Why The Book of Mormon couldn't have taken place in North America

[livy111us]

FAIR has written a great review of Rodney Meldrums works/claims that The Book of Mormon happened in North America, and that DNA, archaeology, etc... support it. They show that he is wrong on most points. Very interesting:

Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography

[NeuroTypical]

From the Aug 2008 FAIR Journal:

The review of Rodney Meldrum's material was difficult for us because it deals with the ideas of a fellow active member of the Church. To try to be fair with him, we provided him with a rough draft of the reviews on July 12 and asked him to get back to us by September 1. He agreed to tell us if there was anything in our critique with which he agreed, and if so what he was going to do to prevent the spread of bad information. He also agreed to tell us what he did not agree with, and why. We have received nothing back on either of those points.

In response to the draft of our reviews, the only feedback we have received is that he wishes we wouldn't have this discussion. He has said that the DVD sales are now his sole source of income and we hope that fact does not influence his stance on these matters. To be fair, he has personally assured me that he has other financial options. With that in mind, I wish him and his family well.

What a dang shame.

LM

[bytor2112]

Interesting to me is that many Apostles and Prophets have believed that Hill Cumorah where Joseph found the plates is the very Hill Cumorah and Ramah where the great battles occured. Notably, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, Marion G. Romney, LeGrand Richards and others.....made statements in confernce talks and in published works attesting to this.....

[prisonchaplain]

Loudmouth...wow...I'm sorry, but it seems rather caddy and political for FAIR to insinuate that a fellow active church member has no defense and has proffered his research primarily for money. It's like saying, "We don't want to hit below the belt...so we'll just use "quotes" from our opponents to do so." I'm I reading this wrong?

[Hemidakota]

Not the first time they would do that....

[NeuroTypical]

Doesn't sound to me like much of an insinuation at all - more like an open stating of some rather damning facts. This guy produced a crappy DVD chock full of errors, unfounded irrational leaps, demonstrable lack of understanding relevant facts, and very troublesome claims about having recieved inspiration that would violate church doctrine on how revelation happens. FAIR wrote up all these problems and sent them to the author for comment, and the author has apparently refused to comment beyond "please don't tell the world about your problems with my DVD, it's my only source of income".

Is it really a "hit below the belt" to tell the world about the author's total lack of substantive response? As far as I can tell, his response lives here at the Fairblog. There's lots of back and forthing between FAIR and Meldrum here, I suggest anyone interested read the comments.

LM

[edited as I discovered where the author is responding]

Edited September 4, 2008 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[prisonchaplain]

Doesn't sound to me like much of an insinuation at all - more like an open stating of some rather damning facts. This guy produced a crappy DVD chock full of errors, unfounded irrational leaps, demonstrable lack of understanding relevant facts, and very troublesome claims about having recieved inspiration that would violate church doctrine on how revelation happens. FAIR wrote up all these problems and sent them to the author for comment, and the author has apparently refused to comment beyond "please don't tell the world about your problems with my DVD, it's my only source of income".

Is it really a "hit below the belt" to tell the world about the author's total lack of substantive response? Nobody has a gag on this guy, FAIR didn't go and bust his typing fingers, nobody has locked him in a closet. Where is his response?

As far as I can tell, his response lives here at the Fairblog. There's lots of back and forthing between FAIR and Meldrum here, I suggest anyone interested read the comments.

