First Degree Murder and the Celestial Kingdom

[Prodigal_Son]

I know it is a cliche within the church to say that we are not sent to fail but it seems readily apparent to my series of failures here. Even if I do not know more than god the upshot of it all is that I am tired of playing and I do not wish to play anymore. So if I get the glory behing curtain number three so be it. It can't be any worse than what it is now.

I sympathize with such a weariness. I reached a low spot like that in my life several years ago... But I couldn't face cutting out now and paying the price for eternity. I also didn't want to kill myself only to instantly find myself in heaven with my own blood on my hands. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot (eternally)!!!

[rameumptom]

Walter,

Have you ever considered that you are not the only person who suffers here? I would suggest that instead of focusing on your own problems that you do as Jesus taught: lose yourself in the service of God. When we lose ourselves for His sake, we find our lives.

There just is no reason to sit around feeling sorry for ourselves. It is an easy thing to do, and we've all done it at least on occasion. Many have sunk so low by focusing on themselves that they have lost hope and faith, and seek another way out.

The answer comes in service. Think about others and serve them. I guarantee that if you look hard enough, you'll find people with much worse problems than yourself. Serve them. Forget yourself and your own problems. Allow your ability to bless others turn around and bless you.

[Hemidakota]

Adding to Rameumptom, in so doing, become like a ministering angel in the lives of others. As King Benjamin's counsel that "when ye are in the service ... of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."

[Prodigal_Son]

Adding to Rameumptom, in so doing, become like a ministering angel in the lives of others. As King Benjamin's counsel that "when ye are in the service ... of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."

Might even be worth reviewing Holland's conference talk. Incredible... as always.

[walterkellar]

Well, I see your wisdom in that suggestion. But my many years in social work kinda neglects the assumption of the lack of service. I do quite abit free stuff for people who call me. This site has been the only available avenue for venting frustration. I mow grass for the elderly...tutor the wayward student without charge...but if I have become a bit tiresome for you....adieu

[Hemidakota]

No problem...keep venting. :)

[Hemidakota]

Might even be worth reviewing Holland's conference talk. Incredible... as always.

It figures...I don't have my portable hard drive library with me. If my memory serves me, someone posted this conference talk PDF file on this forum.

[funkymonkey]

As it has been revealed that I have lacked the association of unconditional love I have also lacked the experience of having a god-like archetype. No hoary hair grandfather dispensing sage advice whilst laughing good naturely. So do I go with the Morgan Freeman god look or is there someone else that I can pattern off of?

Hi Walter.

Do you live in the SLC area? If so, can I recommend you go to the SLC temple visitor's center and see the statue of Jesus Christ? That can be a powerful experience to help visualize the godhead.

For me, I had to take "religion" out of it and focus only on me and my father...and remember that religion only gives me the tools to have that relationship with my Father. That individual relationship is the cornerstone for faith; to know that he can guide and direct you when it is necessary. I see so many people get up and bear their testimony but it is a testimony of the church...it just makes me wonder if they're worshiping their Father in Heaven, or if they're worshiping the church. (not sure if that made any sense).

The adversary is a very tricky guy. If there's one thing I've learned in the past couple of years, it is that the adversary wants nothing more than to make me think that I cannot have a personal relationship with God...that I'm nothing. A big trick he plays is in our minds and passes it off as depression or with something like "nobody knows how hard my life has been." He can tempt us with thoughts of worthlessness, anger, frustration, self doubt, etc. He wants us to do nothing but wallow in our own self pitty, he wants to consume our thoughts with sorrow and anger to the point that we are a slave to our own sorrows...and then we do nothing to better ourselves and sink further and further until we feel completely powerless and then he has total control.

We have a lot more control over our thoughts than we realize...it is up to us to cast those thoughts asside and say "Oh, I know where this is coming from and I'm not going to allow myself to play into it, or think that way." It takes a lot of humility, and a lot more work and practice, to change our outlook on life and our thought habits, and ultimately how we deal with our trials. But I gotta say it's totally worth it...it makes life WAY easier.

