Tempted To Get Into Futile Debates About Religion

[MormonGirl02]

Hi everyone. I was at a neighbor's apartment earlier and one of my other neighbors was there as well. They were talking about religion. Anyway, I was tempted to introduce the Mormon view of the topics in to the conversation but it would have been futile as both of my neighbors are fundamentalist Christians and the one would vehemently try to debunk what I say no matter how convincing I am. It is futile to debate with her. The other would be more open to what I had to say but would ultimately reject it, especially if she found out that I am a Mormon. So, I have two options in a case like this: agree with what they say so as to appear not to disagree and get in a futile debate or debate them with no chance of winning the debate which would probably be more of an argument than a debate anyway. What option should I have chose or should choose in the future?

[BenRaines]

For the spirit to testify to someone of the truths shared they must have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. If those are not present then no amount of testifying will do any good.

Ben Raines

[Wingnut]

For someone to eventually come to agree with you or receive witness from the Spirit, the Spirit must be present, regardless of how convincing you are.

[jimuk]

For someone to eventually come to agree with you or receive witness from the Spirit, the Spirit must be present, regardless of how convincing you are.

Wingnut you are so right there about the spirit being present. A while back i was walking back from my local shop, i passed some Jehovah witnesses knocking on doors, i got to my house and thought " right i am gonna be ready for these guys " there was no spirit present, i was feeling so full of myself, really wanting these guys to knock.

Well i gets the knock on the door " great "and i was there very quickly with little bit of arrogance.

Well these guys proceeded to walk all over me, i couldent say nothing, they had the answers to anything i said, they had me stumped so to speak.

Yes because of my arrogance, the spirit was not with me, i felt nothing but alone in my battle, and believe me it did feel like a battle, i was so glad/relieved when it was all over.

I Would not take on these guys on my own again believe you me.

All i could do after was to pray and ask forgiveness of heavenly father for the way i tried to take up arms to these very dedicated guys. I know he forgave me because i felt the warmth of his love enveloping me straight away, just like any loving father would do after showing their children a hard lesson in love and kindness towards all mankind.

[richlittell]

I happened to come across this scripture right before I read this post.

Proverbs 23

9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

[richlittell]

It is also funny that I was thinking of starting a post on how to handle these situations, that is, in a case where we engage people who are more concerned about trying to discredit the church or our doctrine rather than having a sincere desire for an LDS viewpoint. There are a lot of people who are just like that Pharisees of Christ's time whose objective is to ask seemingly sincere questions to force us to take a position that they are already prepared to thrash.

Here are my two cents.

1. Engage all inquiries, in the beginning, as if they are sincere.

2. Answer any seemingly sincere objections as best you can.

3. If within a few exchanges it seems obvious they are not sincere in searching out an LDS viewpoint, simply stop all communications on that topic/issue. This is hard to do since you have already invested your time in the matter. (I don't mean cut off all communication or relations, that is an issue left to the broader picture of your overall relationship.)

4. Swallow your pride, don't have that "one more engagement" to try to save face if the insincere party has caught you in his/her trap (some of these people are pretty skilled). And don't try to one-up them, it just leads to further trouble.

5. Rely on the Spirit to direct you to know of the other party's sincerity/insincerity.

6. Keep your cool, stay away from insults and sarcasm (this is a tough one for me). It doesn't add anything to the debate and no one "wins."

7. If there is more than one party and one seems interested while the other does not, consider whether or not this kind of engagement is really productive for the interested individual. If it is, continue, if not (and they usually are not), save it for another day.

Never feel bad about walking away from a debate that seems to be going no where. You are not dishonoring the gospel or failing in your missionary duties. These people know where to go to get information about the church.

Edited September 14, 2008 by richlittell

[Moksha]

I think internet forums where personal relationships of a real life nature cannot be damaged, are the best for such debates. Sometimes in this manner, you can even develop friendships with those you disagree with.

[Elphaba]

Hi everyone. I was at a neighbor's apartment earlier and one of my other neighbors was there as well. They were talking about religion. Anyway, I was tempted to introduce the Mormon view of the topics in to the conversation but it would have been futile as both of my neighbors are fundamentalist Christians and the one would vehemently try to debunk what I say no matter how convincing I am. It is futile to debate with her. The other would be more open to what I had to say but would ultimately reject it, especially if she found out that I am a Mormon. So, I have two options in a case like this: agree with what they say so as to appear not to disagree and get in a futile debate or debate them with no chance of winning the debate which would probably be more of an argument than a debate anyway. What option should I have chose or should choose in the future?

You're not obligated to talk to anyone about anything, if you don't want to. You get to decide what to say or not say.

In other words, in this situation, if they had asked your opinion, you could have said you respect their beliefs, but you believe something differently. And then tell them you'd rather not discuss your beliefs with them. Be honest and up front.

Of course, if you choose to discuss your beliefs with them, that is fine too, as long as it is your choice, and not a reaction to manipulation. Or, perhaps your choice could be to let try them manipulate you. Again, that is your choice to make.

I know once I learned to be assertive about these things, and truthful about my choices, I felt better about myself. I felt more honest when I stopped trying to come up with excuses so as not to hurt another's feelings. I was never dismissive or belittling, but did stand up for myself and my boundaries, and if appropriate, would tell the person why.

