Over43 Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 Hugh Nibley has always fascinated me with the insight he always had in regards to the Book of Mormon. One that has stood out is the connection he makes with the Nepohite "Righteousness Wickedness Cycle" and the Nephite medium of "making a living". As he points out, when the Nephites were agriculturaly based they were more prone to be righteous. When they became a more commerce based society is when the trouble starts. I live in an agricultural area that is making the transition to a more "commerce" based community. I'm starting to see little things that don't mean a lot now, but as more "big business" moves into the area, these things will add up. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 As he points out, when the Nephites were agriculturaly based they were more prone to be righteous.So, there was no hay around? I live in an agricultural area that is making the transition to a more "commerce" based community.I live in a beautiful area that is currently being developed. It is very sad to see the lovely spots taken over by WalMart and title companies.Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggy Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 I am seeing corn/cotton/hay fields being turned into developments. Where are we going to get these crops if they are being cemented over?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenRaines Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 Has anyone driven out through this vast country of ours? From California to New York there are wide open pieces of land, owned by the US Government, that just sit there waiting to be made productive. When the salty desert of the San Joaquin Valley was reclaimed they were able to grow amazing crops and it is the source of much of the produce the world consumes. The same of the Salt Lake Valley. More land needs to be put to use. As for development, where would we put all the people if we don't develop? When I was a kid there were about 150 million people living in US. Now there are 300 million. They have to live someplace. I agree that we need to keep greenbelts so that we don't look like NY or LA but growth is inevitable unless we go to true zero population growth or have a plague. Ben Raines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 Hugh Nibley has always fascinated me with the insight he always had in regards to the Book of Mormon. One that has stood out is the connection he makes with the Nepohite "Righteousness Wickedness Cycle" and the Nephite medium of "making a living". As he points out, when the Nephites were agriculturaly based they were more prone to be righteous. When they became a more commerce based society is when the trouble starts.I'm a great admirer of Nibley, but I think this observation is off the mark, or at least overly simplistic. The Nephites tended to become wicked when they prospered materially. I don't think this is strictly equivalent to "[becoming] a more commerce-based society".I live in an agricultural area that is making the transition to a more "commerce" based community. I'm starting to see little things that don't mean a lot now, but as more "big business" moves into the area, these things will add up.As a very young man, I moved from a rather large city suburb (population ~300,000) to a small farming town (population ~930). To my 13-year-old mind, the small town was far less accepting and congenial, and far more bullying and close-minded. So my sample (N=1) belies the observation that a farming society is more Godly than a commerce-based society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 It is very sad to see the lovely spots taken over by WalMart and title companies.Elphaba Wal-Mart and the downfall of civilization may go hand in hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheLutheran Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 We farm 1600 acres in south eastern Washington state thanks to water provided by the Columbia Basin Irrigation District (Grand Coulee Dam.) I don't know that we're more "righteous" than our city neighbors but I can attest that farming for a living is hard work, humbling and faith-promoting. After all our careful planning and mind-boggling financial investment, we trust God with the outcome -- day after day and year after year. Something just sits well with us to know we're helping to fill a most basic human need. It's very difficult to become self-centered on the farm. Animals get fed before people do. When its time to bale hay [yes, Elphaba, we have hay!] doesn't matter the day, the hour or the minute, IT'S TIME TO BALE HAY! This "cultural" difference is evident in our daughters (ages 20, 19 and 17.5) who developed a sense of responsibility, self-reliance, and maturity in a very authentic setting. Maybe its that focus and determination that felt like "bullying and close-mindedness", Vort, when you moved from the city to a small ag community as a teen. While our girls may not be up-to-speed in pop culture (as their boyfriends like to point out) so far their ag roots have been serving them pretty well. You're right, Ben, there are vast acres of undeveloped land in this country but bringing them into ag production requires adequate water and infrastructure to move product to market efficiently and effectively. It is impossible to escape God's providential hand in our lives on the farm. We see it, breathe it, feel it and live it everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 You're right, Ben, there are vast acres of undeveloped land in this country but bringing them into ag production requires adequate water and infrastructure to move product to market efficiently and effectively. I remember explaining this (but not so well) one day, to a person who insisted we could have all six billion people in the world live in the state of Utah. We would need many more Wal-Marts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal_Son Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Perhaps I'm giving away too much of my