Homosexuality...

[Misshalfway]

I find it interesting that so many who find themselves in the G/L lifestyle have some story from their childhoods about "not fitting in" or perhaps being treated differently.

And I have heard that it is common for people with SSA issues to have some form of sexual or other kinds of abuse in their histories.

Why is that, Oligith? Do you think this is true or would you see a link at all between feeling "different" or left out and perhaps the adversary using that as a foundation for the temptation?

I get a little confused when I hear arguments about being born gay. It seems that some don't discover their sexuality until they are older. Others experiment and have attraction to both sexes and then choose thru the experimentation process. Some are flip floppers. As a female, I know that I am attracted to men. I know what that feels like. I can't imagine having both feelings or having ONLY feelings for the same sex. I often wonder if homosexuality comes from preoccupation of thoughts because thoughts beget feelings and then feelings beget actions, etc.

I also get confused when I read, Oli in your story, how you identify with being homosexual yet you talk about it being a temptation and therefore something apart from you. If I am tempted with being angry.... do I then identify myself as an "angry person"? Saying you are tempted by something is one thing. But the labeling of oneself in such a way is confusing to me as well. If it is only a temptation, then how can it be part of ones identity?

Even though I sin, I don't identify myself by my sins or my righteousness. I am who I am. Not necessarily what I do..... or did a long time ago. I may become something sinful if I engage in sin and I may become something clean if I repent, but I am not my sins or my mistakes or even my good works. Make sense?

[jimuk]

I find it interesting that so many who find themselves in the G/L lifestyle have some story from their childhoods about "not fitting in" or perhaps being treated differently.

And I have heard that it is common for people with SSA issues to have some form of sexual or other kinds of abuse in their histories.

Why is that, Oligith? Do you think this is true or would you see a link at all between feeling "different" or left out and perhaps the adversary using that as a foundation for the temptation?

I get a little confused when I hear arguments about being born gay. It seems that some don't discover their sexuality until they are older. Others experiment and have attraction to both sexes and then choose thru the experimentation process. Some are flip floppers. As a female, I know that I am attracted to men. I know what that feels like. I can't imagine having both feelings or having ONLY feelings for the same sex. I often wonder if homosexuality comes from preoccupation of thoughts because thoughts beget feelings and then feelings beget actions, etc.

I also get confused when I read, Oli in your story, how you identify with being homosexual yet you talk about it being a temptation and therefore something apart from you. If I am tempted with being angry.... do I then identify myself as an "angry person"? Saying you are tempted by something is one thing. But the labeling of oneself in such a way is confusing to me as well. If it is only a temptation, then how can it be part of ones identity?

Even though I sin, I don't identify myself by my sins or my righteousness. I am who I am. Not necessarily what I do..... or did a long time ago. I may become something sinful if I engage in sin and I may become something clean if I repent, but I am not my sins or my mistakes or even my good works. Make sense?

Hi misshalfway.

I am sure that some guys are born this way, i am sure i am not the only person here that has thoughout my life seen some very effeminate young male children, please do not think i am being unkind to anyone, i am only stating what i have seen.

One of these children was a member of an LDS family, and a fine upstanding family i must add.

This young man is now in his twenties and yes he is a practicing Homosexual.

So you see, " yes " people can indeed be born this way.

[Misshalfway]

Hi misshalfway.

I am sure that some guys are born this way, i am sure i am not the only person here that has thoughout my life seen some very effeminate young male children, please do not think i am being unkind to anyone, i am only stating what i have seen.

One of these children was a member of an LDS family, and a fine upstanding family i must add.

This young man is now in his twenties and yes he is a practicing Homosexual.

So you see, " yes " people can indeed be born this way.

Yes. I see your point. I am not saying it can't happen. I am just wondering if this is only true for some.

[DigitalShadow]

I find it interesting that so many who find themselves in the G/L lifestyle have some story from their childhoods about "not fitting in" or perhaps being treated differently.

Ever since around Jr. High and probalby a bit earlier, talking about and pursuing the opposite sex has been a significant part of social interactions. If I did not feel the same way about the opposite sex as my peers, I can see how that would be awkward and easily lead to "not fitting in."

And I have heard that it is common for people with SSA issues to have some form of sexual or other kinds of abuse in their histories.

I would be really curious to see some statistics on that. It sounds more like a myth that people easily latch on to so they can explain homosexual behavior to themselves. But then again I am not an expert on the subject.

Why is that, Oligith? Do you think this is true or would you see a link at all between feeling "different" or left out and perhaps the adversary using that as a foundation for the temptation?

