Christ in the Book of Mormon

[August]

So I decided a while ago to read the Book of Mormon, since I've become very interested in Mormonism and Joseph Smith. I just finished Jacob, so I've got a ways.

Anyway, what has struck me is how explicit the text is in prophecying the coming of Christ. It's different than the Old Testement, where the Messiah is prophecied, but in a much less specific way. If the BOM were true, it would mean that God revealed Christ's coming very explicitly to the Jews in America, but the Jews in Israel didn't recieve such explicit instructions. How do you interpret this difference?

And tell me if my timeline is correct, I thought that the Nephites left Israel after the books of the Old Testament were written.

[deseretgov]

Maybe a different system of keeping records? Maybe God just had a different purpose in mind for them

Yes Lehi and His family left after the texts Old Testament were written.

[rampion]

The people in the BOM must have been ready for more than the ones in Jerusalem, so they were given more. But where much is given, much is expected. They didn't always live up to what they knew and what they had, with serious consequences.

There were also some later books in the Old Testament, such as Malachi, which were written after Lehi left Jerusalem. But Lehi and his family had most of the Old Testament, including Isaiah, obviously. And when Jesus visited after the ressurection, He gave them a bit more (parts of Malachi, etc.)

[Elgama]

I think personally there are 2 reasons:

1) The Ancient Hebrews did have a greater knowledge of Christ but they lost it, as Latter Day Saints the plan of salavation seems to have been taught more explicitly to Adam through Abraham at least than it was to later generations

2) Book of Mormon people had to believe in events that were happening halfway across the world/

-Charley

[IronLion]

So I decided a while ago to read the Book of Mormon, since I've become very interested in Mormonism and Joseph Smith. I just finished Jacob, so I've got a ways.

Anyway, what has struck me is how explicit the text is in prophecying the coming of Christ. It's different than the Old Testement, where the Messiah is prophecied, but in a much less specific way. If the BOM were true, it would mean that God revealed Christ's coming very explicitly to the Jews in America, but the Jews in Israel didn't recieve such explicit instructions. How do you interpret this difference?

And tell me if my timeline is correct, I thought that the Nephites left Israel after the books of the Old Testament were written.

this has been my biggest hurdle with the LDS church. Often i feel that things in the BOM seem too obvious but then something inside still tells me its the truth. Im interested to see peoples opinions. I dont have an answer for you.

[mnn727]

Yes Lehi and His family left after the texts Old Testament were written.

Thats not quite right, the first half (or so) of the O.T. had been written, but not the latter books

As far as why isn't the O.T. more explicet about Christ -- IMHO Israel had a history of rejecting the Prophets, the Nephites did not.

Edited November 13, 2008 by mnn727

[a-train]

The answer really is Elgama's first answer. The Old World Jews DID have very explicit information about the Saviour that is not found in our Old Testaments today.

The Mormon view of history is one of dispensations. God gives tremendous detail and revelation to the world which dwindles over time until it is necessary for God to do so again in order to restore information that has been lost. This process has been a continually repeated cycle from the beginning.

The Saviour's birth among the Jews was amidst a lost and confused generation. Years of lies and deception had immersed the people in ignorance. They were living under a long legacy of such lies and deception which came from "spiritual" leadership.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:27-33)

Satan's work has always been to establish by way of temptations of power: false priests who seek to hide the truth and mislead the people through lies and the abandonment of true revelation. They speak evil of the living oracles of God and take up their position as spiritual leaders only to aggrandize themselves. The scribes and Pharisees were the heirs of a legacy of such lies and suppression of the truth. Even they themselves were in the dark:

they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Matthew 15:14)

The result of this is the loss of once known information which is ultimately restored by God. In Jesus was a new dispensation to the Jews wherein much that was lost was restored. So also was the Restoration in our times through the prophet Joseph Smith.