secret identity , but I live in Cache Valley. I only moved here 6 years ago. But the transition that's taken place in those six years is (to me) just terrible. Every store you can imagine has come racing in here, all based on speculation that this is the next hot spot.And, unfortunately, this commercial development IS bringing new blood in. This is/was an agrarian society. Logan is a "Main Street" town, where everything you need is on one strip across a few blocks.Now, six years later there's traffic out the wazoo, the presence of the tractors on the roads has lessened - as these poor fools have cashed out pioneer-great-great-grandpa's farm to some developer for a quick buck...It's sad. I moved here because of the environment. Being from the midwest, I wanted my kids raised in that environment... I even bought an old farm house in January on a few acres, just to get away from the hustle and bustle - only to find that the land right next to mine just got sold to a developer... Aaaargh.My life experience agrees with what you've observed, Over43. The dynamics of my community are changing for the worse. The new blood and new money are heavily influencing the way of life that had been the status quo here for 150 years. Pride is rearing its ugly head in myriad facets. Worldliness is suddenly vogue. It's just awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 And, unfortunately, this commercial development IS bringing new blood in. . . . The new blood. . . .What is wrong with "new blood"?Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal_Son Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 What is wrong with "new blood"?ElphabaThey're the ones drawn in by the new development and the hustle and bustle. They are the antithesis, so to speak, of the people that were already here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 As he points out, when the Nephites were agriculturaly based they were more prone to be righteous. When they became a more commerce based society is when the trouble starts. Those who labor in the earth are the chosen people of God, if ever he had a chosen people, whose breasts he has made his peculiar deposit for substantial and genuine virtue. It is the focus in which he keeps alive that sacred fire, which otherwise might escape from the face of the earth. Corruption of morals in the mass of cultivators is a phenomenon of which no age nor nation has furnished an example. It is the mark set on those, who not looking up to heaven, to their own soil and industry, as does the husbandman, for their subsistence, depend for it on the casualties and caprice of customers. Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition. . . . While we have land to labor then, let us never wish to see our citizens occupied at a workbench, or twirling a distaff. Carpenters, masons, smiths, are wanting in husbandry: but, for the general operations of manufacture, let our work-shops remain in Europe. It is better to carry provisions and materials to workmen there, than bring them to the provisions and materials, and with them their manners and principles. The loss by the transportation of commodities across the Atlantic will be made up in happiness and permanence of government. The mobs of great cities add just so much to the support of pure government, as sores do to the strength of the human body. It is the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigor. A degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats to the heart of its laws and constitution. - Thomas Jefferson Notes on the State of Virginia 1781 -a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 They're the ones drawn in by the new development and the hustle and bustle. They are the antithesis, so to speak, of the people that were already here.Then you are using the term "new blood" incorrectly."New blood" is considered a positive addition to the population. New blood brings fresh ideas and enthusiasm to a place that has been stagnant for a while. Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal_Son Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Then you are using the term "new blood" incorrectly."New blood" is considered a positive addition to the population. New blood brings fresh ideas and enthusiasm to a place that has been stagnant for a while. ElphabaYou're splitting hairs. But, it still applies. They've got their fresh ideas and enthusiasm. And they're diluting the "stagnant" agrarian community. To many they ARE a positive addition. For those of us who don't want another valley that's wall to wall suburbs, however.... well, we could happily do without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 You're splitting hairs.No, I'm not. “New blood” has a very specific definition, which is:New blood: persons who are accepted into a group or organization and are expected to provide fresh ideas and vitality. (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)"New blood" is not interchangeable with people coming into the community you don't care for. It is also not interchangeable with any people other than those listed in the definition.Sorry, but I am a freak about proper word usage.Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ceeboo Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Sorry, but I am a freak about proper word usage.ElphabaHi Elphaba,:)I NO, ME BE A FREAK ALONG THAT WORDS THINGS ALL TOO.:)God bless,Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal_Son Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 "New blood" is not interchangeable with people coming into the community you don't care for. It is also not interchangeable with any people other than those listed in the definition.Sorry, but I am a freak about proper word usage.ElphabaAll hail the mighty arbiter of vocabulary. Get a life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 All hail the mighty arbiter of vocabulary.That's me!Get a life.Do you know where I can find one on sale?Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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