I've felt different all my life, not because of my sexual orientation though, but because of the way I look at and think about things. I haven't really noticed any temptation as a result. Maybe a bit of depression, but I know people deal with things in different ways.

I get a little confused when I hear arguments about being born gay. It seems that some don't discover their sexuality until they are older. Others experiment and have attraction to both sexes and then choose thru the experimentation process. Some are flip floppers. As a female, I know that I am attracted to men. I know what that feels like. I can't imagine having both feelings or having ONLY feelings for the same sex. I often wonder if homosexuality comes from preoccupation of thoughts because thoughts beget feelings and then feelings beget actions, etc.

I honestly don't know many gay people (or maybe I do, Utah is not exactly the most gay friendly place so they may not make it public), but I've never met anyone who "decided" to be gay later in life. I have known people who decided to make it public that they are gay even after having a wife and kids; they simply hid their sexual orientation for years because of the strong pressure to conform. From my personal experiences, the vast majority of people seem to either be attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex throughout their entire life starting at the point when kids usually start to notice the other sex.

I also get confused when I read, Oli in your story, how you identify with being homosexual yet you talk about it being a temptation and therefore something apart from you. If I am tempted with being angry.... do I then identify myself as an "angry person"? Saying you are tempted by something is one thing. But the labeling of oneself in such a way is confusing to me as well. If it is only a temptation, then how can it be part of ones identity?

Homosexuality generally refers to sexual orientation which is generally defined by which sex you find to be physically attractive and arousing. Anger is a temptation that everyone has to some extent, homosexuality is not. I don't think that calling yourself homosexual as a term to describe the sexual attraction you feel is the same as defining yourself by your temptations.

[omega0401]

Hypothetically, how do you feel about penguins without their fig leaf?

I found a fig leaf. Anyone missing a fig leaf?

[omega0401]

Oligith1, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. It certainly makes us think.

There are some people that say they are born that way. I'm not so sure. I'm having a hard time accepting that. It's like saying I was born to be an adulterer or I was born to steal or to physically torture people or animals. It's like blaming God for giving you this temptation. I believe all temptation come from Satan.

Personally I cannot answer why certain people have such strong urges. There may be many different reasons why. But I do know in my heart that Heavenly Fathers plan for mortality is perfect. We will not understand everything that happens and why, but it is perfect because our Father in Heaven is perfect. But we will learn the answers from Him when that time is right.

Oligith1, thank you for your desires to keep the commandments.

[Misshalfway]

DS, Thanks for your perspectives here.

Ever since around Jr. High and probalby a bit earlier, talking about and pursuing the opposite sex has been a significant part of social interactions. If I did not feel the same way about the opposite sex as my peers, I can see how that would be awkward and easily lead to "not fitting in."

I would agree that feeling such attractions would definitely make someone feel "different". Especially in a traditional and religiously conservative community. And I don't raise the question because I doubt they have valid feelings in this regard. I simply want to understand if there is a relationship between feeling "hurt" by social society apart from sexual differences. I am thinking of one person in particular who describes childhood in terms of "being different" but has so much hurt and bitterness concerning experience that has nothing whatsoever to do with orientation. And now describes being involved in the gay community as finally feeling accepted for who he really is in terms of personality and talent, etc. Not just being with folks who understand orientation complications.

I would be really curious to see some statistics on that. It sounds more like a myth that people easily latch on to so they can explain homosexual behavior to themselves. But then again I am not an expert on the subject

.

I got my BS in family science. It seems I read some studies on it in one of my sexual abuse classes. And a therapist friend of mine who works with these folks in group therapy shared this idea with me. Not just sexual abuse, but emotional trauma as well. I am not sure how to draw proper correlations by this or that it would even be universal. I just wonder if it is a common factor. Could it be in at least some cases, that a woman may choose to be with a woman because trusting a man seems too difficult because of trauma? I don't know. I just ask the question.

I've felt different all my life, not because of my sexual orientation though, but because of the way I look at and think about things. I haven't really noticed any temptation as a result. Maybe a bit of depression, but I know people deal with things in different ways.

Gosh. I felt different all my life too. I could list 10 reasons why. I still feel different even into adulthood. Couldn't all of us say that we felt like that at one time or another? Seeing "everyone else" as the same is well, imo, just perceptional error.

I just wonder sometimes about "how" people deal sometimes with feelings like this. I think people go to things or behaviors that make them feel better. Forget rights and wrongs. Could it be that the gay/lesbian communities are more accepting? I wonder. I wish I had more gay friends to tell you the truth. Sometimes I wonder if they would be better friends. My therapist friend shared with me that her gay clients make her feel so comfortable! She lets down some of her normal social defenses when she is with them. She said it is such a profoundly comforting experience to be with them. I wonder if this drives some of the decision to participate in homosexual activities or if it muddies the moral water for some. Again....just wondering out loud.

