon by the membership of the Church.

HiJolly

Hello HiJolly,

Thanks for that " voting " info.:):confused:

Peace,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

[quote name=Misshalfway;2542

Christ's ministry here on this earth was not confined to Jerusalem. It is a document that is meant to be shared with every person on this planet who will receive it and we have been told that the world will be judged against the acceptance or denial of this book. We are talking serious' date=' big kahuna business here!

Hi Misshalfway,

You have been told this by who?? ( JS ) and why is that sooo serious and not other things he told you??

I would suggest that it is NOT the acceptance or denial of the book of BofM that is serious, big kahuna business, rather there is no bigger kahuna than the Lord Jesus Christ and the words, teachings, and lessons he gave us when HE HIMSELF WALKED THIS EARTH.

God bless,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

Hey, buddy. I'm not just a Vort, I'm the Vort.

As I have already pointed out, when the particular nuance of word or phrase is necessary to grasp the full and accurate meaning delivered, a pieced-together recounting of a funeral sermon taken from several different sources simply doesn't provide you the required rigor. We can marvel at the "King Follett discourse", we can ponder its words and their implications, we can use it as a starting point to seek for further knowledge; but we cannot legitimately proclaim it as the foundation source for whatever doctrines we care to draw from it.

.

Hello " the Vort " :) ( sorry that was my bad, a typo as they say )

Interesting contribution, " taken from several different sources " to me, IMHO, that would speak volumes to it's credibility. It ( the several different sources ) reminds me of why IMHO, the NT and earthly life and lessons of Jesus Christ is SOLIDLY cemented to ALL who will hear and listen to the TRUTH, and LIGHT that he BOLDLY professed.

It is also interesting to me that the claims of JS that are witnessed by large numbers of people are " not accepted " or only " speculation " or " confusing to so many LDS " and the claims of JS that were witnessed by a mere few or none are SOLID in the LDS eyes.

God bless,

Carl

[justamere10]

Hi Misshalfway,

You have been told this by who?? ( JS ) and why is that sooo serious and not other things he told you??

I would suggest that it is NOT the acceptance or denial of the book of BofM that is serious, big kahuna business, rather there is no bigger kahuna than the Lord Jesus Christ and the words, teachings, and lessons he gave us when HE HIMSELF WALKED THIS EARTH.

God bless,

Carl

Ironically, the book you apparently reject, written by prophets, some of whom once lived in Jerusalem, contains the record of JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF visiting and teaching his "other sheep" in America!

[candyprpl]

Hi Misshalfway,

:confused: The two you mention ( King Follet and BofM ) are both recieved by the exact same prophet ?? Why so much weight on one and so little on the other ??

Because we know that The Book of Mormon are words directly from God and go hand in hand with the Bible. And is doctrine.

Yes, both received by the same prophet -- Joseph said the Book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ. If he had said that this particular sermon was also directly from God and should be recorded just as he says and put in the Book of Mormon as a revelation, then that is where we would read it and know that it was doctrine. (I hope I said that right):)

Like I said earlier, wouldn't it be nice to sit down with the prophet and talk to him about this now.:)

[Guest ceeboo]

Ironically, the book you apparently reject, written by prophets, some of whom once lived in Jerusalem, contains the record of JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF visiting and teaching his "other sheep" in America!

Hi justamere,

Ironic ???? No, obvioulsy you ( LDS ) believe as such, But to be fair, there are MILLIONS of Christ followers ( Me included ) that do not adhere to your suggested " facts " you offer.

Peace,

Carl

[candyprpl]

Hello richlittell,

In an attempt to create an even playing field so that our discussions can have a chance to befefit us all, I will try and offer a few points for consideration.

For me, non-LDS, it is not just the King Follet that is a tough and difficult concept, rather it is all of JS claims, including but not limited to the BofM.

To try and add additional flavor, I ( Catholic ) believe that when Jesus ( God ) came to earth ( filling and completing all OT prophesy ) he ALONE is the way the TRUTH and the light. So forgive me but any other claims that differ, add on, or make completly anew, are simply blasphemy.

