Constitution Hanging by a Thread

[Fugazi]

I confused about the historical context of this. As I understand it, Joseph Smith never made it to Utah. In fact, Paradise, Utah didn't exist until 1860(ish). That's 15 years after President Smith's death.

Elder John J Roberts is of Paradise, UT. However, he wrote about the prophesy in his journal. He was never told by Joseph Smith himself though.

There is a reference of the journal excerpt in the Rudger Clawson Papers. In which, I found on the UofU online staff library.

[rayhale]

Is it just me, or does this prophecy sound like the church, will overthrow the Government?

[Hemidakota]

I suspect the righteous of this land; we will have to put down the same government that our forefathers began over 231 years ago. We are living the day that was same problem described in 4th Nephi concerning the take over by the secret band that allow debauchery to reign.

[eternalsearcher]

The Constitution is like the Bible, not open to private interpretation. There are thousands of interpretations of the Bible, but not correct ones. The Constitution means what it was meant to mean when it was written and one can understand it's original intent by reading the noted of the founders and their statements of intent. Notes on the Convention of 1787, The Federalist Papers, The Anti-Federalist Papers, are good places to start.

I'm going to have to do some checking on this version of the White Horse Prophecy. I've read others with which this does not match.

[Moksha]

I'm going to have to do some checking on this version of the White Horse Prophecy. I've read others with which this does not match.

Urban legends can have altered details depending upon the teller. The only thing we know for sure is that rats like to camouflage themselves with the KFC original recipe batter, before committing ritual suicide in the deep fryer.

[celticgirl2000]

you read this Joseph Smith saw from the teachings of Joseph Smith?

[georgia2]

the great LDS scholar Bruce R. McConkie, says the prophesy per se is false.

[AngelLynn]

I've wondered about this as well. I've never heard anything about "White Horse" so the stuff that was posted I knew very little about. The only thing I've heard was the part concerning the constitution hanging by a thread and the Elders of the church saving it. So is this false or is it true. Because that's the only thing I've ever heard. Nothing more or nothing less.

[Aesa]

Well, it's slowly being destroyed.

At least, the elites are trying.

But it's anyone's guess - anyone could predict men trying to take people's liberties away.

[Hemidakota]

We entering a phase of the same course our own government is taking that the Nephites witnessed in their last days.

[onlooker]

Here is my take on this stuff, the church is not going to make everything doctrine that is written, however I don't think the church is calling him a lier. Do I think Joseph Smith had a conversation with this man about this topic...Yes, Do I think that everything in the "Prophecy" is true? No....but I have seen just about every major bank in the world fail.....no collapse. An what about this letter written to someone regarding the topic they discussed with Joseph Smith

Second Great Rebellion (Chicago) Quote

A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives. It is a letter from

Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896:

"... My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph

say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the

rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860's between the North and the

South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that

time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother

told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble

of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the

United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short

and concise manner as possible."

Another quote regarding the Civil War itself comes from an interview

by Dr. Poulson with David Whitmer, printed in the Deseret News on

Friday, August 16, 1878:

Question: When will the temple be built in Independence?

Answer: Right after the great tribulation is over

Question: What do you mean by that?

Answer: A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. It will

be the smashing up of this nation, about which time the second great

work has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of

the sealed plates and peace all over

WHAT!!! "the next great trouble

of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the

United States." How would somebody just think of something like that a put it in their journal? This is happening right now, or in the next couple yrs.

And yet another Prophecy:

The Hancock Prophecy

There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be

called the Republican, and the other the Democrat

party. These two parties will go to war and out of these two parties

will spring another party which will be the

Independent American [sic] Party. The United States will spend her

strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will

say, "Let's divide up the lands of the United States," then the people

of the U.S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers

that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war,

and they will fight until one half of the U.S. Army will give up, and

the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are

very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up - when the

boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American

Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, "Brethren, we are glad

you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God." Then

you will have friends, but you will save the country when it's [sic]

liberty hangs by a hair, as it were.

- Prophet and presidential candidate Joseph Smith, 19 June 1844, as

recorded in the autobiography of Mosiah Lyman Hancock. See Duane S.

Crowther, Prophecy - Key to the Future, p. 10.