I honestly don't know many gay people (or maybe I do, Utah is not exactly the most gay friendly place so they may not make it public), but I've never met anyone who "decided" to be gay later in life. I have known people who decided to make it public that they are gay even after having a wife and kids; they simply hid their sexual orientation for years because of the strong pressure to conform. From my personal experiences, the vast majority of people seem to either be attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex throughout their entire life starting at the point when kids usually start to notice the other sex.

I am sure you are right that many hid the truth or tried to see if marriage would make it go away. I am sure that many have battled in silent suffering before telling the truth. And perhaps that does include the vast majority. I am still not convinced though that this means such things are genetic.

Homosexuality generally refers to sexual orientation which is generally defined by which sex you find to be physically attractive and arousing. Anger is a temptation that everyone has to some extent, homosexuality is not. I don't think that calling yourself homosexual as a term to describe the sexual attraction you feel is the same as defining yourself by your temptations.

Yes. Ok. I think that helps me a bit. Thank you.

[DigitalShadow]

I am sure you are right that many hid the truth or tried to see if marriage would make it go away. I am sure that many have battled in silent suffering before telling the truth. And perhaps that does include the vast majority. I am still not convinced though that this means such things are genetic.

One thing I would like to clarify. I don't think sexual orientation is genetic either, but I also don't think it is a conscious choice. I don't know about you, but I didn't sit down one day and decide that I would like to be attracted to the opposite sex and I imagine it is much the same for most homosexual people (this is supported by every gay/lesbian I've asked about it).

[Misshalfway]

One thing I would like to clarify. I don't think sexual orientation is genetic either, but I also don't think it is a conscious choice. I don't know about you, but I didn't sit down one day and decide that I would like to be attracted to the opposite sex and I imagine it is much the same for most homosexual people (this is supported by every gay/lesbian I've asked about it).

What a tremendously good point. Thank you. I would love to hear what Oli has to say on this.

I am trying to understand what you describe in the context of LDS teachings. I do because I believe them to be true. So, if they are correct and what Oli is describing is temptation, instead of natural sexual feelings, then I become somewhat confused. If God says this type of sexual feelings and actions are sinful, then I would imagine for those who feel these feelings as natural as I do mine would be very angry with God.

I guess I want to believe that each person would be born with correct sexual feelings just as gender was determined from before this earth life. Perhaps my understanding here needs more understanding. It is certainly being stretched.

I believe there are many "excuses" people have for acting out in sexually sinful ways. I want to understand the truth about this subject. Understand so that I can become more loving, and understand beyond rhetoric to truth so that I am centered in my view.

Thanks for listening I guess..

Edited November 11, 2008 by Misshalfway
Another thought....

[Moksha]

I found a fig leaf. Anyone missing a fig leaf?

Hand it through the monitor por favor. Must have come loose when I jumped in the deep end on another post.

[Oligith1]

Yay! Lotsa questions! Let's see what I can answer. I'll try to keep it brief because I know I like to use too many words to write sometimes.

First

Kyra,

The article you posted also says:

"Your [gay] children are welcome to stay in your home, of course, but you have every right to exclude from your dwelling any behavior that offends the Spirit of the Lord."

If the foundation of our religion is family, then it astounds me that Elder Holland would say something like this. How on earth could an LDS leader condone disowning your children? That notion disrespects the importance of family way more than homosexuality does, in my opinion.

(bold and italics added) Someone already covered this one, but Elder Holland is not telling anyone to kick any people out or disown people, but is telling parents that they have the right to limit behaviors and actions.

Just a thought. What about unclean thoughts, if a guy or girl has these thoughts before refusing oneself to act on them, is this not still a sin, and in having these thoughts towards someone of the same sex, is this the same as fulfilling ones desires.

I think this gets very complicated if one delves to deep.

thanks

The scriptures do tell us that our thoughts will condemn us, so yes, unclean thoughts (gay or hetero) are bad and sinful. Even if you do not act on those thoughts, you do still need to repent and try to never have those thoughts again. Feelings are not thoughts though. Example: You hit your thumb with a hammer. You feel pain. You think, "Ouch!" (hopefully just that) You cry, yell, scream, and otherwise express your pain (your actions).

Next one I'll do piecemeal.

I find it interesting that so many who find themselves in the G/L lifestyle have some story from their childhoods about "not fitting in" or perhaps being treated differently.

And I have heard that it is common for people with SSA issues to have some form of sexual or other kinds of abuse in their histories.