Elphaba

[Wingnut]

3. If within a few exchanges it seems obvious they are not sincere in searching out an LDS viewpoint, simply stop all communications. This is hard to do since you have already invested your time in the matter.

Rich, I mostly agreed with the points you laid out, but I had a question about this one. I don't know if I'm begin too literal in my interpretation, or if this is how you intended it, but when you say "stop all communications," do you mean ALL communications, or just all communications regarding the Church/doctrine/etc.? If you mean ALL communications, I firmly disagree with it, especially in the case of family or a long-time friend. Even outside of those two seemingly obvious examples, it gives the idea that "Mormons are only out to convert" and "Don't become friends with a Mormon because they'll only try to baptize you." And if we cut off all communication with someone because they don't like what we have to share about the Church, isn't that the message we give?

If you mean ending conversations about the Church (which, in your example, end up contentious), then I agree. As long as you remain open to future questions and opportunities.

[MormonGirl02]

Thank you everyone for your advice. Your advice is helpful. I appreciate it. :)

[countrygirl66]

my thoughts for 2 cents

In those situations I just say nothing about religion unless asked. Usually if I just work on the friendship eventually they will ask me and we can agree to disagree. I hate arguments over religion I feel like if you are arguing then the spirit can't be there anyways. I have found that if I have a great respect for someone elses religion they eventually will for mine too. If I get backed into a corner I am honest in my beleifs and tell them that religion is a matter of the mind, heart and spirit, so we each have to follow what that tells us. Hope this helps.

[prisonchaplain]

Thank you everyone for your advice. Your advice is helpful. I appreciate it. :)

My 2-cents...if these two are your friends, and they do not know that you are LDS, no need to debate. However, to avoid on-going awkwardness, just tell them, "By the way, I am LDS." You'll find out what kind of friends you have without spending hours listening to uncomfortable conversation. Then again, you might lose your friends. But, if you believe that your faith is true...

[WANDERER]

When in situations where I feel the only thing I can contribute to a discussion is conflict...and they're my friends or I'm being friendly...I just ask questions. That way I contribute to the discussion and show that I value their beliefs etc because they are important to them. I don't put them under seige by asking them questions that are going to upset them or make them feel stressed.

But you know, sometimes you can't help yourself, you care...so...I may ask a question that I think will help direct their thinking towards a solution or more thought on the topic. If it was out of sync with where they are they either ignore it or interpret it differently. If they look a bit non-plussed I change the topic or repeat the views partially that I do agree with...cause I don't want them to think I'm attacking what is important to them *reinforce what is common between us type thingy*.

Sooner or later they may directly say what they guess already...you don't think the same way they do about it...and the answer to that is no, but I understand how they feel about it.

If you enter into a conversation and there is going to be debate or conflict..well...it all depends on the level of trust and respect you have built with that person how they respond to that..whether the agree to disagree factor is there. And if you are going to plunk them into a conflict situation...is it helpful or well-intentioned? Are you just telling them stuff they don't want to or are not ready to hear...are you going to dip your feet into the water and test to see how receptive they are to talking about it first? It's not about winning or losing...it's about caring about people.

Having a one-way discussion on what you believe isn't really a conversation...but I understand the temptation particularly if you're getting a bit of an ear-battering on stuff that conflicts with your values. Probably best to sit-it-out. You could also look at it another way...listening in on conversations like this may give you insight ...this may not be the opportunity you are preparing for ; )

Edited September 14, 2008 by WANDERER

[richlittell]

Rich, I mostly agreed with the points you laid out, but I had a question about this one. I don't know if I'm begin too literal in my interpretation, or if this is how you intended it, but when you say "stop all communications," do you mean ALL communications, or just all communications regarding the Church/doctrine/etc.? If you mean ALL communications, I firmly disagree with it, especially in the case of family or a long-time friend. Even outside of those two seemingly obvious examples, it gives the idea that "Mormons are only out to convert" and "Don't become friends with a Mormon because they'll only try to baptize you." And if we cut off all communication with someone because they don't like what we have to share about the Church, isn't that the message we give?

If you mean ending conversations about the Church (which, in your example, end up contentious), then I agree. As long as you remain open to future questions and opportunities.

Yeah, I should have clarified, I only mean on that point of Doctrine. In fact, if some semblance of sincerity remains, you could move on to another gospel topic and see how that goes, but if after a couple of topics things don't improve, then just tell them you'd rather not debate your faith with them. AND by all means befriend them to the end of your days if you like, there may be plenty of other things you share in common, and even if not, sometimes you just like to be friends with someone. I have plenty of non-Mormon friends.

Thanks for clarifying that. I may go back and edit that.

[unixknight]

Debating religion can be fun if you're doing it with someone who's in it for the same reason.

For example, a very close friend of mine is from Baptist roots and we debate for fun but neither of us is trying to convert the other nor do we take it personally when we disagree.

Debating to convert is an automatic fail. Have you ever been with the Missionaries when they go on visits? I have, and I noticed something. They don't engage in debates, and they don't go into deep and minute detail into doctrinal matters. They simply teach in the simplest possible terms. That's all they do. When people convert, it's because the Holy Spirit testifies to them that what they're hearing is the truth, and changes their heart. In a way, it doesn't even really matter exactly what is said. When a person is ready, the Spirit can use the testimony regardless of the specifics to show them the truth.

When people aren't ready, they're not ready. When they are, the Spirit will guide them.