LM

When FAIR insinuated that Meldrum was in it for the money and that he had no defense, it demonstrated a less than ideal spirit, imho. My guess is that the author simply realized that FAIR wasn't going to be fair with him, and chose to disengage. BookofMormonEvidence.org

[Daniel]

I doubt Rod Meldrum would disengage, it's his livelihood. He has everything to lose if his theory is discredited, especially by members of his own faith. Meldrum is also characterizing attacks on his theories as attacks on him. I have seen nothing of the sort, what I have seen is Meldrum calling any scholars and people that don't agree with him as apostates. He is in no position of authority to do so. It also looks like FAIR was gracious with him and tried to help him. When he refused is when they published there findings. I know this was the case on FAIRS first response to the dvd's. From my understanding is they contacting him about using the Prophet incorrectly and he ignored them. He didn't put a change on his website till after FAIR published its findings. He is still selling the original dvd with the mistake with no notice on it. On this most recent release it also seems FAIR gave him over a month to review there work and were willing to work with him. Rod has refused to do this also. If Rod is so compelled that Heavenly Father has revealed to him what he has not revealed to his Prophets, why is he selling this prophetic announcement?

[livy111us]

Joseph Fielding Smith also taught that Lehi Landed in Central America, John Taylor taught The Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica, Joseph Smith taught that The Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica towards the end of his life, and so did MANY more. Opinions varied all over on the location of BOM lands. The only known site is Cumorah, which some assumed to be the same hill mentioned in the BOM, although the BOM teaches that what was eventually known to be called "Cumorah" in North America (wasn't named by JS, but by either WW Phelps, or Oliver Cowdery years after the publication of the BOM), was different than the Cumorah mentioned in The Book of Mormon.

[HiJolly]

Interesting to me is that many Apostles and Prophets have believed that Hill Cumorah where Joseph found the plates is the very Hill Cumorah and Ramah where the great battles occured. Notably, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, Marion G. Romney, LeGrand Richards and others.....made statements in confernce talks and in published works attesting to this.....

True. It's OK with me if they were wrong. Such is the human condition.

HiJolly

[livy111us]

I like Rod, he is a nice guy (to me at least), and I like him. But what would you prefer FAIR do? Say there was a member of your congregation/ward who did not have the expertise to speak on ancient Hebrew inscriptions, had no formal training, but taught all over the US something about these Hebrew inscriptions that were blatently wrong. And on top of that, said the doctors of Hebrew were wrong and leading the Church astray and insinuating if one prays, they will get the confirmation that his ideas are correct. This person also was making A LOT of money off of his ideas (that were not true, but many people were buying it). What would you do different than what FAIR did?

I think FAIR did a great job. Some member were personally attacked by Meldrum numerous times, but did not make a public spectacle of it to platform their position. They didn't get offended and did everything they could to get him back. No. They behaved like both scholars and gentlemen. They spoke with him over 3 months ago expaining what they were doing and brought up concerns with his video, and gave him plenty of time to make changes before a 200 page review was released. Meldrum continued to take jabs at FAIR in that time, but they were patient. After not hearing from him within this time period about what he was going to change, they released only a 100 page document that brings into question the many methods he used, the data he used, and the context, to show that his material is not what it seems to be. It paints a completely different picture than what is actually fact.

[DigitalShadow]

I don't think that FAIR's criticism of Mr. Meldrum's work is innaccurate, but I do think that their level of scrutiny is inconsistent. I've never seen them scrutinize works that agree with scripture and popular LDS theories no matter how unfounded in actual science they are.

In any case, that's just my 2 cents.

Edited September 4, 2008 by DigitalShadow

[prisonchaplain]

Let me start by saying, I've simply read the posts here. I'm not versed in the matter of controversy. I just remained surprised at how personal the criticism was. Sure, destroy the guy's contentions point by point if they are wrong. BUT why use his words to insinuate that he begged them to lay off so he could make money, and to portray him as having no defense because he did not answer their inquiries? I'm not sure how such an approach is redemptive, if FAIR is just trying to help the brother out. All this seems rather undignified and unnecessary, but that's just my ever humble opinion.

[NeuroTypical]

When FAIR insinuated that Meldrum was in it for the money and that he had no defense, it demonstrated a less than ideal spirit, imho.

I take issue with the word "insinuate". That's a word you use when you're attacking someone behind their back, gossiping about them, slyly or subtly trying to do some sort of behind-the-scenes stage setting so people don't notice. When you insinuate something, you're playing dirty politics, elevating rhetoric above fact.