I really liked the conference talk that challenged to pray for nothing but to tell your Father in Heaven all the things you're thankful for...that's it; don't ask for things, just thank Him. Food, shelter, air in my lungs, health, etc... if you think about it, just to live in this country we are SO blessed. The people of pioneer days dealt with so much hardship, (death and abandonment and abuse were commonplace) we are really truly living in a wonderful time where so much more is possible for us to accomplish and acheive. There are medical advancements, modern conveniences like Walmart and cars and microwaves. (ok, random examples )

I know there are all these people in the church that say "God loves you. You are a special person." bla bla bla. It doesn't mean anything unless you come to understand what that means for yourself. It is an individual thing that nobody else can do for you...the work to find it is yours. We have such a sense of entitlement in this country like we expect God do something for us first before we will reciprocate. Why shouldn't it be the other way around? What if we thought we should be working to earn every single thing that we are blessed with, instead of thinking "I deserve a family, I deserve a healthy body, I should have this, I should have and that." We really don't deserve anything...we gotta work for it...including our relationship and faith in our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ.

What about His work? What about the needs of all His children around the world? What makes my life any more important or deserving than someone elses? We are all God's children and we should take the time to open our eyes and realize that it's not just about "me"...it's about the whole friggin human race. I can choose to live in sorrow and anger and pain, or I can choose to serve the Lord with everything I have.

OK, I'm rambling, sorry. I hope this helps somehow. I am truly concerned for you Walter and hope only the best for you!

Edited October 15, 2008 by funkymonkey

[jschroeder]

I know it is a cliche within the church to say that we are not sent to fail but it seems readily apparent to my series of failures here. Even if I do not know more than god the upshot of it all is that I am tired of playing and I do not wish to play anymore. So if I get the glory behing curtain number three so be it. It can't be any worse than what it is now.

OH Walter it could be soooo much worse, you have no idea!! So you are tired, ask for strength to continue inspite of being tired. Ask for what you need to do His will. You know the only thing we have that we can give to our Father freely, that He has not alredy given to us, is our will.

When you align your will with His you can over come whatever life is handing you. You were meant to overcome whatever is in your way Walter, no matter what it is. Heavenly Father is there waiting for you to let Him in and help you. You need to invite Him, He will not intrude.

Just one other thought here, do you really know how much He is already helping you? Whenever I get to a point where I think nothing could be any worse than the pain and agony I suffer I am reminded to go and seek those less fortunate than I am. And they are all around us Walter.

Sometimes we get so caught up in our own pain we forget that one of the best ways to help ourselves, is to help someone else.

[jschroeder]

Well, I see your wisdom in that suggestion. But my many years in social work kinda neglects the assumption of the lack of service. I do quite abit free stuff for people who call me. This site has been the only available avenue for venting frustration. I mow grass for the elderly...tutor the wayward student without charge...but if I have become a bit tiresome for you....adieu

I for one am not tired of hearing from you. I think most of us are just concerned to see someone is so much turmoil as you seem to be.

I'm guessing here because I'm fairly new to the site, but I have a feeling that not one person who has responded to you has not had hard times in their lives.

We can only offer our ideas and suggestions and keep listening and caring...in the end you are the only one who can change your life.

The service you give is a good start. When you mow the elderly's grass do you see their eyes and their faces when you arrive, when you are done? To them you are our Fathers answer to a prayer. If He would answer their prayers He will answer yours as well.

Sometimes He answers "wait a little longer", sometimes "no that's not going to help", sometimes "come to Me and together we will get through this".

I'm not sure what you are asking for, although I'm hearing quite a bit of "I want out of life" in your threads...that is never a request He will grant until it is your time to finish your journey here and move on. Might be a better idea to maybe ask to know what He would have you do with all the experiences you have had in your life, how to turn them into blessings for others and eventually for yourself as well.

Keep talking Walter something will change :) for the better

[FlaviusHambonius]

Moksha, we are still not permitted to commit suicide even under great duress. I suffer pain and other medical ailments daily and eventually the physical body will stop working. I still give thanks for to my Heavenly Parents for creating me spiritually and affording me the opportunity to come to this earth and cloth myself with mortal flesh and experience life.

I think 'great duress' as you call it can make us do things that we never would think we were capable of.

For instance, the jumpers at the WTC on 9/11. While they were grasping at the edges of the building where a window once was, trying to gasp for any kind of air that they could get--What would have been the thing to say? Allright everyone, let's take a step back and take a deep breath and think about this for a minute (try not to mind the toxic black fumes and the wall of flames rapidly approaching your backside) because our afterlife depends on such reflection. Either we burn here alive or we burn in hell or if it was a LDS group, we will only make it to the Telestial Kingdom because of our choice to commit suicide.

