Swaying With The Tides of Popular Opinion Today

[a-train]

Just my own $0.02...

Two cents: What is left of the U.S. dollar.

[Prodigal_Son]

Two cents: What is left of the U.S. dollar.

Haha. You rounded up! :lol:

[Elphaba]

but I think we need to finish our current engagements . . . .

How do you define "finish our current engagements?

In other words, what specifically would have to happen that would clearly show we had "finish[ed] our engagements"?

Elphaba

[Prodigal_Son]

How do you define "finish our current engagements?

In other words, what specifically would have to happen that would clearly show we had "finish[ed] our engagements"?

Elphaba

Tidy things up in Iraq, try to come to some form of completion in Afghanistan. Not necessarily a quick thing, but we don't need to be starting in on Iran, Russia, etc in our current anemic state. As far as what would have to happen: we set them up with their own democratic infrastructure, make sure they're equipped for the myriad bumps in the road, and walk away.

I also think having 75,000 active troops in Germany is just ridiculous, and having troops in 131 countries is also idiotic...

Edited September 19, 2008 by Prodigal_Son

[a-train]

There is a simple, peaceful, inexpensive, and sound solution: come home. I have yet to see a single viable reason for our troops to remain nor for the permanent base we are building there.

-a-train

[Prodigal_Son]

There is a simple, peaceful, inexpensive, and sound solution: come home. I have yet to see a single viable reason for our troops to remain nor for the permanent base we are building there.

-a-train

If we walk away before they can withstand an implosion, then a lot of good men and women died in vain. Maybe we're to that point, maybe we're not. There's no way for us to know with the media and political machine's inability to speak truths...

[rastler00]

If we walk away before they can withstand an implosion, then a lot of good men and women died in vain. Maybe we're to that point, maybe we're not. There's no way for us to know with the media and political machine's inability to speak truths...

So if everybodies lying what is the answer? Stay there forever?

[Prodigal_Son]

So if everybodies lying what is the answer? Stay there forever?

Nah. Start the withdrawal as soon as reasonable. Incrementally cut back and see how things stand. Not exactly rocket science.

The truth is out there being told somewhere... there's just no easy way to determine which "lo here" is the honest one.

[rameumptom]

I am beginning to believe more and more in Pres Washington's determination we not become encumbered with entangling alliances. Perhaps we should withdraw our military from around most of the world for 5 years while we focus on our own problems: like homeland security and immigration.

Let the world manage itself for a while, especially Europe, the Arab states and Eastern Asia.

[Prodigal_Son]

I am beginning to believe more and more in Pres Washington's determination we not become encumbered with entangling alliances. Perhaps we should withdraw our military from around most of the world for 5 years while we focus on our own problems: like homeland security and immigration.

Let the world manage itself for a while, especially Europe, the Arab states and Eastern Asia.

Sounds good to me. We can't pull folks up out of the gutter when we're still standing in it.

[Hemidakota]

Tragic events of 911, how soon they forget, does remind me of the stories the Prophet Nephi wrote of the prideful and historically forgetting Nephites, which took only five-years before falling into another apostasy [3rd Nephi]. How soon we forget, as a nation, major humbling events of our past.

Islander : "Stupidity is more and more resembling a contagious airborne disease than a self inflicted condition. Oh, brother." I think so...including our national televised news media, which rather spend more time with lesser important events of the day - Brittney Spears. - than real news. :)

[Moksha]

Sounds good to me. We can't pull folks up out of the gutter when we're still standing in it.

Besides, sooner or later we need to acknowledge that this hornswoggled war is bankrupting us.

[a-train]

The main body of those upholding the claim that a sudden withdrawal would amount to a major catastrophe is the same group that claimed WMD's, an easy and speedy victory, and the oil will fund it all. I didn't believe them then, and I don't now.

See for yourself:

-a-train

Edited September 20, 2008 by a-train

[Prodigal_Son]

The main body of those upholding the claim that a sudden withdrawal would amount to a major catastrophe is the same group that claimed WMD's, an easy and speedy victory, and the oil will fund it all. I didn't believe them then, and I don't now.

I don't, as a civilian, begin to THINK that I know what our military knows. I don't think any of us over here have a true concept of what's going on over there. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I also believe that you're passing judgment without necessary information. You may very well be right, but you're just speculating like everyone else. You're just trying to piece together the media's puzzle pieces and come to some uninformed decision.

I'd love to see our troops come home, though not at the price of a failure. And since we have NO choice but to trust folks like General Petraeus to call those shots.... well, talk is cheap.

[a-train]

I don't, as a civilian, begin to THINK that I know what our military knows. I don't think any of us over here have a true concept of what's going on over there. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I also believe that you're passing judgment without necessary information. You may very well be right, but you're just speculating like everyone else. You're just trying to piece together the media's puzzle pieces and come to some uninformed decision.