What FAIR is doing is completely above board and transparent. FAIR has severe issues with many aspects of the DVD, including it's claims of being inspired truth, and the author throwing firesides in church facilities. So, the FAIR folks put all their gripes all together and sent them to the author, having first obtained his agreeement to respond by a certain time. The author did not respond, and FAIR published their gripes.

My guess is that the author simply realized that FAIR wasn't going to be fair with him, and chose to disengage.

Well again, he has not disengaged. He is engaging FAIR here. Yesterday (Wednesday 9/3), he stated "look for my complete responses to these several articles on my website at BookofMormonEvidence.org for a more ‘balanced’ understanding of the FAIR reviews in the next few days."

I look forward to reading his responses.

LM

[NeuroTypical]

Let me start by saying, I've simply read the posts here. ... I just remained surprised at how personal the criticism was.

I would seriously urge you to go look at all the links to the source documents people are posting. I scoured the avalanche of point-by-point refutings, to find the snowball's worth of what might arguably be considered a personal attack. Now the entire thread is focusing on that snowball. I think maybe my screen name doesn't help matters any - people see something from "loudmouth mormon" and get an incorrect sense of where I'm coming from. Perhaps I'll change it some day.

The avalanche is found here.

LM

[Moksha]

Loudmouth...wow...I'm sorry, but it seems rather caddy and political for FAIR to insinuate that a fellow active church member has no defense and has proffered his research primarily for money. It's like saying, "We don't want to hit below the belt...so we'll just use "quotes" from our opponents to do so." I'm I reading this wrong?

Look, if you want to win the war of competing ideas, do you not have to get down and crawl in the mud of the trenches or even crack a few heads when need be?

Would the Jesuits not launch an all out frontal assault on the Paulist Fathers as to whether the finger bone of St. Agatha was located in France or Luxemborg when so much is riding on it?

[Daniel]

I don't think that FAIR's criticism of Mr. Meldrum's work is innaccurate, but I do think that their level of scrutiny is inconsistent. I've never seen them scrutinize works that agree with scripture and popular LDS theories no matter how unfounded in actual science they are.

In any case, that's just my 2 cents.

Since Rod hasn't shown FAIR where they were inaccurate perhaps you would be willing to do it for him?

[livy111us]

I also find his tactics to be very inconsistent as well. He says how Joseph Smith had a revealed geography of the BOM, but doesn't address the many times JS said it happened in North America. In personal conversation, he said that Joseph Smith had differing beliefs of where it happened, yet, 10 minutes prior, he was telling someone else that Joseph Smith had it revealed to him that it happened in North America. I don't think that is right. But, like I said, I like Rod and am sure he can offer something to the scholarly community, but he needs to abide the unwritten law of scholastics. He needs to be able to accept criticism and not think it is a personal attack (which I think is the biggest issue), and not portray the same people that are indirectly employed by the Church, are good friends with First Presidency and the Twelve, some of them help write the Manuals for the Church, etc... as apostates. It is not in very good form to do something like that.

Personally, I believe that there were migrations of Nephites "Northward" who made it to Ohio. The Book of Mormon tells us of tens of thousands of people going northward, whether by sea or by land. Interestingly, we have archaeological evidence of migrations from Mesoamerica up the Mississippi, up to Ohio. I think that Joseph Smith was correct in what he said about Zelph. One must wonder if Onandugus was a great Prophet known from the Rocky Mountains to the East Sea, he would have been at least mentioned in the BOM. But he is not. Why? Because Moroni and Mormon had no idea he existed, because he was part of a satellite culture of Nephites in North America.

So I think he can offer something to scholarship in The Book of Mormon, but believe he is doing it in the wrong way by coming out of the gate swinging, calling the scholars of the Church apostate and leading us astray, mis-representing information, and twisting words of our leaders to make a point. If he would have followed what should have been done, there would not be the need for FAIR to review his information.

