FAMILY PROBLEMS...any advice?

[theBUBBAMANcan]

I would welcome suggestions concerning my 19-yr old stepdaughter. I'll try to make a long story short.

I am married to a wonderful woman and we have 3 little kids (6 yr old girl, 4 yr old boy and 10 month old boy) along with my step-daughter.

My step-daughter's name is Ashley and she is having a lot of problems. The root cause is mostly due to her father being in prison at Leavenworth for making/selling meth. He has been a addict for a very long time and will now be in prison for many years before he gets a parole hearing. Ashley loves her dad and his problems are tearing her apart.

She keeps moving in & out of our home. She bounces back and forth from place to place because she is unwilling to live by anyones rules. She has drug and alcohol problems, is an admitted alcoholic and can't stay out of trouble with the law.

She spent a year in college in Utah and dropped out with a 1.81 GPA. She begged for a second chance at college, so we gave it to her. She gave me her solemn word that she would take college seriously and complete at least 12 credit hours and get at least a 3.0 GPA. Her intended major was nursing (RN). We enrolled her at a local tech college here in WI, but she refused to do any of the work, so the school "dropped" her out. A few days ago, she went back to her native IA to visit her grandma and drive with grandma to Leavenworth to visit her dad. The road trip also gave her an opportunity to party, which she did.

Well...she ended up in a serious car accident. She was drunk & high. She will be okay but the car we gave her 3 mos ago is, of course, totalled. She will also have legal issues to deal with in IA along with some legal issues she already had here in WI. She is convinced that she will lose her license, and probably has not told us the whole story. She said she doesn't remember how the accident occurred.

We live in a very small apartment and have very limited means. It was difficult for us to afford to get her started in college, which lasted for less than a month. She had been coming home drunk and stoned and sharing a bed with my 1st grade daughter...which has infuriated me!

I told Ashley that she cannot move back in with us since she broke her word about college. In truth...part of my reason was that I can't stand her being drunk and stoned around the little ones and she can't respect my feelings on that matter. Her addictions have rendered her incapable of making decent moral decision...IMHO.

Any suggestions? Do you feel that I did the right thing? Ashley accuses me of treating her different because she's not my "real" daughter...but I don't feel that this is fair. I feel that I have a right to hold her accountable for a decent standard of behavior while living in my home. She refuses to abide by any rules.

She is a good person at heart...really. However, she has problems with alcohol and drugs that bring out the worst in her. She will not go to treatment and she does not admit that she is in over her head.

Edited October 20, 2008 by theBUBBAMANcan

[MrsHart]

Your post makes me so sad because your stepdaughter is my age. I think that if I were in her situation, I would expect my parents to be very strict with me, which is what I think would help me clean up, yet at the same time I might be resentful of them if I can't see that what I'm doing is wrong.

I think that you did the right thing, and I think that my parents would have done the same. Like you and her mother, they wouldn't have wanted to kick me out, but I also have younger siblings and my parents would not have wanted them to be influenced by me. Kids definitely look up to their older brothers and sisters, whether they'd like to admit it or not, so the other kids do influence the younger ones.

I don't have any advice (sorry), but I just want to say that I don't think you did anything wrong. Also, I can tell that you DO care about her, and that you are not interested in making her look bad, since you did insist that she's a good person.

Edited October 20, 2008 by MrsHart

[Elgama]

I personally think you should put conditions on her moving back in she has to attend counselling and rehab and be clean for a period of 6 weeks-3 months. When she moves back in she has to get a job and pay rent, and live by some rules which you can come up with together. But also accept she is not going to stop her addictions without help, and that isn't going to work unless she wants to. But as difficult as it is I would offer to attend court with her. And still support her in other ways except financial -

I will say part of it is you have given in too much - if you knew she had the addictions of course she dropped out of college, and no way she should have had a car you paid for. Especially nursing that puts other peoples life at risk.

-Charley

[WANDERER]

I don't think further education is the right path for her at the moment..it's too expensive to pay for an education that she is unable to get the most out of and it's only going to lead to triggering off such things when she fails and she doesn't need to be in a cycle of failure. This is probably where some career guidance may assist. I also wonder if putting her in a *caring* profession...as much as she wants to do that/and people who have a background like this generally do...is a stressor. A profession that would allow for her to complete further study later down the track in which to upgrade and that may be seen as a step towards nursing (aged care) might be accepted. Though I think it might be better for her to give something different a try due to the addiction problems...something that will give her the emotional outlet (a service career) but not present risks. It can sometimes be difficult to change this need that they have to do this. It would be a mistake to do the rehab without the counselling component.