I'd love to see our troops come home, though not at the price of a failure. And since we have NO choice but to trust folks like General Petraeus to call those shots.... well, talk is cheap.

General Petraeus does NOT make decisions about whether or not this nation goes to war, Congress does. Nothing our military has done has been wrong. The military is not the problem. The problem is U.S. foreign policy. The problem is the policy of interventionism, the policy of preventionism, the policy of occupation, the policy of policing the world.

-a-train

[Prodigal_Son]

General Petraeus does NOT make decisions about whether or not this nation goes to war, Congress does. Nothing our military has done has been wrong. The military is not the problem. The problem is U.S. foreign policy. The problem is the policy of interventionism, the policy of preventionism, the policy of occupation, the policy of policing the world.

-a-train

I don't disagree with you. My point was simply that, regardless of how we got there, it's up to men like him to safely disentangle us at the appropriate time.

[Elphaba]

Tidy things up in Iraq. . . .

The US will never “tidy things up” in Iraq.

I’m not really sure what you actually mean by “tidy up.” When I see those words, I think of tying up loose ends. But there are no loose ends in Iraq.

All you can see in much of Baghdad anymore are 12-foot high concrete walls, creating ghettos for Sunni and Shi’ite civilians.

The surge did not lower the number of deaths as the Bush administration would have us believe. It was ethnic cleansing, emptying Sunni neighborhoods of its inhabitants. Additionally, some 2 million Iraqis are displaced within Iraq, while 2 million more have sought refuge in neighboring Syria and Jordan. Previously religiously mixed neighborhoods of Baghdad have become homogenized Sunni or Shi'ite Muslim enclaves.

I could go on and on, but these two videos explain what I am talking better than I can. But it certainly isn’t the comprehensive picture.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/mar/18/baghdads.killing.fields

http://inlovewithiraq.blogspot.com/

As far as what would have to happen: we set them up with their own democratic infrastructure,

There will never be a democratic anything in Iraq. There may be elections, but those who are elected do not believe in democracy. They believe in radical Islam, which is the antithesis of democracy.

For example, Moqttada Al-Sader won 25 seats in Parliament, after democracy was introduced into Iraq by the US. His SAS ( the Mahdi Army) managed to strengthen its grip on the entire nation, including the support of thousands of Iraqi civilians, as they see the Mahdi as a haven against the violence, etc.,

In other words, if they become part of the army, they will not be a victim of the army, as they know Al-Sader is going to be a dominant force in Iraq whether America is there or not.

The Iraqis are Muslims, and do not want a secular government. They want their constitution to reflect the laws of Islam, which is the direct opposite of democracy.

In fact, Iraqis want the law of Sharia included in their constitution. The law of Sharia is fundamental to Islam, and is what makes the horrific “honour killings” possible. It gives almost every Muslim man the right to punish any Muslim woman any way he sees fit.

There are no “bumps” in the road: there is unspeakable bloodshed, especially of the Iraqi civilians. And it is not the soldiers’ faults--it is the policies of the Bush administration, who refused to listen to military advisors from the very beginning.

There are ancient rivalries which we now know the Bush cabal purposely ignored, even when experts on Iraq and Islam tried to warn them. Even I knew the difference between the Sunni and the Shi‘ia, that, if unleashed, would result in horrific bloodshed, because that is how much they hate each other

I like to go to the source to understand what is happening in Iraq, and that is the Iraqis themselves. Many of them write blogs about what is going on, a majority of them who no longer live in Iraq, but still have family inside. Their terror for their families, and their heartbreak for their country, gives a much better picture of the reality of the Iraqi’s lives, and how much they hate us now than does any American news cast.

try to come to some form of completion in Afghanistan.

There will never be a completion in Afghanistan. The Taliban is back, and will always be back. We can kill them, but that only inflames them, and they resurge with more members, and even worse, more fanaticism, than ever.

There are fragile solutions to some of the above; for example, nothing the US does in the Middle East will have any effect whatsoever unless a Palestinian state is created. There is too much hatred of the west amongst the Arab populations, and we can send our soldiers into danger to “free” as many countries there as we want, and it won’t mean spit.

However, I personally think that even if a Palestinian state was created, it is probably too late.

I am very conflicted about having our soldiers leave, as I do believe they protect a significant number of civilians. But these same civilians don’t want us there. They hate us for what we’ve done to their country. In fact, numerous blogs written by Iraqi citizens insist it was better under Saddam.

Of course there are innumerable Muslims who want our help to bring peace to their brothers and sisters in the Middle East. But even they see our troops carrying guns into their holy cities, and are angered by it.