To further be clear with you, It is NOT that I have difficulty in the King Follet sermon ( I certainly do not believe anything JS claims to prophesize nor any other human being over the last 2000 years ) It is my TOTAL and COMPLETE confusion as to why so many LDS people do or don't believe or accept his ( JS ) prophetrized teachings.

God bless,

Carl

I was wondering if you could answer a question for me.

Why have I been so very blessed if I'm following blasphemous church?

I was blessed with a very sacred experience that led me to this church. Do I think you are wrong in your beliefs? NOT AT ALL! I know you and others (like my parents) have also been blessed for your beliefs. I trust that knowledge. I feel your frustration -- a week or two ago I was in tears because Christians can't seem to see eye to eye. What a world this would be if we could!!:)

[Guest ceeboo]

Because we know that The Book of Mormon are words directly from God and go hand in hand with the Bible. And is doctrine.

Yes, both received by the same prophet -- Joseph said the Book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ. If he had said that this particular sermon was also directly from God and should be recorded just as he says and put in the Book of Mormon as a revelation, then that is where we would read it and know that it was doctrine. (I hope I said that right):)

Like I said earlier, wouldn't it be nice to sit down with the prophet and talk to him about this now.:)

Hello candyprpl,

This is where I am not sure how far any of our sharing or perspectives can go:confused:

A monumental obstacle seems to stop any conversation at " A " and I, for one , would b interested in what B-Z might look like. What I mean is if you say you KNOW the BofM are words from God and I KNOW that they are not, then ????? where can we go from there

Peace,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

I was wondering if you could answer a question for me.

Why have I been so very blessed if I'm following blasphemous church?

I was blessed with a very sacred experience that led me to this church. Do I think you are wrong in your beliefs? NOT AT ALL! I know you and others (like my parents) have also been blessed for your beliefs. I trust that knowledge. I feel your frustration -- a week or two ago I was in tears because Christians can't seem to see eye to eye. What a world this would be if we could!!:)

Hey candyprpl,

I will do my very best to answer your questiion.:)

God loves ALL OF US BEYOND OUR MERE JEALOUS, CORRUPT, SELFISH, SINNING human nature can possibly fathom. This is the very reason he ( Jesus/God ) came to teach us love and above all how we should treat " the least among us ". God ( because and directly related to the ultimate sacrifice he freely made for our atonement and eternal salvation)

has given ALL OF US BLESSINGS IN A MULTITUDE OF WAYS. IMHO, you do not " earn " these blessing because of what you do or the choices you make on this earth, RATHER we " creations of God " are given these blessings out of a pure and total love of our very creator and savior. LDS, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, aborigenese and ALL THE REST are all creations of the CREATOR and we are all loved and blessed in many many ways. ( NOT BECAUSE WE EARN THESE BLESSINGS, that IMHO, would indeed be the very height of human arrogance.

For you to suggest that you ( LDS ) do NOT think I ( Catholic ) am wrong in my beliefs is not only enormously confusing to me but I would suggest that it would go directly in oppositition to the very prophet you claim to follow. If you take away all the frosting and niceness,you must, get to the " Cake ". The " Cake " or very " restoration of Jesus' Church can only be valid if said Church ( Jesus', not Catholic ) was indeed " COMPLETLY BROKEN" and a " TOTAL ABOMINATION " to Jesus Christ ( God ) himself. Sadly, I would offer there is no other option.

Lastly, I realize how easy it would be FOR ALL OF US, to be able to " see eye to eye " but I , once again, sadly suggest that the two ( Restoration claim and Jesus' original universal Church ) simply put, DO NOT AND CAN NEVER BE EYE TO EYE.:(

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

You are right, Ceeboo. Getting the Catholic doctrine and the LDS doctrine to jive just ain't gonna happen. But, that in my view, isn't what we are doing here. Seeing eye to eye, to me, means that we learn to understand each other and to perfect that understanding of one another to the point of respect, and maybe as a bonus, we can even find common ground and even learn to be better disciples of Christ inside the interchange.

There is no pressure whatsoever to alter your beliefs. Only an invitation to come and learn more.