While she hasn't told you everything about the car accident this may be because it presents difficulties...since she was under the influence of drugs as well it probably rules out nursing and perhaps other jobs depending on the extent and consequences...so denial while coping with that element perhaps. When she is ready to talk about it. That element of facing up to things and telling your parents who are going to be sad for you is something that takes a bit of steeling up. Probably the *we will be sad* message but please tell us so that we can support you. Worry is worse than being sad or disappointed.

Assisting her with living away from home and visiting and keeping the link to family activities in as much as she is able to accept that is not necessarily a bad thing. She needs to see the support level there. Playing the *I'm treated differently* card is just a measure of trying to hold onto support that she thinks she needs...while she isn't playing by house rules it does mean that there are limits and to some extent her behaviour is externally regulated. She has to begin doing this for herself. The caring for your youngest and this behaviour is something that needs to come up in counselling...the destructive component of this so much models the relationship of love between her and her biological father,no. But if she can't live by the rules this isn't going to assist her with other living arrangements...there may be issues down the track with that.

Teaching her how to access support is one of the things you can do to support adult children.

Living away from home...she views it as a punishment....some things to change that: how proud of her skills you are; special time for that (home recipe book, kitchen kits of things you have two of, a special family thing that is now hers to make her new home like home, dollar shop shopping for things needed and listing, budgetting, a regular weekly family dinner and evening/sleepover and inclusion in family events, house warming, a family music tape with songs and music chosen by the family, a cd of family photos). Adulthood is a thing to celebrate...not fear. But there are some rituals to doing that that make it less traumatic. She also needs to know that it is still her home even if it is not the place that she lives...and that will never change. This is a rite of passage..but not an easy one. A bit of a discussion about how difficult it is for you as well...and what it was like for you at her age.

It's such a hard one...you can feel the tug of independence they want to make their own rules and test out their adult wings and there will be successes and failures in doing that and that there is joy in that. She needs to see that all adult children go through this stage and it's not that she has stuffed up ...but that this is the time and place and season for that because you feel she is ready for this and at that stage where she needs to do this for herself (as much as you want to do it for her all parents have to face this) and that letting go is upsetting for parents as well. Point out that it will happen to all of your children and that it is what parenting is all about...but that it will never change that you are their parents and that being a parent is lifelong. Yes she is going to say it's because of this, I can change...but she needs to know that this has always been the plan...we don't aim to have our fifty year old children living at home with us. The selfishness of wishing your children would never grow up and that they would always be sheltered from things by your rules and decisions...it's a normal feeling for parents to have...and it's equally normal for young adults to feel suffocated because they need to do things for themselves. Perhaps talk about how the young ones are growing up...you still want to tie x's shoelaces for them...they do a really bad job of it and you think they are going to trip and have an accident...but she won't let you...I can do it myself. The I can do it myself makes parents proud...hurts a little. It's not rejection...it is love. But if you are consistent in telling her this...eventually she will hear you.

[lilered]

My counsel would be this: She has to take responsiblity for her own actions. She should not be enabled any longer as this simply prolongs the issues. As for her returning to your home. I will tell you what we did and it worked.

First, we made our son sign an agreement. The agreement was simple and to the point. Must go thru a rehab program which included finding, paying, and completing it. Once succesfully completing then we allowed him to live in our home providing no drugs, no alcahol, obtained a job, kept his room clean, and paid $100 per mo. after the first month of his job.

First he rejected this all together, 2 days later he said he might agree if we cut the conditions, 1 week later he agreed to all the conditions. He found a state rehab program and enrolled. He completed it and then was allowed to move back in. He attended church with us and starting getting his act together. He stayed with us for about a 1 1/2 yrs and decided to move into his own place. He slipped after 6 months on his own and lost everything again. We told him we had helped him all we were going to and he would have to start helping himself. Finally after about another year, he decided he had enough of this lifestyle and is now doing great. He too had a good heart and was a good kid, just had some issues that he had to resolve. We have a great relationship with him and his family now.