Why is that, Oligith? Do you think this is true or would you see a link at all between feeling "different" or left out and perhaps the adversary using that as a foundation for the temptation?

From what I have read of the many and various theories of why a person may end up with their SSA (Same-Sex Attraction), one of the common environmental ones is sexual abuse as a child. Another common theme in the stories professed gays share is that of "not fitting in" and just "feeling different." But I have to say that I am not an expert. I don't have a psychology degree. I'm not a research sceintist. I'm just a guy who has gone through what I've gone through and has read up on the subject.

I can give my opinions, but as I stated before, from all I've read the sources of SSA are many and varied and though there are some common themes, I couldn't tell you for certain if one thing or another is an actual source of SSA. In the end though, I still think it doesn't matter where it comes from. What really matters is what you do with the feelings when they come.

As far as

I also get confused when I read, Oli in your story, how you identify with being homosexual yet you talk about it being a temptation and therefore something apart from you. If I am tempted with being angry.... do I then identify myself as an "angry person"? Saying you are tempted by something is one thing. But the labeling of oneself in such a way is confusing to me as well. If it is only a temptation, then how can it be part of ones identity?

It's a very good question and one I was hoping would be asked. Is it confusing? You betcha! Define a word in two very different ways and then hold a conversation. The only thing that will result is confusion. Especially if you can't figure out what each person means by the word through context.

I think the best example for this would be the term "mad." In one definition it means angry. In another it means crazy or insane. If you say, "That man is mad" it is really hard to tell if the speaker means that the person is crazy or just angry without more information. I probably could come up with an entire paragraph in which you could use either meaning and it would still make sense either way. I won't, because I'm trying to be concise.

Unfortunately, the terms "Homosexuality" or "being Gay" or "being Lesbian" are all now similar to the term "mad" in that through common usage of the terms by people from two distinct points of view, you could have an entire conversation and completely misunderstand each other. I'm glad the term same-sex attraction (SSA) has come up in recent times because that term, for now, is still clear.

As for my story, I said that using one definition I am Gay -- the one where Homosexuality is merely having an attraction to others of your own gender (SSA) -- and yet I am not Gay -- the one where Homosexuality is not only having SSA but also acting on those feelings through your thoughts and actions. I'm not trying to confuse you. I'm trying to clarify the confusion that already existed.

Now, if I met you on the street and I wasn't being all analytical, I would say that I am not Gay. Personally, I don't usually apply that label to myself. Why? Because I choose not to, that's why.

Hi misshalfway.

I am sure that some guys are born this way, i am sure i am not the only person here that has thoughout my life seen some very effeminate young male children, please do not think i am being unkind to anyone, i am only stating what i have seen.

One of these children was a member of an LDS family, and a fine upstanding family i must add.

This young man is now in his twenties and yes he is a practicing Homosexual.

So you see, " yes " people can indeed be born this way.

Jimuk, in some ways I was very effeminate as a young boy too...still am in fact. I love to cook, sew, crochet, sing, and the like and have no interest in cars, sports, and most things that guys stereotypically are supposed to prefer. Perhaps this is a way to identify someone who might struggle with the temptation early, but in the end, SSA is still just a temptation and can be denied and controlled. People may be born with the temptation perhaps, but that still does not eliminate their ability to choose not to give heed to it.

One thing I would like to clarify. I don't think sexual orientation is genetic either, but I also don't think it is a conscious choice. I don't know about you, but I didn't sit down one day and decide that I would like to be attracted to the opposite sex and I imagine it is much the same for most homosexual people (this is supported by every gay/lesbian I've asked about it).

Sexual orientation is another of those terms which can be, and is, used to mean both just the attraction (as you used it here to mean) as well as the behavior. I just want to point that out. That said, I agree with you. Same-sex attraction and opposite-sex attraction, whatever their sources, don't really seem to be choices, but what you do with that attraction is a choice.

What a tremendously good point. Thank you. I would love to hear what Oli has to say on this.

I am trying to understand what you describe in the context of LDS teachings. I do because I believe them to be true. So, if they are correct and what Oli is describing is temptation, instead of natural sexual feelings, then I become somewhat confused. If God says this type of sexual feelings and actions are sinful, then I would imagine for those who feel these feelings as natural as I do mine would be very angry with God.

I guess I want to believe that each person would be born with correct sexual feelings just as gender was determined from before this earth life. Perhaps my understanding here needs more understanding. It is certainly being stretched.

I believe there are many "excuses" people have for acting out in sexually sinful ways. I want to understand the truth about this subject. Understand so that I can become more loving, and understand beyond rhetoric to truth so that I am centered in my view.