You ask me who told me the BofM was true. The short answer is that Father in Heaven did. He did so, for me, multiple times as I have read and studied and pondered the words and the doctrine within its pages. Over and over this book has blessed my life. The Spirit has comforted thru it and reprimanded me and taught me and stretched me. Perhaps your study of the Bible is similar. I have read about the First vision. I remember the days I waited and prayed and waited and prayed......and then the day my answer came. Maybe someday I will share the rest with you. But it was clear that God was speaking to me and that I now have confirmation of Joseph's claims.

PLEASE, if nothing else, understand that the BofM is absolutely and souly about Jesus Christ the Savior of us all. There is no other focus than Jesus Christ in the BofM! I hope that you can, at least see that this is true. Every passage is dedicated to pointing the reader to Him and His infinite Atonement. I wish I could show you. Sit with you and read with you my favorite passages and show you how they relate to the NT and OT. I wish I could show you how Mosiah (a prophet) plead his followers to believe in Christ. I wish I could introduce you Nephi and Laman (who was a nerd) and Alma the younger and Gideon and Amulek and Mormon and Captain Moroni and even the servant Abish. Alma 5 is one of my favorites concerning Christ. But there are so many others....I can't list them all!

I will leave you with one of the final verses in the book. The year is approx 421 ad and Moroni is the last living person from his people the Nephites. He witnessed the sad destruction of his people as they faught in war after war and refused to obey the Lord. He was hunted and chased by his enemies and he wandered for years protecting the record we know as the BofM. His final written words were these:

Moroni 10: 30

30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.

Moroni 10: 32-34

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Misshalfway

[justamere10]

Hi justamere,

Ironic ???? No, obvioulsy you ( LDS ) believe as such, But to be fair, there are MILLIONS of Christ followers ( Me included ) that do not adhere to your suggested " facts " you offer.

Peace,

Carl

Yes, I know, many Christians are taught to reject anything written by prophets of God except that contained in the few books that were chosen from among many by a council of men.

The Book of Mormon is the sacred record of a group of Jews (meaning all the tribes, not just Judah) who were led by a Prophet of God from Jerusalem some 600 years before Christ was born. Within it are prophecies of his future birth, an accounting of what happened in the Americas among his "other sheep" when he was born, an accounting of what happened in the Americas at his death, and an accounting of his appearance and teachings in the Americas soon after his resurrection.

His teachings were so powerful and so well accepted that there was a period of unprecedented joy and prosperity among all the people for two hundred years before pride and worldliness again settled in.

The Book of Mormon was actually written for our time. Those who read it carefully come to recognize the same symptoms in America today that led to the entire destruction of two great American nations that preceded ours.

We have the Bible only because of the Jews. We have the Book of Mormon only because of the Jews. Jesus Christ was a Jew. Why callously reject another witness of our Savior from the Jews?

I for one would never refuse to read and pray about such a second testament of Jesus Christ once I became aware that such a book existed.

You can read the Book of Mormon online or request a free book at:

Mormon.org

[justamere10]

Hi justamere,

Ironic ???? No, obvioulsy you ( LDS ) believe as such, But to be fair, there are MILLIONS of Christ followers ( Me included ) that do not adhere to your suggested " facts " you offer.

Peace,

Carl

I understand about those other "Christ followers" having been an active Roman Catholic until I read the Book of Mormon when I was 22 years old and God revealed to me by His Holy Spirit that it is as true and from Him as is the Holy Bible.

[Guest ceeboo]

You are right, Ceeboo. Getting the Catholic doctrine and the LDS doctrine to jive just ain't gonna happen. But, that in my view, isn't what we are doing here. Seeing eye to eye, to me, means that we learn to understand each other and to perfect that understanding of one another to the point of respect, and maybe as a bonus, we can even find common ground and even learn to be better disciples of Christ inside the interchange.

In my view, there is no need to feel any threat at all. I know many think we are off the deep end! It doesn't bother me. And I hope it doesn't bother others either. Because we are all doing the best we can. Believe what you believe. There is no pressure whatsoever to alter your beliefs. Only an invitation to come and learn more.