[applepansy]

When my oldest son was 15, he decided that he couldn't live by our rules and moved out. We didn't allow smoking, drinking or drugs in our home. He has three younger siblings and we could not allow that behavior around them. He was always welcome at home and he had a bedroom, but those behaviors had to stay out. He knew we meant it. I saw him infrequently from age 15 to 21. During that time he was hopitalized three times. . .once his only kidney failed (he was born with only one) and twice for car accidents. The hospital would release him to us and he'd come home until he healed a bit and then he'd run away again.

I know he was upset that we wouldn't allow his behaviors in our home. But it was his choice to run away. He knew the rules and prior to age 15 we had him in many counseling programs. His life is a long story, and it ended on Nov 11, 1999 when a Motorhome ran over the small car he was in. He and a friend were killed.

Looking back I would not change anything. My husband and I did everything we knew how to help him, provide him a home and get him help, teach him the gospel, and provide counseling and other programs.

You have the right, with your wife (your step-daughter's mother) to set rules for your home and younger children. This is about love. Your step-daughter will have difficulty understanding that you love her because her judgement is clouded with drugs and alcohol, and most likely supported by friends who are also clouded by drugs and alcohol. There will come a day when she knows you love her and that your choices were based on the results of her choices. My son finally knew before he died that we loved him and wanted him to succeed. But he had to open his eyes that he could see and open his ears that he could hear before he knew.

My only advice is PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY. . . then because sometimes the Lord doesn't make choices for us and sometimes our choices are between right and right and wrong and maybe another right, we have a choice to make before we get an answer. Then "be still" and you'll get an answer. I also kept my son's name on the prayer roll continually (that's a whole story by inself). We were also open about his problems with family and friends, we needed their prayers too . . . and our son needed their prayers.

Some of the most profound answers we've received regarding our children have been whille we were at the temple. Go as often as you can. . . make it a priority.

There is a talk (now on CD at Deseret Book) by Elder Gene R. Cook. "Receiving Answers to Prayer" that has helped me. When I'm struggling to know what to do I listen to it again. . .and again. . .etc. And I do what Elder Cooks suggests.

What I do know for sure is that as parents we can only do our best. Our children have their agency and we cannot take it away. Heavenly Father isn't going to let us. Because they have their agency and because their experiences are different from ours, they are going to make decisions that we wouldn't make and sometimes that we don't understand. With children doing destructive things often their choices hurt us. However, Heavenly Father knows their hearts and He loves them even more then we do.

Do not step in and fix her legal problems or other issues. She has to face the natural conseuqences of her actions. Only then will she see a need for change. Only she can make the changes necessary to succeed in life. As hard as it is to do, sometimes as parents we have to step back and let our children suffer for their choices.

My heart breaks for you and your wife,

applepansy

[rameumptom]

My counsel is, give her one more chance. This one requires signing a contract with you of things expected of her: including attending AA/NA and therapy.

The contract must include penalties for slip ups: no car, grounded to the house, curfew, etc. If she wants to live in your house, then she has to accept your rules and expectations as a kid.

If she gets to where she is not obeying rules, but going out partying continually, then the contract is over and she is out on her own. She is, after all, an adult. If she wants to live with you, then it is on your terms. Otherwise, she lives elsewhere and is invited over every Sunday afternoon for family dinner (as long as she's sober).

You need to also explain and show to her that love and respect are a two-way street. When she parties, she shows disrespect to the family, and risks the other children's safety and future.

Edited October 20, 2008 by rameumptom

[applepansy]

You need to also explain and show to her that love and respect are a two-way street.

I agree with everything you wrote except for the quoted statement. Love is not a two-way street, nor should it be. Love, the kind oif love that heals, is often one way. Love should never be conditional.

Our Heavenly Father's and Jesus Christ's love for us is unconditional. Yes there are things we need to do in this life to achieve exaltatioon and return to live with them, but regardless where we end up in the next life, I know our Heavenly Father and our Lord, and Savior Jesus Christ, will always love us. We should be doing the same with our children. Its only through love that relationships and people change. Charity is the true love of Christ. . . where would we all be if it was conditional?

applepansy

[rameumptom]

Let me clarify, for a loving relationship to succeed, love must be a two-way street. I can love in one direction all I want, but for a relationship to be maintained and sustained, both must mutually enter into the relationship with love.