-a-train

Edited November 13, 2008 by a-train

[skalenfehl]

Indeed, the ancient Hebrews, knew explicitly about Christ, or at least most would have if they were not so hard hearted in turning away from the prophets and killing them. Prophets such as Isaiah knew that Christ would come and what His mission would be. Prophets continually tried prophecying to the people but were continually rejected. Even when Moses delivered the Israelites out of Egypt they rejected God and wandered the desert for 40 years on a journey that could easily have only taken months or even a few years at most. On one instance, all they had to do to prove their faith and be healed was to look up and simply look at a brazen serpent, but they would not.

Many prophets came prophecying in Jerusalem but were killed. Then in 600 BC about the time of King Zedekiah, Lehi was one such prophet who did the same, but escaped with is family to the new world, which you read about in the Book of Mormon.

[bytor2112]

The Boof of Mormon was written for our day and time.........

We must make the Book of Mormon a center focus of study because it was written for our day. The Nephites never had the book, neither did the Lamanites of ancient times. It was meant for us. Mormon wrote near the end of the Nephite civilization. Under the inspiration of God, who sees all things from the beginning, he abridged centuries of records, choosing the stories, speeches, and events that would be most helpful to us.- Predident Ezra Taft Benson

[Guest ceeboo]

The Boof of Mormon was written for our day and time.........

Good morning my friend, bytor :)

Please forgive my ignorance, is the Boof of Mormon a revised writting of the Book of Mormon ?? Or is it something else all together ??

[Misshalfway]

Yes, the Nephites left Jerusalem after the Old Testament. They had some of those writings.....the brass plates they went back to get from Laban.

And just for added interest, there are three migrations of note in the BofM. 1) Nephites around 600bc, 2) Mullekites, right around the same time, and 3) Jaredites, 2200 bc tower of babel (book of Ether) came much earlier. Their civilization came and went before the Nephites arrived in America.

[BenRaines]

I think that the writings that were taken by Lehi and his family were up to around the time of Jeremiah. Since it was about 600 years before the birth of Christ and Malachi ends about 500 years before the birth of Christ it would include most of the Old Testament writings.

Remember that there was no Old Testament yet, just the writings of the prophets during the time before Christ. Books were not in any particular order other than the first five books, the writings of Moses.

Ben Raines

[bytor2112]

Good morning my friend, bytor :)

Please forgive my ignorance, is the Boof of Mormon a revised writting of the Book of Mormon ?? Or is it something else all together ??

Not at all Ceeboo.......the Book of Mormon prophets kept the records for future generations....specifically our generation...to be brought forward in the last day. The records were compiled and abridged by a Prophet- Historian named Mormon.

"Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ."

[Guest ceeboo]

Not at all Ceeboo.......the Book of Mormon prophets kept the records for future generations....specifically our generation...to be brought forward in the last day. The records were compiled and abridged by a Prophet- Historian named Mormon.

"Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ."

Bytor,

Although I very much appreciate that, I have been around all you special Mormons long enough to have understood that. :)

I think you may have missed my " bad attempt " at humor.

I was kidding you because you spelled Book " Boof ". in your post.

[pam]

Good morning my friend, bytor :)

Please forgive my ignorance, is the Boof of Mormon a revised writting of the Book of Mormon ?? Or is it something else all together ??

[rameumptom]

Nephites left Israel/Jerusalem in 600 BC, during Jeremiah's time. The last Old Testament prophet is Malachi (400 BC).

There is strong evidence that from Isaiah on, there was a growing Christology among the Jews/Israel. Christ - anointed one, or Messiah. The concept of the Angel of the Presence of God/Messiah was very strong during Jeremiah's time, as well. Old Testament scholar and Methodist preacher, Margaret Barker speaks on this time period in several of her books.

The Christology in the Book of Mormon doesn't just appear suddenly in its fullness. It grows slowly, beginning with Lehi's vision in 1 Nephi 1. This vision is very alike the vision that Isaiah had in the Ascension of Isaiah text.