Now I'm sure JS talked to people about lots of things he saw, I take everything with a grain of salt and just hang on to it.

[nimrod]

The White Horse Prophecy AS many understand it IS called into question. Sources have already been posted on this.

However, the fact that Joseph Smith made comments regarding the constitution hanging by a thread and that the elders and/or church would save it is well documented. Several witnesses have recorded it.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - I Have a Question

You must scroll to the bottom of this article.

[Hemidakota]

The first prophecy was unproved and as we already do know, the second has been spoken often by the prophet. As I still use it today when explaining our future is not a bright one.

Thanks

Regards with the Hancock prophesy, all I can say, I had a dream about that and perhaps, there is some truths there. But what I saw at first was a Chinese person and then the United Europe under a German flag. They first came with there navies, then airborne forces. THey finally gave up and left. As I did see when the United States crumbled, many flee to the mountains for protection.

"Who ever has ear, let him hear."

[boyando]

Prophecy or not, we do have a obligation to fight against evil and hold up that constitution that we know was given as a gift, from our Father in Heaven, hanging by a thread or not.

My personal feelings are that we are not, as Latterday Saints, living up to that obligation. I see today as a day were men call good evil and evil good. Here are just a few of the things that I Think are unconstitutional and we look the other way, because we think it is for the common good.

1-Judges at every level creating law instead of interrupting the law.

2-A Press that will beat the drum on some things and ignore other things to create public opinion.

3-The lack of a strong Republican party, and there for a lack of debate of idea's.

4-More and more people who believe that our government can solve new problems, even before they show that they have fixed the old, by throwing money at the problem.

[georgia2]

We entering a phase of the same course our own government is taking that the Nephites witnessed in their last days.

I think the Book of Mormon is a guide, a key to these latter days.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. If you will read what is supposed to proceed the second coming, then go read what happened before Christ appeared to the Nephites, it is the same thing. Also, remember when it says that the people who saved their treasures and buried them, they became slippery and they could not find them when they went to get them? The only ones who would be safe where those who buried their treasure unto the Lord.

What is a better way to describe putting all your trust in the financial wizards and putting all your savings and retirement savings with them and the market instead of paying off their debts, storing food and resources for what is to come?

Brigham Young once said that in the latter days a barrel of wheat would be worth more than a barrel of gold.

[Hemidakota]

Georgia...totally agreed.

Deseretgov, what is your gut feeling if Mexico collapse as a government, what effect would it have with our country? Should we annex the country as part of the union?

[teddyk]

America is hanging by a thread, my new year resolution is to love my new President, and to work with him, I now see traits in Obama that make a great President, we need to put a way our childish divisions, and work together to save as many as possible from a fate worse than death...I did not vote for him, but I think its what Jesus would want us to do.

[georgia2]

I sure hope he can pull off what everybody else thinks he can!

I think his first day in office shows great potential! Hip hip HORAY him getting rid of the lobbyist!

With the things going on now the second coming COULD be VERY near, BUT, I don't think so.

I have a mission to complete! Water has to run from under the temple in Jerusalem down to the Dead Sea. My kids patriarchal blessings say they have much more to happen! I'm looking forward to it but I'm afraid it is going to much much worse.

[Hemidakota]

Not only that, I can see a pattern of certain number that is associated to a group of people that will give some credence on a time frame.

[georgia2]

Not only that, I can see a pattern of certain number that is associated to a group of people that will give some credence on a time frame.

Come on, speak up! No more coded messages! :monkey:

[Hemidakota]

What drives this world?

[FunkyTown]

What drives this world?

An engine. No! No! A driver.

Am I right? Did I get the prize?

[Elphaba]

Here are just a few of the things that I Think are unconstitutional and we look the other way, because we think it is for the common good.

1-Judges at every level creating law instead of interrupting the law.

Judges do not create law: they interpret whether the law is constitutional or not.

For example, in 1879, the Plessy v. Ferguson case, which ruled that segregation was legal, made its way to the SCOTUS, which upheld that ruling, thus agreeing segregation was constitutional.

Then, in 1954, Brown v. Board of Education challenged the precedent set by Plessy. Brown stated segregation was unconstitutional, and the SCOTUS upheld the Brown ruling. So, you can see the SCOTUS can change its mind, but it does not make laws. It interprets their constitutionality.