[applepansy]

Let me clarify, for a loving relationship to succeed, love must be a two-way street. I can love in one direction all I want, but for a relationship to be maintained and sustained, both must mutually enter into the relationship with love.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Love doesn't not have to be two-sided and true unconditional love never is. If you love someone and they don't love you back to the same degree, often without an understanding of the true love of Christ a relationship falls apart because of unreal expectations.

I can give many examples but I'll give you the one I'm closest to and best fits this thread. My son. We loved him unconditionally and he knew it. He also stated it didn't do us any good to love him, he hated us. There were conditions placed on living at home with younger siblings and because there were rules he hated us. But there were no conditions on our love. He knew we loved him and he knew his Heavenly Father loved him even more (he later told us).

This continued for years. Because we loved him unconditionally without love returned he was able to come home to visit sometimes. He knew he was welcome because we loved him. And Because we loved him unconditionally he eventually saw that his life style choices were causing the problems in his life and he had a desire to change before he died.

He is not my only example of what unreciprocated, unconditional love can and will do in a relationship, any relationship, not just parent/child.

applepansy

[rameumptom]

You missed my point, which is shown by your example. Is the relationship you have with your son the type you would wish to have? Given he's not living your rules or in your house, I would suppose not. You are giving him unconditional love on your part, but he is not reciprocating that love. This makes the relationship one-sided. Nothing wrong with that, except there is a limited relationship.

The Godhead works as a relationship, because all members of it are equally yoked and invested in loving each other equally. While the Godhead may love Satan in the way you love your misguided son, there is a severe limitation to the relationship, because at least one side refuses to accept the other's actions/methods/beliefs. This does not change the fact that God has divine love. It does, however, affect the relationship.

Relationships must be two-sided, in order to be celestial on all parts. Christ prayed for his disciples on both continents, asking they be one in him and he is one with the Father (John 17, 3 Ne 19). While Christ can love them all in his divine way, for a relationship to exist requires both parties to enter into it. To the extent that two beings are involved in a relationship, they are relating. The deeper they enter into a loving relationship, the more they relate. If one loves and the other hates, then there is no true relationship occurring - there is only one-way events happening.

[piper]

Ashley loves her dad and his problems are tearing her apart.

First, on this part, this is not an excuse for her behavior. Many children have gone through much worse and turned out ok. I could give you many, many examples of this from my 15 years as a counselor.

Her intended major was nursing (RN).

Reality check for her on this. As long as she has a drug/alcohol problem she will not be a nurse even if she can pass the courses which it appears she lacks the discipline to do. If she gets a criminal record due to drugs she will be unlicenseable unless she can get them expunged. In Utah, a DUI/drug related offense can be kept from expungement for 7 years or more.

She had been coming home drunk and stoned and sharing a bed with my 1st grade daughter...which has infuriated me!

And it should worry you. IMHO you have a responsibility to the younger children in your home. Not only to protect them from such influences in your home, but the potential for physical/emotional harm from someone who is out of control and they have the need to feel safe and secure in their home. I know it is difficult to imagine that she might hurt someone, but a person on drugs/alcohol often does unimaginable things and then blames the drug. In fact, they are responsible as they chose to use. If you keep letting her back in your home as is, you are tacitly approving of her lifestyle.

I told Ashley that she cannot move back in with us since she broke her word about college. In truth...part of my reason was that I can't stand her being drunk and stoned around the little ones and she can't respect my feelings on that matter. Her addictions have rendered her incapable of making decent moral decision...IMHO.

Good, except that IMHO you need to be completely honest with her. A behavior not confronted cannot be changed. She needs to know that you cannot have her around your little ones when she is drunk and/or stoned.

Any suggestions? Do you feel that I did the right thing? Ashley accuses me of treating her different because she's not my "real" daughter...but I don't feel that this is fair.

This is classic manipulation. Addicts are very adept at getting people to give in to them. She knows you care about her and will use that to get what she wants.

She will not go to treatment and she does not admit that she is in over her head.