Even then, I wish it were as simplistic as I've described in this post. It's so so much worse.

I agree with a-train. We need to get out, and by get out, we get out completely. But this isn’t going to happen. Bush and Maliki have already signed agreements that an American presence will be permanently based in Baghdad. The US has built a huge “embassy” that will house both civilian and military personnel. So much for “we’re going to leave as soon as the Iraqi people can take over.”

Elphaba

[a-train]

I don't disagree with you. My point was simply that, regardless of how we got there, it's up to men like him to safely disentangle us at the appropriate time.

Certainly. The appropriate time has come and has been here since President Bush declared: "Mission Accomplished" on 01 May 2003. That was the end of the war. Beyond that we have been engaged in world policing, nation building, and occupation.

Here is the man we elected in 2000:

What happened?

-a-train

[Elphaba]

Cheney tells the truth: Invading Iraq would be a quagmire. Unfortunately, this was in 1993 after the Gulf war.

What happened, indeed.

Elphaba

[Maya]

I have heard they did a poll recently in various parts of the world about who the people think was responsible for the attacks on September 11th. In one nation 33 percent of the people polled believed the United States government was responsible for the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon (it was not people polled inside the U.S.A.). I was astounded that anyone could be blown about by such false information.

My son came home from school. They had discussed that in School and loooks like they all believe that USA did it themselves!

A-Train has some good points here. Around here many are beeing irritated about USA playing the world police. They believe USA entered Iraq ONLY because of oil! Around here also many take americans as arrogant....

The tought of USA solders beeing everywhere to help is a VERY good tought....

Finland is a country in between east and west. Finland had been concured by east and west every 5-10 years..... In the last war Finland was wredicted to be on the loosers side... why?!

1918 December 6th Finland declared to be independent! Russia did not like it and rolled in the country. The winter war began. It was down to -30 often and many frose of their fingers or toas....

Where would finnish send their men to get good wartraining? Russia, who owed them or wanted to ow them? USA (too far, besides they were on Russians side.) Finland had already been given to Russia as a trofie. The winning parties delt the world as they wished...

The only possibility was Germany, as Sweden did not want any part of the war. This gave Finland the only chanse to be a free country to join arms with Gernmany. Where was USA??! A little country was attaced!

Training Finnish forces had its price and we had to allowe Germany to travell to the north through our country. On their way back to Germany they destroyed the whole northern Finland.

Finland got VERY high fines as a warcriminal! My grandparents together with everyone else donated even their wedding rings to gather enough gold to pay back as much as possible. Finlans was the only country that ever payed the fines in full!

Russia got the part of Finland where my father and many others, was born. Many tens of tousands of Carelians were moved from Carelia which now was Russian.

Finland managed even to fight the communists out of the country by themselves. Stil there is allowed to be a communist party, but that has never too much influence.

At the same time as Russia went in the Tchekoslovakia, the people living on the Russian boarder could hear the tanks on the other side... I believe the faith of Finland was haning on a thin thread. Putin in one of his speaches added Finland to russia....

Finish politics is a dans on a thin thread between east and west.

I am pretty sure if anyone knows anything about Finland they know that Finland was fighting on Germanys side, so they were bad and that Finland is communistic... both of those claims are false.

Sometimes I wonder, if my son would become a member of special forces in this country.... even though we are in Nato.... I am afraid it could be possible he would be ordered to fight against USA one day...who then would be on the right side?? Would there be any right side at all?? To me the ONLY side that is right is Gods side and that is LDS. I think all solders need to get advice from the profet, what side is the right side. But then again an american solder can not follow the profet, but has to follow the leaders of the country!

I think it would possibly be good if USA would get out of everywhere they are, for a while, and let people see what happens. There are so many things going wrong direction everywhere in the world now. The adversary is really taking the power everywhere. Like Pam said it all ends up to choosing the one that is a bit less evil...

[Prodigal_Son]

Elphaba: thanks for your lengthy post. I appreciate seeing your perspective. The same goes for A-train.

I still believe, however, that my point is being missed a bit. You both shared personal interpretations of data. I look at the data and have my own interpretations. Others bring yet more to the table.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that: we're all trying to see decisions made based on our own opinions and interpretations. And none of us have the requisite data to propose that our personal solution is worthy of sound adherence. There's nothing wrong with this, mind you. It's important that we all be able to think independently and have personal opinions on the matter... I just hope that you will concede, after making judgments, that: "that's what I believe, BASED ON WHAT I KNOW/SEE... BUT THERE MIGHT BE MORE HERE THAN I REALIZE, and I'm open to reassessing my belief according to those unknowns." Blind and unmoving mantras and beliefs are what make up a Proletariat.