The 'Falling Man' who pictures were famous when he jumped from the WTC, was the son of a minister and he himself had recently became one or was aspiring to become one, my memory fails me.

His occupation was setting up the PA system's at 'The World View' resteraunt at the top of the WTC.

I'm sure this young man had high ethics and high morals and I'm sure that his family and loved ones were going through his head, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this young man probably said a prayer to his God before he jumped out of that building that day.

My point is that we as human beings or children of God don't really know how we would react in a situation as extreme as that, we tend to only think on gut reaction as circumstances present themselves.

I rely on a Judge who judges with mercy and judges on circumstances and events, I also hope for his tender mercies.

Anyone who has an extra hour on their hands can YouTube 'The Falling Man' it may or may not give you a different perspective.

[FlaviusHambonius]

This will sound a bit harsh - and was, perhaps, already mentioned (I haven't backtracked all the way through what I missed) - but suicide is a declaration that you know better than God, and ultimately represents a profound lack of faith in His ability to care for you and know what's best for you. I condemn no one, mind you. I can't begin to imagine what some folks face. This is just a "clinical" description of the error in judgment that suicide is.

I'm not sure about your statement that 'suicide is a declaration that you know better than God.....'

What if one of the Japanese soldiers on Iwo Jima during WWII after getting flamed by an American soldier with a flamethrower and comes walking out of his cave burned beyond recognition and on fire and falls to the ground but is still alive.

Does the American soldier let the Japanese soldier suffer an excruciating death or does he leave him there thinking he might survive or does he give him assisted suicide and shoot him in the head......I'm sure the Japanese soldier would prefer the latter and I'm sure declaring he knows more than God would be the last thing on his mind.

I respect you PS for not condemning anyone, I also can't imagine what some folks face in their lives.

One more thought, what if a Father rescues 2 of his 3 kids--he gets them to safety and by that time the home is totally engulfed--the fire dept. is still not there----does he go into the home and try and rescue his last child even though he walks into certain death along with the last child? Some would call that a suicide mission and the other two children would be Fatherless or would it be more 'Blessed is he that gives his life for another'?

[Hemidakota]

My point is that we as human beings or children of God don't really know how we would react in a situation as extreme as that, we tend to only think on gut reaction as circumstances present themselves.

I rely on a Judge who judges with mercy and judges on circumstances and events, I also hope for his tender mercies.

As you stated, I rely on the mercies of the Atonement for any wrong doings I may commit, thus, allow Him to be the final judge.

It still doesn't give anyone the opportunity to commit suicide under any circumstances as present. A good example of a funeral I did attend years ago. “I do not know what was being felt by this Latino teenager who committed suicide in protecting his own family from gang retaliation. Will the Savior have mercy on His soul for committing this act? I do not know. Only the Savior and this person who committed this act will have that full knowledge. Only under certain leadership discernment can we allow that Spirit to tell us this person fate. We cannot allow our emotions be swayed what is given as a principles we must follow.

President Kimball spoke on having those core beliefs concreted in our soul prior in making haste or last minute decisions. I am not left up to the last second in making that decision. It starts now and not later. Our reaction in any extreme circumstance is again, based on our core beliefs. As I know, we are fallible as HIS Servants. But, I do ask for that supporting arm in helping through those moments of life. A good point of being burned is Abinadi. He could have walked away, in knowing his fate. He didn’t. He faced it. It goes back to level of faith.

Now, your statement can only represent your own views and not others...why? I am that other [we]. I do know my limits what I can handle but do you?

[funkymonkey]

Someone jumping out of the WTC to avoid burning to death is totally different from suicide...IMHO

[jschroeder]

Someone jumping out of the WTC to avoid burning to death is totally different from suicide...IMHO

I would have to ad that so is a father rushing back into a burning building to rescue a child, even though the odds are against him coming out alive. Nothing is set in stone, he could somehow miraculously make it. What would he live with for the rest of his life if he did not at least try?