That needs to be the first step. However, you can't make her change. You can love her, care for her etc. but she appears to be disrupting the family and gives no thought to the impact on the little ones or you. Jesus loved all unconditionally, but he still drove the moneychangers out of his fathers (and his) house. They were violating the rules, being disruptive and a very bad influence on the people. Yes, pray for her, tell her you love her and care, but, She will have to come to the point that she decides to change on her own. I hope that she does in fact do that before much worse happens. I realize that I have worded this quite strongly. I don't mean to offend. I have just worked with this type of behavior for a long time. I know people must be held accountable and the little ones protected as much as possible. I also know she may say she hates you for this and it will be hard. I pray you have the strength to carry on and that your family prospers.

[Guest SisterofJared]

bubbaman, I've gone through a bit of this with my oldest son. He is an alcoholic. During the time he lived at home, there was not a problem. It wasn't until after he married and divorced that he turned to alcohol... his answer to the pain from the divorce. Still, even knowing the reason, we couldn't accept it. I remember him coming home and hanging on to the wall in order to walk down the hallway. I saw him come in the house and then fall in the front room floor. It tore me apart to see. I, too, had other kids at home... teenagers. It was devastating to all of us.

Finally I sat my son down when he was sober and told him that next time he went out to drink, he better make sure he had somewhere to go, because if he came to my house I would turn him away. I told him that it would hurt me very much and that I would cry, but that I would turn him away. And I meant it. He never came to my house drunk or drinking again. It hasn't cured his alcoholism, but it has made it so the rest of us don't have to deal with it on a daily basis anymore.

Few things are more destructive to the home that a family member coming in drunk or drugged up. Instantly the spirit flees and an awkwardness fills the room. They are totally unaware of this, and continue with whatever behavior they think is okay... sometimes even more harmful. Stupid humor that isn't funny, anger that is misplaced, lectures from their seemingly superior intelligence, coaxing others to join them in harmful activities... if you're lucky, they're sleep it off without any of these. But often you're not lucky. We were blessed in the fact that all of my other children still at home used their brother as an example of the harm alcohol does, and after seeing him, they determined they would NEVER drink alcohol. But they were old enough to see the harm it had done. Smaller children would have a much harder tme judging that.... they would feel the awkwardness, miss the spirit, but not have the tools to evaluate what was going on.

My personal opinion is that you should not let your 19 year old daughter back in your home while she is under the influence ever again. Tell her you love her, set some guidelines, turn her away if she comes home under the influence, and cry. Let the younger kids see you cry and understand that you are broken-hearted that you have to turn her away.

The hardest thing on earth to do, I think, would be to turn away your child during the winter. I am SO grateful my son didn't push it to that after our talk. Because if he had come home drunk, I would have turn him away.... absolutely mandatory after that talk, or else you re-inforce the bad behavior rather than the good. I would have handed him a blanket or two and let him sleep in the car. I would have cried all night, and prayed like crazy. I am soooooo grateful he listened and never pushed it again.

Remember it's HER choice, not yours. You really have no choice, because you must care for your other children.

Good luck!

Sister of Jared.

[Moksha]

This sounds like a case for tough love. Some former addicts have said they needed to hit rock bottom before turning themselves around.

[maria1981]

hi everyone

this is a very sad thing,

i too know all about this from ur daughters side more than being the parent

drugs is a big thing u cant just stop because someone wonts u too the bottom line is she has to hit rock bottom before she will listen to u

some people never stop and others change as soon as they relize this is not the place for them

she has a dad also who is in prison and thats hard for her to deal with and get her head around she doesnt see drugs in the same way as u infact its like food not realy a big deal

just be strong and love her always treat her as ur own

if u let her be free and dont have her live with u she will just get wrose drink and drugs are an easy option

have u spoken to ur doctors about any of this thier are tones of help out thier for ur family even for u on how to deal with this

school is a big no no u wont change her or get anywhere

if u need to talk about this with someone who knows first hand mail me i will give u the facts and mybe help u on whot to do

but go to ur doctors get her some real help and i dont mean going to see someone to talk about ur problems that wont work

[applepansy]

You missed my point, which is shown by your example. Is the relationship you have with your son the type you would wish to have? Given he's not living your rules or in your house, I would suppose not. You are giving him unconditional love on your part, but he is not reciprocating that love. This makes the relationship one-sided. Nothing wrong with that, except there is a limited relationship.