Both prophets see the throne of God, with Christ descending the levels of heaven (yes, levels) until he comes to earth. The 12 apostles figure prominently in both, as well as a book that both must read and then prophesy from. While the Ascension of Isaiah is a Jewish work that was worked over by early Christians (or so we are told by modern scholars), the concepts that tie the two together is very compelling. Early Christians believed that Isaiah knew much more about Christ than we find in the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament. Why didn't he reveal more? The chance is that he tried, but much of it was muted or destroyed by the Deuteronomists in Jeremiah's day.

According to Margaret Barker and others, the Deuteronomists changed the temple rite, removing concepts such as the Tree of Life, Abrahamic sacrifices in the wilderness, and angelic visitations (see Lehi/Nephi's Vision of the Tree of Life 2 Ne 8-15 as a wilderness temple experience). Jeremiah condemned the Temple Priests/Deuteronomists for their tampering with the old things. He brought in the Rekhabites, who lived as bedouin and followers of Abraham in the wilderness, and Jeremiah praised them for keeping the old ways, rather than twisting all things into a new and dead temple experience.

For Jeremiah, Lehi and others, the Josian reforms were not necessarily a good thing. The Israelites were going too far into worshipping idols and changing the ancient rites. The Deuteronomists went too far in the other direction, ending the sacrifices to Yahweh in the wilderness, ending the honoring of Yahweh's consort (Asherah, represented by the Tree of Life), etc. Jeremiah condemned the worship of the mother of heaven, but only because it was replacing the worship of God.

[rameumptom]

Ceeboo,

The Book of Mormon gold plates were written by Mormon and Moroni - the last of the Nephite prophets. They took the writings of their forebears and compiled them into one tome. Nephites did not read the gold plates, as they were not meant for them. The gold plates were written for a future people to read, after the Nephites were destroyed.

So, while much of the writing would have been beneficial to a Nephite, it was focused on helping future peoples from making the same mistakes they had made. It encourages the Gentiles that replaced them in the Americas to believe in and come unto Christ. It warns of sin, especially secret combinations and groups that seek to get gain and glory of the world. And it shows that even powerful nations can fall and be destroyed if they stop following God.

Of course, this is just a very short synopsis of a 500+ page book....

Oops, I guess I should read all the comments before commenting. Ceeboo, I see you were spoofing a misspell. Ignore this post if you wish. We can all go back to sleep now.

Edited November 13, 2008 by rameumptom

[KristofferUmfrey]

So I decided a while ago to read the Book of Mormon, since I've become very interested in Mormonism and Joseph Smith. I just finished Jacob, so I've got a ways.

Anyway, what has struck me is how explicit the text is in prophecying the coming of Christ. It's different than the Old Testement, where the Messiah is prophecied, but in a much less specific way. If the BOM were true, it would mean that God revealed Christ's coming very explicitly to the Jews in America, but the Jews in Israel didn't recieve such explicit instructions. How do you interpret this difference?

And tell me if my timeline is correct, I thought that the Nephites left Israel after the books of the Old Testament were written.

The Jews weren't as spiritually prepared to receive greater insight into His coming as the Nephites of the Book of Mormon.

Keep in mind also there are verses in the NT that indicate they knew more about His coming then the OT indicates. (It's late I'll look it up tommorrow)

I'm sure (I hope) this has been said... The Nephites (Lehites, technically) left Jerusalem 600 years before Christ, Malachi was written about 300 years before Christ.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Ceeboo,

The Book of Mormon gold plates were written by Mormon and Moroni - the last of the Nephite prophets. They took the writings of their forebears and compiled them into one tome. Nephites did not read the gold plates, as they were not meant for them. The gold plates were written for a future people to read, after the Nephites were destroyed.

So, while much of the writing would have been beneficial to a Nephite, it was focused on helping future peoples from making the same mistakes they had made. It encourages the Gentiles that replaced them in the Americas to believe in and come unto Christ. It warns of sin, especially secret combinations and groups that seek to get gain and glory of the world. And it shows that even powerful nations can fall and be destroyed if they stop following God.

Of course, this is just a very short synopsis of a 500+ page book....

Oops, I guess I should read all the comments before commenting. Ceeboo, I see you were spoofing a misspell. Ignore this post if you wish. We can all go back to sleep now.

