Who do you address your prayers to?

[abqfriend]

You May wish to post this poll in another section of the board - Christian Beliefs section-to see what the larger membership may say. Right now it is only asking mostly the LDS members for their opinion which I would assume would be prayers to the Heavenly Father if I understand the LDS Faith tradition.

I pray largely to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I pray in a different way to the Blessed Virgin Mary and The Saints.

-Carol

[Guest tomk]

MOE I loved the way you explained it. It made alot of sense.

I always pray to Heavenly Father, always but if I feel a need to draw near to my Saviour or if I'm feeling alone I may write a letter directly to my Saviour in my journal.

Is it ok to do this or should write to Heavenly Father in my journal too?

There is no "WRONG WAY" to go about connecting with God. It is the desire for the relationship that He cares about, not proper etiquette.

I do the same thing. I write my prayers to Jesus in my journal:

Not Left Comfortless: Counseling with the Lord in Writing

If you think about the scriptures -- what are they? Are they not the "journals" of righteous men and women? Are they not written conversations between God and man? This practice is not just for prophets and apostles!! They are our examples, including following their examples of keeping a journal, which we now know as the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price.

[NateHowe]

Elder Oaks has something to say on the subject: LDS.org - New Era Article - The Special Language of Prayer

[WANDERER]

Thanks Carol...I realise now LOL. But I think the thread has turned into a very thoughtful discussion on how we should pray......which is great : ) Whether LDS or not...everyone can contribute to a discussion on that.

Nate...the explanation was great.

Unfortuneately it took me a very long time to go from rote learned prayers (not a whole lot...looked up in the library and Bible, and prayers I had heard and repeated as a matter of fact) to being able to think of a prayer for myself and realise this was acceptable as a kid ...my parents believed in allowing me to find out for myself on all matters of religion. And yes, I used thees and thous and thines, because King James was all I had...and... I asked God for a lot of help.

But thankyou for the link.

Edited September 17, 2008 by WANDERER

[richlittell]

Elder Oaks has something to say on the subject: LDS.org - New Era Article - The Special Language of Prayer

and I liked this quote form the article

Scholarship can contradict mortal explanations, but it cannot rescind divine commands or inspired counsel. In our day the words thee, thou, thy, and thine are suitable for the language of prayer, not because of how they were used anciently, but because they are currently obsolete in common English discourse. Being unused in everyday communications, they are now available as a distinctive form of address in English, appropriate to symbolize respect, closeness, and reverence for the one being addressed.

[Guest tomk]

Although I eschewed the "religious use" of THEE, THY, THINE in previous posts, were you privy to my personal prayers, you'd find me using them. But not out of propriety, but genuine respect, reverence and love, as Elder Oaks counsels. We don't use these expressions to muster these qualities. We use these expressions because they flow naturally from a close relationship.

He is our Father. We are His children. It is impossible to imagine that He would reject any attempt at communication with Him for any reason. He watches over and protects all of His children...even those who go about trying to destroy. He is willing to accept their repentance and have them come home.

It is also impossible to imagine that any attempt to speak directly to His Son, Jesus Christ, would be looked upon with jealousy or disdain or any other imagined offense we might think Heavenly Father to be capable of. Such pettiness is not a part of His character. They are One. To speak to One is to speak to the Other.

Praying to the Father THROUGH the Son is a pattern of prayer intended to TEACH US something about the nature of power to overcome this world and the evil that is found therein. Father is the Source. Jesus acknowledged this truth over and over and over again, yet many people miss it. I missed it for most of my life. Father is the Source. It was Father who powered the Son, who powered the Son's Atonement. Jesus sought the Father's strength during Gethsemane. THINK ABOUT THAT. :) Jesus cried from the cross, "Father, Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?" Again .... not to "show off" that He had tread the wine press alone, but to TEACH US. Everything that left Christ's mouth was to teach us about Father, and to encourage us to lean upon Father for strength and support. If the Son expressed such a need, in order to teach us, then how much more so must we need Father's strength!

======================

Brigham Young expressed a beautiful invitation to know the Savior in the following words:

“… the greatest and most important of all requirements of our Father in Heaven and of his Son Jesus Christ. … is to believe in Jesus Christ, confess him, seek him, cling to him, make friends with him. Take a course to open a communication with your Elder Brother or file-leader—our Savior.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 339.)

taken from:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - What It Means to Know Christ

"open a communication with your Elder Brother or file-leader—our Savior"

HOW CAN WE COMMUNICATE WITH THE SON IF WE CAN NEVER TALK TO HIM? IF WE CAN ONLY TALK TO FATHER, NEVER TO THE SON?

Well, the answer is ... we CAN speak directly with Jesus.

I don't do this in my public prayers. But in my personal prayers, and in my journal, I am seeking and speaking directly with JESUS. Often I find Jesus leading me to the Father. Often I find my conversations with Jesus turning into conversations with the Father as I find Jesus DOING what He promises ... to lead us to the Father, even as the Holy Ghost brings us to Christ.