It is easy to say, under no circumstance would I ever do that. I for one, however, can never say never. I do not know what I would do in someone else's shoes. I would have to rely on the Lord to help me through it in whatever way He saw fit. Having been down this road myself I have to say it is not that easy to find an answer to the many variables of this question with a simple blanket answer of I would never....I used to think that, too. Things happen in our lives that we could never imagine what our reaction would be and life can hand us some issues we would never have expected to have to deal with. Depression, drug addiction, alcoholism, violence...all things that none of us can truly predict how we would respond to.

And before anyone responds with there is the Word of Wisdom to help us avoid some of those things, I will say it is true, that is there for our benefit. Not everyone has that knowledge and not everyone who receives that knowledge after already having been there can stay in that path.

Life is hard, we make mistakes and hopefully we learn and grow and move on. Suicide is one that, at least in this life, there is no growth. Repentance can only come from the other side and from there it is pretty hard I imagine to tell the people you left behind how sorry you are once you see what could have been.

As I have said in previous posts, I have Chronic Major Depression and at my worst I did attempt. I would never in a million years think of such a thing if I had not been depressed. I am thankful for Priesthood leaders who did not judge and who were only concerned with helping me find my way back and getting the treatment I needed. I am thankful that Heavenly Father knows our abilities and knows when we are fully accountable and when there are things in the way of our making the choices we would normally make. I have also had people I know who have attempted.....and succeeded. There is no way to describe that pain and the questions that run through one's mind. And the only peace to be found is to be found in the mercy of the Lord Himself.

It is a good thing that our Heavenly Father knows our hearts and minds and that the Savior Himself will judge us for our actions and lack thereof, as well as the intent of our hearts and minds. We can only see the actions of another through our own experiences and that is limited to what we have lived through and done in our lives. He alone has felt what we all will feel, He alone has suffered what some of us will suffer here. He alone, will judge all of us and I for one am comfortable with that.

Some questions are just too complicated to answer in this life without an eternal view. At least that is my take on the subject, and I could be wrong, but it works for me and my conscience is ok with that.:)

I guess I have rambled long enough though.

[Prodigal_Son]

I'm not sure about your statement that 'suicide is a declaration that you know better than God.....'

I concede that there are exceptions - but those exceptions seem to simply revolve around what may or may not be "suicide" by definition. Again, though, it's in the Lord's hands to judge.

[jschroeder]

I concede that there are exceptions - but those exceptions seem to simply revolve around what may or may not be "suicide" by definition. Again, though, it's in the Lord's hands to judge.

This may be a little off the subject here but isn't any time we break a commandment declaring we know better than God? Any time we refuse a calling, refuse an inspiration?

Much in this life is left up to our individual interpretation with the guidance of the scriptures, our leaders, our conscience and the Holy Spirit. Yet I am aware of numerous times, too many, that I have in essence, said "I know what's best for me" and not followed promptings, made mistakes and walked away from things that I could and probably needed to be doing.

Such is the reason for repentance...none of us are perfect and if we always knew that God knows better, which I think we do intellectually, and we always followed that knowledge, then we would all have no need for the Savior. I for one, need Him!! Every second of every day I need Him in my life because I make mistakes, I err in my judgment and I don't always "agree", for lack of a better word, that God knows best. I try to do things my way, and that's not always in "bad" or "terrible" ways, just a statement that I need not seek His counsel because I know better.

I think some of this sounds, too me, like the difference between following the "letter" of the law and following the "spirit" of the law. I would not want to judge which is which in many cases, I think this is one of them.

[jschroeder]

I concede that there are exceptions - but those exceptions seem to simply revolve around what may or may not be "suicide" by definition. Again, though, it's in the Lord's hands to judge.

Just another thought and then I will be quiet, for a bit:)

How many times when a person does end up dieing from suicide (since be are speaking of definition) did they really, really intend on killing themselves right up until that final moment of consciousness and that final breath?

How many changed their minds, realized how horrible a mistake they were making, found a reason to hang on - only for it to be too late?

Yes, maybe their actions look like suicide but what was their mind and their heart? Where was their soul in all of it, for how long and was it in the same place when they left this world and entered the next?

Again, there are so many variables we may never know.

I think the one thing many of us agree on, and it's a good point to agree on, is that the Savior is the one who will judge and He knows best and it is in His Hands....where it belongs. That may be the best we are going to get on this one...and that's not a bad thing to agree on :)