No matter whether the SCOTUS upholds a ruling or not, millions of people are going to disagree with it, and millions of people will not. That's just the nature of the beast. But you'd be surprised how often a judge rules against his/her personal belief system.

2-A Press that will beat the drum on some things and ignore other things to create public opinion.

I assume you mean "interpret," and yes, the press can do the above, as the First Amendment protects its freedom of speech. You can disagree with what the press writes, but you can't take away its right to write it.

3-The lack of a strong Republican party, and there for a lack of debate of idea's.

The Constitution says nothing about political parties whatsoever.

Hypothetically, if it did, the Republican party was not created until 1854, so obviously the Constitution would have said nothing about it anyway.

But it is a moot point, as, again, the Constitution says nothing about political parties at all.

On a personal note regarding an exchange of ideas, it is the Republican party’s fault it has imploded in on itself, and part of the reason is it has not allowed an “exchange of ideas“ for almost eight years now.

It allowed Bush to refuse to implement the transparency of government, which is necessary to a functioning republic/democracy. Instead, it created a government that thought itself entitled to operate in secret. The doctrine of “state secrets” is invoked to justify abuses that are against the Constitution and the law.

For example, the Bush administration wrote hundreds of “signing statements,” that explicitly insist it will not enforce sections of the law it finds disagreeable.

The Bush administration then proceeded to ignore the law, or circumvent it with internal legal opinions that state the opposite of what the law says and intends, which does not encourage trust in those who are committed to the rule of law, including his fellow Republicans.

The Democratic Party is certainly not blameless, as it sat back and watched its right, and our rights, crumble, while the GOP accepted Bush’s actions, or at least until it became anathema to support Bush.

Even the leaders of the Republican party agree with you, and they are trying to come up with ways to redesign the party, hoping a Phoenix will rise from the ashes. I hope it does as well, because I agree with you that an exchange of ideas benefits us all.

4-More and more people who believe that our government can solve new problems, even before they show that they have fixed the old, by throwing money at the problem.

People have a Constitutional right to believe whatever they want to believe. You also have a constitutional right to not like what they believe.

I understand these are things you feel passionate about; however, none of them are protected by the Constitution.

Elphaba

Edited January 23, 2009 by Elphaba
Changed "1954" to "1854."

[bytor2112]

America is hanging by a thread, my new year resolution is to love my new President, and to work with him, I now see traits in Obama that make a great President, we need to put a way our childish divisions, and work together to save as many as possible from a fate worse than death...I did not vote for him, but I think its what Jesus would want us to do.

America is not hanging by a thread and the divisions are not childish, they are legitimate differences of opinion regarding the role of the US government. I see traits in Obama that might make him a great President if you subscribe to his politics....I don't and a great many others do not as well.

America will recover from recession, the sky isn't falling and it will recover inspite of the morons in D.C., Republican and Democrat alike.

[onlooker]

I would disagree with the above statement, I don't believe that much of what we are doing right now is being dictated by the Constitution, but more of our circumstance and how GOVERNMENT thinks things could be resolved. Yes the constitution is hanging by a thread, when you have the chair of the FED discussing essentially the prospects of a world currency...the constitution is hanging by a thread.

Moreover, I don't see any indication that we are going to recover from this recession, we are breaking records everyday. Have you seen the expansion of the money supply? Do you not see the riots taking place all over the world. If you look at the headlines of just today, you will see that this is not a mere recession, this will be a depression....AND THATS JUST THE ECONOMIC SIDE OF IT.....What if:

1. Another Katrina hits this year or next

2. Al Qaeda strikes this year or next

3. Major floods decimate Corn and Potato crops

4. Russia and Iran try to do something against Israel for the US

5. A major earthquake erupts

6. China decides to sell of the 1.5 Trillion of T-bills they are holding

There are so many facets to this DEPRESSION, It is the perfect storm set up.

Check this out

You don't recover from this without first collapsing.

Oops and I didn't even mention the spiritual aspect of the times that we live in. The 7000yr period where 3 things happen.

1. 25 to 30 year period at the opening of the 7000 yr period for cleansing the earth.

2. Christ returns

3. Millennium begins...Remember the Millennium is a 1000yrs...and were 9 yrs into that period.