Thanks for listening I guess..

Once again, the distinction between feelings, thoughts, and actions needs to be stressed. As I stated above, they are seperate and different things.

Feelings are the level where our impulses are, our natural pushing to do one thing or another, our instincts. It is where pain, hunger, fatigue, lust, anger, and a myriad of other base emotions are. While we can't choose our feelings, we can control them. Just because we are hungry does not mean we have no choice but to eat. Just because we are in pain does not mean that we have to scream. Just because we are lustful towards someone does not mean that we have to even entertain thoughts about them. And so forth.

Thoughts are the level where we analyze the various stimuli of our feelings, our environment, the situations we find ourselves in, people we are around, what we see, hear, touch, and so many more inputs and make decisions based on our thoughts. This is where we can decide to give in to our feelings or not. Of course in our thoughts we have the conscious and subconscious, imagination and dreams, and such. And while we are not accountable for our subconscious decisions, we generally do not act while sleeping, though if you are a sleepwalker, I really don't think you are accountable for your actions when you are actually sleepwalking.

Actions...well...those are obvious.

As far as wanting people to be born with "correct" sexual feelings (I assume you mean opposite-sex attraction) we don't know for certain that we aren't. In the end though, it does not matter if we are or not. If SSA comes only from environmental stimuli, it does not negate that SSA still is a reality that some people have to deal with every day. Whatever the source of the temptation, it's there, it's just up to us to choose if we let it rule us or not.

Ok. That's every question from when I started this post up to now. I do hope it helps.

[omega0401]

Hand it through the monitor por favor. Must have come loose when I jumped in the deep end on another post.

I tried but it won't fit through my 19 inch monitor.

[skalenfehl]

Oligith1, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. It certainly makes us think.

There are some people that say they are born that way. I'm not so sure. I'm having a hard time accepting that. It's like saying I was born to be an adulterer or I was born to steal or to physically torture people or animals. It's like blaming God for giving you this temptation. I believe all temptation come from Satan.

I think you are partially correct, for we know that man by nature is carnal and an enemy of God. We may not be born alcoholics, adulterers, etc, but I'm not so sure. Consider the following scripture in the Book of Mormon:

Ether 12: 27

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

I don't believe God gives us temptations. But I do believe He gives us weaknesses. I certainly have mine. Consider the scripture in the Bible where Jesus went up into the mountain:

Matt. 4: 1-11

1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

NOTE: In the Joseph Smith Translation, it says that Christ went into the wilderness "to be with God."

Christ did NOT go to be tempted. Nobody seeks out Satan, or rather no righteous person seeks to be tempted. It just doesn't happen. My point is that Satan seeks to tempt us by exposing our weaknesses in the most attractive means possible, as he tried with Christ.

Whether or not people are born gay or not, I won't speculate. It is pointless to speculate. I do believe that we all have our weaknesses and we also have the power to overcome those weaknesses. The Lord will have a tested people. It is in triumphing over the things, which we know are sinful, that gives us great strength as promised in the scriptures.

Had Christ given in to temptation, He would have lost all. We would have been lost, as Christ would also have passed up the bitter cup. While His flesh was weak in partaking of His cup and atoning for our sins, His spirit was strong and was victorious over His flesh. So too, must we be victorious in spirit to overcome the flesh.

Just my two cents.

Edit: I feel the need to emphasize that God doesn't create adulterers, alcoholics, etc. but whatever weaknesses we have end up manifesting themselves in whatever temptations we yield to because of our weaknesses. I hope this makes sense.

Edited November 13, 2008 by skalenfehl

[omega0401]

Edit: I feel the need to emphasize that God doesn't create adulterers, alcoholics, etc. but whatever weaknesses we have end up manifesting themselves in whatever temptations we yield to because of our weaknesses. I hope this makes sense.

It does makes sense. It is interesting that Satan gives temptations unto men that they might sin and move further from God. God gives weakness unto men that they might be humble and to grow closer to Him.

[Kyra]

Edit: I feel the need to emphasize that God doesn't create adulterers, alcoholics, etc. but whatever weaknesses we have end up manifesting themselves in whatever temptations we yield to because of our weaknesses. I hope this makes sense.

It makes perfect sense. I've never thought of it quite like that, but that's a very good way of explaining things.

[Moksha]

I tried but it won't fit through my 19 inch monitor.

Yeah, I know, but with cold weather approaching, I can get by with a smaller fig leaf.

[MorningStar]

Wow, thanks for sharing! :)

[KristofferUmfrey]

Bravo! Excellent thoughts, Ogilith!