Mailis: thanks for an outside perspective. It's nice to hear that not everyone out there thinks of Americans as arrogant, self-righteous pigs. I, too, would be very interested to see how the world coped without our influence out there. Maybe life would carry on - and we would find we can save billions and billions of tax dollars that are currently being consumed by our insatiable beast of war... Or, perhaps, folks out there would realize how needed we are - and quit painting us as the Wicked West. Who knows? If it actually were to happen, it'd be fascinating.

[a-train]

Another good video is this one:

President Bill Clinton signed the Iraqi Liberation Act long before George W. Bush was elected (if he really was elected of course) and was pushing for a MILITARY action for regime change in Iraq.

There is but one Republicrat party. It is controlled by the neoconservative movement which is making every effort to dupe America.

-a-train

[Elphaba]

Elphaba: thanks for your lengthy post. I appreciate seeing your perspective.

You're welcome. Thank you for the chance to discuss this.

I still believe, however, that my point is being missed a bit. You both shared personal interpretations of data. I look at the data and have my own interpretations. Others bring yet more to the table.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that: we're all trying to see decisions made based on our own opinions and interpretations. And none of us have the requisite data to propose that our personal solution is worthy of sound adherence. There's nothing wrong with this, mind you. It's important that we all be able to think independently and have personal opinions on the matter... I just hope that you will concede, after making judgments, that: "that's what I believe, BASED ON WHAT I KNOW/SEE... BUT THERE MIGHT BE MORE HERE THAN I REALIZE, and I'm open to reassessing my belief according to those unknowns."

I have re-read my post, and don't understand which part you think is my personal interpretation of the data. So it would help me if you would give me specifics, and then I could respond.

For example, do you question my comments about El Mahdi?

My comments about democracy in Iraq?

My comments about Sharia?

My comments about Afghanistan and the Taliban?

My comments about the hatred between Sunni and Shi'ia?

My comments about how they are now separated by 12-foot concrete walls?

My comments about a Palestinian state?

I have listed these comments separately hoping this will help you tell me exactly which ones you think are my personal interpretations. I can't respond to your "personal interpretation," definition, as it is too vague.

So, if you would please specify which comments you're referring to, I'll be happy to respond. (I realize they may not be the ones I outlined above.)

Blind and unmoving mantras and beliefs are what make up a Proletariat.

I could not agree more.

Elphaba

[Prodigal_Son]

Elphaba: I don't have a bone to pick with any of your points. All valid. I just mean that there are very many people with positive information that stands in opposition to some of those issues, as well. You're just choosing to discount those reports b/c it doesn't fit with the opinion you've formed.

The other thing that came to me as I considered your post, was that: just because an idea is unpopular (democracy in this case) doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue it. Christ's agenda wasn't real hip at the time, nor was Joseph Smith's. But right is right. Democracy is necessary for God's children to exercise their God-given agency. Hinckley declared it our duty to make that path as accessible to as many as we possibly could...

Again, I'm not saying your wrong... but I'm not saying you're right. We just don't have enough data from where we stand to truly grasp the big picture with accuracy...

[Elphaba]

Elphaba: I don't have a bone to pick with any of your points. All valid. I just mean that there are very many people with positive information that stands in opposition to some of those issues, as well.

If my points are valid, then there is no positive information that stands in opposition. If there were, it would negate my point.

It's not as if these things cannot be easily documented. So, I assure you, my comments on these specific points are accurate. If, however, you were to show me evidence that something more, something positive, had an effect on my comments, then I would be glad to see it.

The truth is I would be ecstatic to see REAL positive progress for the Iraqi citizens, as the last five years have been one horror after another for them. They are severely stressed with PTSD, living with bombs going off outside their homes, terrified if the leave their houses they will be kidnapped, tortured or murdered. Sick to death with fear for their loved ones. American troops smashing their way into their houses, leaving destroyed rooms behind them. And these are only a few of the terrors they face every day of their lives.

In fact, as one Iraqi blogger wrote, and I‘m paraphrasing: The deaths are down from 1000 to 300, and the Americans use the statistic as a sign of progress. Apparently the 300 deaths are acceptable to Americans, but they‘re not acceptable to the Iraqis. In fact, there is a large amount of resentment due to the insinuation that things are much better, as only ______________ Iraqis were killed this week.

You're just choosing to discount those reports b/c it doesn't fit with the opinion you've formed.

Excuse me? You‘ve been on the board for a month, and presume you know me well enough to accuse me of ignoring evidence? Amazing.

I’ll let it go this time, but in the future would you please have proof illustrating I am doing as you say?

Okay, please get me links to the reports you’d like me to look at. I’ll address your “democracy” comments later.

Elphaba