.

Edited September 17, 2008 by tomk

[Vort]

Knowest us thence that the varlet who doth not speaketh thy tongue of thy most noble King James doth verily commiteth an error most grievious. For sooth that thine prayers be recieveth not for thy common future tongue beith both vulgar and not pleasingeth to thine ear.

It is true that you ought to be able to speak the language before using it. If your attempts come out like Moksha's garbled, grammar-free nonsense above, then you need to pray in words you can actually use to express meaning.

But with a bit of practice, using "thou" instead of "you" (subject), "thee" instead of "you" (object), "thy" instead of "your", and "thine" instead of "yours" just isn't that hard.

The belief that archaic language is inherently holier has a huge pretend factor at its core.

Does the belief that we should follow our leaders' counsel also have "a huge pretend factor"? Because we have been counseled very specifically to practice using such "archaic" language in our prayers.

Our thoughts to God's thoughts is one without the medium of sound.

Without sound, perhaps, but not without words. People with any degree of linguistic ability think in terms of language, not merely in images.

This discussion of which form of speech to use when praying is largely cultural. In the Slavic areas of the world (at least in Ukraine and Russia), the formal forms of speech are never used. All prayers are given on the familiar. And in those cultures, if a person were to speak to God using the formal, it would be considered very odd and a sign that the person felt exceptionally estranged from God--perhaps even severely depressed.

"Thou" is the familiar, second-person singular form in English. "You" was considered the "royal" usage, just as a king would refer to himself as "We".

Edited September 17, 2008 by Vort
Combining posts...

[Vort]

The belief that archaic language is inherently holier has a huge pretend factor at its core.

Does the belief that we should follow our leaders' counsel also have "a huge pretend factor"? Because we have been counseled very specifically to practice using such "archaic" language in our prayers.

Our thoughts to God's thoughts is one without the medium of sound.

Without sound, perhaps, but not without words. People with any degree of linguistic ability think in terms of language, not merely in images.

[Vort]

This discussion of which form of speech to use when praying is largely cultural. In the Slavic areas of the world (at least in Ukraine and Russia), the formal forms of speech are never used. All prayers are given on the familiar. And in those cultures, if a person were to speak to God using the formal, it would be considered very odd and a sign that the person felt exceptionally estranged from God--perhaps even severely depressed.

"Thou" is the familiar, second-person singular form in English. "You" was considered the "royal" usage, just as a king would refer to himself as "We".

[MarginOfError]

"Thou" is the familiar, second-person singular form in English. "You" was considered the "royal" usage, just as a king would refer to himself as "We".

I will admit to having no knowledge of English language structure...at least not in any form than colloquial in the modern era. My comments were intended toward current usage of the forms, which have been stated by Church leadership to denote reverence and respect. It appears then, that colloquially, we currently use Thou and You in the complete opposite manner in which they were perceived by the original linguists.

Thanks for the heads up on that, though. I do find that nugget quite interesting.

[Vort]

I will admit to having no knowledge of English language structure...at least not in any form than colloquial in the modern era. My comments were intended toward current usage of the forms, which have been stated by Church leadership to denote reverence and respect. It appears then, that colloquially, we currently use Thou and You in the complete opposite manner in which they were perceived by the original linguists.

Not quite. In Elder Oaks' recent General Conference talk on the language of prayer, helpfully referenced by someone on the previous page, he said:

In our day the words thee, thou, thy, and thine are suitable for the language of prayer, not because of how they were used anciently, but because they are currently obsolete in common English discourse. Being unused in everyday communications, they are now available as a distinctive form of address in English, appropriate to symbolize respect, closeness, and reverence for the one being addressed.

Note that Elder Oaks includes intimacy ("closeness") as a reason for using these pronouns.

[MarginOfError]

Crap...i've been foiled. I didn't catch that before. Thanks.

[WANDERER]

Sorry...I'm afraid that I'm just going to have to agree to disagree on this one...but that doesn't mean that I can't respect the point of view of Elder Oaks and the perspective of those of the LDS faith.

Vort...we've already had a discussion about language and semantics before...I recall it well...let me refresh your memory...whoremongers and whores remember. Now I'm a little confused about your perspective: I believe you advocated that precise language could not be offensive.

Edited September 17, 2008 by WANDERER

[Moksha]

Without sound, perhaps, but not without words. People with any degree of linguistic ability think in terms of language, not merely in images.

Most all our thoughts are not verbalized. We could hardly function if we had to subvocalize everything. I think the expression that God knows what is in our hearts, or in our thoughts to me more precise, is applicable here. Words do not even translate well between one language to the next, but ideas are much more universal.

Sound as a medium of transmission is so very limited in range. We could be standing a mere 200 feet away from each other and not carry on a conversation. So how does God do it? If not by sound, then why use a burdensome transmission and non-universal communication mode such as language, when God knows what is in our heart. Can we not all pray without speaking, for surely God knows the prayers of the mute?