"Appearance of gold". The Nephite writers only say "ore" or "metal" when referring to the plates, which could be any metal or combination of metals. As anti-Mormon critics have pointed out pure gold plates would be nigh impossible for Joseph to carry the night he retrieved them, no matter how good of a stick-puller he was

[rameumptom]

Yes, appearance of gold. It is presumed by LDS scholars today that it was a gold alloy of some sort.

[mnn727]

"Appearance of gold". The Nephite writers only say "ore" or "metal" when referring to the plates, which could be any metal or combination of metals. As anti-Mormon critics have pointed out pure gold plates would be nigh impossible for Joseph to carry the night he retrieved them, no matter how good of a stick-puller he was

I agree with you they were not pure gold and no one in the Church has ever said they were. However as far as lifting them, they were leaves not solid. Think a few hundred sheets of heavy duty tin foil.

Best estimates are under 60 pounds. Very carryable, especially for someone used to farm work in the 1800's.

[August]

The Jews weren't as spiritually prepared to receive greater insight into His coming as the Nephites of the Book of Mormon.

Keep in mind also there are verses in the NT that indicate they knew more about His coming then the OT indicates. (It's late I'll look it up tommorrow)

Why weren't the Jews as prepared, do you have specific reasons for this belief?

And which verses do you mean? I'd be interested to know.

[skalenfehl]

I believe the Jews were too busy worrying about the letter of the law and completely missed the spirit of the law.

The prime example is their waiting of the Messiah to come down from the heavens in all His glory to deliver them from their oppressors. They overshot the mark. Instead of awaiting the Savior to come down in the flesh to fulfill the law of Moses, they awaited the Son of God who would come down as prophesied will happen at His second coming. No wonder they considered the son of a carpenter some kind of blasphemer and derided Him and crucified Him as a common thief.

Another example is their deliverance from the Egyptians by Moses and wandering the desert for 40 years when the promised land was a mere weeks away, if not months. That's another long story with more examples of how quickly they forgot who's power it was that preserved them.

Just two name two.

[Islander]

So I decided a while ago to read the Book of Mormon, since I've become very interested in Mormonism and Joseph Smith. I just finished Jacob, so I've got a ways.

Anyway, what has struck me is how explicit the text is in prophecying the coming of Christ. It's different than the Old Testement, where the Messiah is prophecied, but in a much less specific way. If the BOM were true, it would mean that God revealed Christ's coming very explicitly to the Jews in America, but the Jews in Israel didn't recieve such explicit instructions. How do you interpret this difference?

And tell me if my timeline is correct, I thought that the Nephites left Israel after the books of the Old Testament were written.

As mentioned before, record keeping may have played a significant role in what texts were available in Meso_America vs Israel. The bible mentions books of which we have, up to date, no record other than passing reference.

It is also not clear if more detailed and transparent references to Christ/Messiah from the Old Testament were taken out. Isaiah seems to preserve the more clear reference to the Savior for Christians although modern Jews do not see it that way.

But yes, The Book of Mormon presents a testimony of Christ without ambiguity, with the clarity, specificity, detail and conviction not present in the bible.

[Islander]

Why weren't the Jews as prepared, do you have specific reasons for this belief?

And which verses do you mean? I'd be interested to know.

Also, it is clear that the Lord knew and understood that it would be thru the Gentiles that the Testimony of Christ should be preserved and come forth:

Isaiah 42:6,

49

56 (My favorite)

60

66: 12, 19

Rom 16 is a transliterated (Esaias) form for Isaiah.

The references to the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon are much more specific, but I will not spoil the fun for you. Just keep reading.

These are clear references to the fact that the Gentiles (also see the nations) would inherit the covenant. That they would be partakers of the blessings promised by God, that it would be them that would come to the rescue of Israel and join with Israel to worship and glorify the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It would be the Gentiles who recognize the hand of God in the signs and wonders and Messiah/Christ would be the light and they would be drawn onto him.