[DigitalShadow]

Since Rod hasn't shown FAIR where they were inaccurate perhaps you would be willing to do it for him?

I never said that FAIR is inaccurate, just inconsistent in what they scrutinize and to what level.

[Daniel]

I've never seen them scrutinize works that agree with scripture and popular LDS theories no matter how unfounded in actual science they are.

Personally I believe that they see a real danger with his work. That's the reason for the scrutiny. That by using his faulty data, and appeals to authority people are laying all their faith in what he says, instead of their faith in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. If there was a fall out, people testimonies are at stake. I'm sure Meldrum is a great guy and has real good intentions but honestly what he is doing can hurt a lot of people. Why do you think anti's are eating this up. They know where Meldrum succeeds they do also. You can find them wringing their hands on RFM, Signature Books, and other known sites hostile to the church. waiting for the fallout with arms wide open.

[livy111us]

I don't think that FAIR's criticism of Mr. Meldrum's work is innaccurate, but I do think that their level of scrutiny is inconsistent. I've never seen them scrutinize works that agree with scripture and popular LDS theories no matter how unfounded in actual science they are.

In any case, that's just my 2 cents.

I think they look at it as that A LOT of people are being duped by his theory that are not based on fact. Take for example DNA. If there were members who believed that the BOM happened in the Great Lakes region, that Joseph Smith taught it, It's revealed doctrine, Science supports it and so do our scriptures, and then began to research these things and found out that they don't support a North American setting at all, *may* have an effect on their faith. If they believe something to be true, and then it all falls out from under them, they themselves may fall away as well. So it was more of a pre-emptive essay, as opposed of answering false information as it comes out. That way it may prevent some testimony problems in the future.

But, there is no revealed doctrine on the subject and it may very well have happened in North America. FAIR supports no theory. In fact, there are members of FAIR who believe it happened in North America as well. But one thing that is agreed on is, Meldrums methods. They don't like to see people decieved, no matter what the issue.

[Daniel]

I never said that FAIR is inaccurate, just inconsistent in what they scrutinize and to what level.

I misread your statement before I could correct and follow up you posted. My response to the inconsistancy part. http://www.lds.net/forums/253363-post20.htm

Edited September 4, 2008 by Daniel

[Moksha]

I never said that FAIR is inaccurate, just inconsistent in what they scrutinize and to what level.

Are you saying they never went after the Tapir Hypothesis the same way?

When you have a pet theory that you have speculated long and hard about, that seems to fit sans evidence, would you too not be inconsistent when another theory comes along and upsets your applecart?

[DigitalShadow]

I think they look at it as that A LOT of people are being duped by his theory that are not based on fact. Take for example DNA. If there were members who believed that the BOM happened in the Great Lakes region, that Joseph Smith taught it, It's revealed doctrine, Science supports it and so do our scriptures, and then began to research these things and found out that they don't support a North American setting at all, *may* have an effect on their faith. If they believe something to be true, and then it all falls out from under them, they themselves may fall away as well. So it was more of a pre-emptive essay, as opposed of answering false information as it comes out. That way it may prevent some testimony problems in the future.

But, there is no revealed doctrine on the subject and it may very well have happened in North America. FAIR supports no theory. In fact, there are members of FAIR who believe it happened in North America as well. But one thing that is agreed on is, Meldrums methods. They don't like to see people decieved, no matter what the issue.

Do you think that FAIR would have behaved exactly the same if Rod had used the same methods and made the same unfounded claims about DNA evidence suggesting the BoM happened in Central or South America?

[DigitalShadow]

Are you saying they never went after the Tapir Hypothesis the same way?

When you have a pet theory that you have speculated long and hard about, that seems to fit sans evidence, would you too not be inconsistent when another theory comes along and upsets your applecart?

I wouldn't have a long speculated about theory sans evidence