The Godhead works as a relationship, because all members of it are equally yoked and invested in loving each other equally. While the Godhead may love Satan in the way you love your misguided son, there is a severe limitation to the relationship, because at least one side refuses to accept the other's actions/methods/beliefs. This does not change the fact that God has divine love. It does, however, affect the relationship.

Relationships must be two-sided, in order to be celestial on all parts. Christ prayed for his disciples on both continents, asking they be one in him and he is one with the Father (John 17, 3 Ne 19). While Christ can love them all in his divine way, for a relationship to exist requires both parties to enter into it. To the extent that two beings are involved in a relationship, they are relating. The deeper they enter into a loving relationship, the more they relate. If one loves and the other hates, then there is no true relationship occurring - there is only one-way events happening.

No I didn't miss your point. Human relationships are not celestial. And often relationships are one-sided. We are commanded by Christ to "Love one Another, even as I have love you." That doesn't mean we love them only when they love us back or when they do what we want them to. We are suppose to love them regardless.

If Bubbaman and his wife can love their daughter unconditionally, with the true love of Christ (unconditionally), there will come a time when their relationship with their dauthter will blossom. I know you can love someone out of destructive behavior, with the help of Christ.

applepansy

[theBUBBAMANcan]

I know you can love someone out of destructive behavior, with the help of Christ.

applepansy

This whole situation will give me a good chance to test this idea. :)

Thanks everyone for all of your replies. All of you had something to say that I can learn something from.

I think it is going to take a long time to get to a "happy ending" to this situation. Ashley has plenty of family members that care about her. Her whole family on her dad's side are LDS and have been trying to help. My wife and I are telling her the same things that she's hearing from the rest of her family; that she has a problem.

Her attitude right now is that she is too young to take life seriously and she is convinced that she has "plenty of time" grow up at some future date.

I had hoped that her "rock bottom" would be her car accident. Sadly, she still is not willing to recognize that she has a problem.

[georgia2]

I agree with applepansy, lillered, and where was grandma when she was getting high?

No way let this girl back in the home stoned or drunk. NO WAY let her sleep with 1st grade daughter. Sick as it may sound, you don't know what goes on in there. (TAKE MY ADVICE)

There's no better time like the present to find out the cruel consequences of stupid decisions. She has been and still is making stupid decisions. To continue to allow her to come back time after time repeating the same things are stupid decisions you and your wife are making. Are members allowed to enter the temple if they don't qualify? Aren't we told by the General authorities that our homes are temples? People on drugs and alcohol are under the influence of Satan. Plain and simple. SUre she may be a sweet and good girl underneath, but underneath is not what is showing. She's legally an adult. Your younger children need to be PROTECTED by You! Your home is a sanctuary from the world, YOU and YOUR WIFE are allowing the world to come in and destroy the peace and Spirit.

Hard to do? Yes. Smart to do? Yes. Will you be glad you did it? yes. Remember she is responsible for her free agency. YOU are responsible for yours. Your younger kids can't control what goes on in your home but you can. Protect them!

[georgia2]

Oh, and you should not be paying for he school! Studies and research SHOW THAT kids do better, make better grades, WHEN THEY PAY FOR IT THEMSELVES!

and when they have to have a part time job to pay for it, EVEN BETTER GRADES!

Listen to Suzie Orman! She has more time to pay back student loans than you have to build for your retirement. She won't be as anxious to throw away her own money.

[theBUBBAMANcan]

Thanks Georgia2...I agree with both postings! An immediate sense of peace has been restored to my home since she left.

Ashley is angry right now, but underneath she knows she has been the cause of her own misery. She CHOSE not to do her college work and she CHOSE to waste her time partying. I simply responded by CHOSING to get some control back of the household that our little kids have to live in.

[lilered]

A comment about Tough Love. In our own situation, we found our son to be very manipulative and much smarter at masking his dependency on drugs and alchol than we were at dealing with it. Finally, after many failures at this because we wanted to believe in him and did not want to bust up our family, we reached the conclusion that we were only enabling him to continue his self destruction. When we finally decided we loved him enough to allow him to make his own choices. We never stopped loving him but continuted to allow him hope that he could return if he overcome his demons. He finally hit bottom. But keep in mind, sadly some kids choose to continue to use drugs and/or alchohol and end up dieing from it despite the parents best efforts to prevent it.