So.....the fact that we disagree is a given. We can accept that and lay it to the side and get back to the business of making sense of what we are all trying to say to one another. We may never see a particular doctrine or scriptural passage the same way, but I think that we can develop an understanding of why one believes the way that they do and how they came to believe that way. Maybe making this more of an acdemic study might help. No personal investment or measure or comparison. For me such evaluations happen between me and God and no one else anyway. We can just take a global look at what makes mormons and catholics tick. I don't know what will help here. Just an idea........

You ask me who told me the BofM was true. The short answer is that Father in Heaven did. He did so, for me, multiple times as I have read and studied and pondered the words and the doctrine within its pages. Over and over this book has blessed my life. The Spirit has comforted thru it and reprimanded me and taught me and stretched me. Perhaps your study of the Bible is similar. I have read about the First vision. I remember the days I waited and prayed and waited and prayed......and then the day my answer came. Maybe someday I will share the rest with you. But it was clear that God was speaking to me and that I now have confirmation of Joseph's claims.

PLEASE, if nothing else, understand that the BofM is absolutely and souly about Jesus Christ the Savior of us all. There is no other focus than Jesus Christ in the BofM! I hope that you can, at least see that this is true. Every passage is dedicated to pointing the reader to Him and His infinite Atonement. I wish I could show you. Sit with you and read with you my favorite passages and show you how they relate to the NT and OT. I wish I could show you how Mosiah (a prophet) plead his followers to believe in Christ. I wish I could introduce you Nephi and Laman (who was a nerd) and Alma the younger and Gideon and Amulek and Mormon and Captain Moroni and even the servant Abish. Alma 5 is one of my favorites concerning Christ. But there are so many others....I can't list them all!

Hi Misshalfway,

As always, I thank you for sharing your personal journey and perspective with me.:)

I do appreciate the invitation to learn more, I think I have tried to the best of my( bias eyes) ability to do just that on this forum. I would also extend that same invitation to you and others in that respect.:)

YES INDEED I realize ( from the limited reading I have done concerning the BofM and other LDS beliefs ) that the BofM is centered around Jesus, some is also very " erily " similar to previous, alreadyin existed scripture.

I also completly agree that from my limited scope, the LDS people seem to do there very best on this earth to adhere to many of the Jesus teachings that we can all see in the NT.

Additionaly, IMHO, again in my limited scope, the LDS seem to be very family oriented as well as kind, gentle, welcoming people ( obviously have been with me ) to all who come across there path.

To try and lend " academic study " to this as per your suggestion, Why ( concerning all the Sacred Scripture we have available to us ( OT and NT ) and all the early church writers who wrote about an enormous amount of events during the first few hundred years that Christ walked this earth as well as all the writers in the OT) is there no mention at all, not a single hint, of any of the individuals in the BofM, not to mention that not one writer seems to have known a Mormon let alone any account of all it's claims or the " great last battle "????

At any rate, I truly do not judge you or others, I ( ceeboo ) have my hands very full in trying to live up to " living like Christ " in a very broken world.

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

Thanks Ceeboo. I appreciate that. :)

It is clear that you have doubts about the Book of Mormon. That is all good. You are not the first with your list of concerns.

Will you read it anyway?

[candyprpl]

:DIn all fun Ceeboo,

I used to be as stubborn as you!

(just needed to break things up a little, ya know?)

Friends, Candace

[Guest ceeboo]

Yes, I know, many Christians are taught to reject anything written by prophets of God except that contained in the few books that were chosen from among many by a council of men.

Mormon.org

Hello again justamere,

I certainly can appreciate your implication ( few books chosen by a council of men ) but would offer a very different account as to what and the reasons I ( Catholic ) believe what I do, I can assure you, for what it is or is not worth to you, it has very very little to do with your implied bias, rather has EVERYTHING to do with the words and teachings directly from the mouth of Jesus Christ ( God ).

As for the rest of your post, I do appreciate your perspective but please understand that it is NOT fact as you suggest, it is simply your testimony. We ( Christians ) all have those.

God bless,

Carl

Edited September 6, 2008 by ceeboo