[Vort]

Vort...we've already had a discussion about language and semantics before...I recall it well...let me refresh your memory...whoremongers and whores remember. Now I'm a little confused about your perspective: I believe you advocated that precise language could not be offensive.

I don't understand what you're talking about, Wanderer. I see at least two items of confusion in what you wrote above:

1. "we've already had a discussion about language and semantics before [...] whoremongers and whores" I also recall this particular conversation, but I'm at a loss to understand how you're relating it to the present thread.

2. "I believe you advocated that precise language could not be offensive." Why would I advocate such an absurd position? Offensive language is offensive, whether it's precise or not. My argument was never that "precise language could not be offensive"; rather, I believed that the term "whore" was a scriptural term of sufficient clarity, meaning, and established usage that taking offense at its use was silly.

[a-train]

When a man prays: "Father in Heaven", is he not addressing the Eternal Father of heaven and earth?

Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else. - Amulek to Zeezrom (Alma 11:39-40)

[WANDERER]

Vort..ya can't call someone silly because they don't believe what you do about about using such words...Silly : ) I believe foolish would be a better KJ choice and have more scriptural authority...or perhaps none...

Actually the question is relevant to me...because we have pronouns of sufficient clarity and expression to use when we talk with God... so taking offense at using them seems equally incomprehensible to me. What the characteristics of respectful language are seems quite on topic,

in my humble opinion LOL

when discussing the use of formalised prayer.

What other aspects of prayer are formalised...is there a sense that KJV words other than thee and thou are also respectful...?

Edited September 18, 2008 by WANDERER

[Vort]

Vort..ya can't call someone silly because they don't believe what you do about about using such words...Silly : )

Actually, I said that taking offense was silly, not that the people who took offense were silly.

I believe foolish would be a better KJ choice and have more scriptural authority...or perhaps none...

But "foolish" would have been too strong a word, causing needless offense. (By comparison, "whore" is a synonym for "prostitute", and thus is not too strong a word to use to describe a prostitute.)

Actually the question is relevant to me...because we have pronouns of sufficient clarity and expression to use when we talk with God... so taking offense at using them seems equally incomprehensible to me.

I don't know of anyone who has taken offense at using "you", "your", and "yours" when praying rather than "thou", "thee", "thy", and "thine". On the contrary, we have been taught the opposite: That prayer is good, and that praying in any way is better than not praying. But we have also been taught that, at some point in our developing prayer relationship with God, we English speakers would do well to implement the aforementioned pronouns.

What the characteristics of respectful language are seems quite on topic,

in my humble opinion LOL

when discussing the use of formalised prayer.

What other aspects of prayer are formalised...is there a sense that KJV words other than thee and thou are also respectful...?

Not sure what you mean by "formalised prayer". A prayer, like a letter or a telephone conversation, has a certain overall structure: We address God, we talk to him, we offer our prayer in the name of his Son, and we end (traditionally by saying "amen"). But in LDS theology, other than the gross structure as I outlined above, there are exceedingly few "formalized" prayers, and those that exist are without exception ordinance prayers.

[Vort]

When a man prays: "Father in Heaven", is he not addressing the Eternal Father of heaven and earth?

Not in the sense you provide with the Book of Mormon quote. The Lord himself has instructed us to pray to the Father, as have many other latter-day prophets. As the record in 3 Nephi makes clear, if Christ is physically standing before us, it is appropriate to pray to him. Otherwise, our prayers are addressed solely to the Father, and not to the Son.

[WANDERER]

Scolding abstract nouns: BAD decision, SILLY offence, WRONG choice...is it really all that successful at depersonalising a judgement.

What should the language of prayer sound like?

Edited September 18, 2008 by WANDERER

[HoosierGuy]

Scolding abstract nouns: BAD decision, SILLY offence, WRONG choice...is it really all that successful at depersonalising a judgement.

What should the language of prayer sound like?

When you pray, pray as if Heavenly Father is right above your head. Or pray as if Jesus is right above your head and Father is right above him.

When I began praying back in December, I had more long talks with Father than prayers. I've gotten away from that but I need to get back t those long talks/prayers. I was in the car today and said a prayer while driving - it was a good seven or eight minute talk/prayer to Heavenly Father. I feel better after I have those long talk/prayers.

What should the language of prayer sound like? It should sound like your soul.

[HoosierGuy]

Not in the sense you provide with the Book of Mormon quote. The Lord himself has instructed us to pray to the Father, as have many other latter-day prophets. As the record in 3 Nephi makes clear, if Christ is physically standing before us, it is appropriate to pray to him. Otherwise, our prayers are addressed solely to the Father, and not to the Son.

What Is Prayer?

Prayer is a sincere, heartfelt talk with our Heavenly Father. We should pray to God and to no one else. We do not pray to any other being or to anything made by man or God (see Exodus 20:3-5).

Gospel Principles