Do you really concur with these statements?

[hordak]

"We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were to do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves." Joseph Smith in the "Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Bytor, he's not arguing that the Bishop would (or not) be accountable for the wrong counsel, but whether or not you are accountable for the action you took after his counsel.

SeattleTruthSeeker, your example necessitates that your boss definitively knows better than you do, and his way is the absolute most efficient (and therefore, for this purpose, the right) way. I can give examples where I know better than the President of where I work, believe you me. (*Sigh* Some of the requests I get in ... oy.)

What KristofferUmfrey is asking is whether or not we believe that the church leaders (I note he didn't say Prophet) definitively know better, and their ways are absolutely the right way(s).

I do believe in personal accountability.

Recently, my fiance and I have met with the Bishop to discuss our situation. We are living together and have lived together most of our relationship. This is mainly due to the fact that I had lost my job and was evicted out of my apartment because I could not find a job. Is the living arrangements wrong for us? Yes. Has the Bishop made this clear to the both of us? Yes. Does he think we should keep our relationship going and one of us separate from the apartment? No. Why is that? Because, (and not to justify why we are living together) we are already operating as a "family" unit. In that, she has a son and we have taken in her two younger niece and nephew because of the state taking them away from the mother. I work full time, she works full time. We are busy any given moment of any given day. Our finances are pooled into one account and the bills are payed. We discuss major financial situations, share in the responsibilities of caring for the children and providing for them. Did he challenge us and set a date of when two things should happen? Yes, and we are proactive about getting those two things accomplished. Marriage will happen on January 3 and we both are starting to figure a way to attend church.

We do have good home teaches and she has good visiting teachers who come on a regular basis and speak with us.

Now, with that said, I understand that different circumstances have different outcomes. The only thing is to take what is being said and discussed (unless it is obvious and blatantly wrong) to prayer and seek out Heavenly Fathers will. Most of the time, the direction and council should be adhered too.

And, to be honest, I have not read, nor heard of any council coming from the General Authorities that did not have some weight to it. We all are now starting to see the reason why the council for providential living must be adhered too. The council to "live within our means" and have some back up resources in case something were to happen. People who don't listen to such council will wake up one day and find themselves in a very bad situation and may not be able to receive the help they need.

Living a simple life (from this years General Conference) is based on four basic essential needs - food, clothing, shelter and fuel. Is this wise council? To me, yes. Why is that? because I have been homeless several times. Not having a place to rest your head, not having a place to come home to is not a good place to be. Being able to provide for oneself and those that are under your care is not just a responsibility, but an obligation.

So, yes, granted there have been statements made in the early days of the church that were mere opinions, but there were also things made in those days that may not apply to us today because they were applicable for that generation and that time.

So, yes, I concur that we have a responsibility to not only follow the council of the Apostles and leaders of the Church, but to do it prayerfully and observantly.

And, sometimes, what one Apostle may say and council may not affect all of the members at large, but some of the members at large. What the Stake president might teach may not affect all families within that stake, just some of those families within that Stake.

So, yes, we ought to be mindful of what they teach and what they inform us about. Not that we give up our own obligations and responsibilities as individuals, but to recognize and understand that part of "sustaining" these brethren is to also listen to what they have to say.

[a-train]

What we cannot neglect to remember is why we follow a given prophet in the first place: because God told us to.

We don't follow the prophet simply because we have an arbitrary desire to follow someone. We follow the prophet because the LORD by His Spirit has told us directly that this man is a prophet and his counsel is the LORD's.

-a-train

[KristofferUmfrey]

I am appreciative of those who have brought up conflicting statements of your leaders saying it is folly to blindly follow a man, shows you have at least pondered the issue.

Now, there are some who say, "We should follow them obediently, receiving a witness of the Spirit". Perhaps you should read the full extant of HCK quote, where he says it is wrong to wait for a revelation or by the Spirit you should do as your told no matter what it is. The JOD is easy enough to find online.

These conflicting teachings (amoung others) are reasons why I could no longer in good faith be a member of the LDS Church. You never know what is going to be taught next.

[bytor2112]

I am appreciative of those who have brought up conflicting statements of your leaders saying it is folly to blindly follow a man, shows you have at least pondered the issue.

Now, there are some who say, "We should follow them obediently, receiving a witness of the Spirit". Perhaps you should read the full extant of HCK quote, where he says it is wrong to wait for a revelation or by the Spirit you should do as your told no matter what it is. The JOD is easy enough to find online.

These conflicting teachings (amoung others) are reasons why I could no longer in good faith be a member of the LDS Church. You never know what is going to be taught next.

Just for the record....the JOD is not doctrine.......and quotes from past leaders, Apostles or Prophets aren't always relevent to our day and time. Believing every past quote or obscure teaching is not a requirement of salvation. The only requirements are faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, Baptism, reciept of the Holy Ghost, Temple marriage and strive to live a Christ like life as best as we are able in this fallen sphere. Gain a testimony of these and the other things begin to make more sense....the Lord reveals sacred truths to each of us...... a little at a time, as we are ready.

[Traveler]

I am appreciative of those who have brought up conflicting statements of your leaders saying it is folly to blindly follow a man, shows you have at least pondered the issue.

Now, there are some who say, "We should follow them obediently, receiving a witness of the Spirit". Perhaps you should read the full extant of HCK quote, where he says it is wrong to wait for a revelation or by the Spirit you should do as your told no matter what it is. The JOD is easy enough to find online.

These conflicting teachings (amoung others) are reasons why I could no longer in good faith be a member of the LDS Church. You never know what is going to be taught next.

It does not appear to me that you have pondered anything but what you have been spoon fed by someone (most likely an organization specializing in religious bigotry) that really does not like the LDS people. If this is your personal study and you have read the entire Journal of Discourses and all the “Ward Teaching” messages for the last 100 years that would be one thing – but it is my impression that you have not. I apologize in advance if I have underestimated you personal study into LDS material.

I BELIEVE THE ONLY REASON THAT YOU THINK THERE IS CONTRADICTION IS BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING SOMEONE IS TELLING YOU!!!

This is a contradiction of your basic criticism – telling me you are at greater fault then those you would criticize. If you paid any attention to the presidential campaigns you would be aware that whenever a candidate gave a speech that the opposition was able to find “contradictions” within a few hours. That you must go back to over 50 over years to ward teaching material that is out of publication and somewhat unavailable to most of the public to find your contradictions tells me that you have come to this forum unprepared and with great bias.

Let us be honest. How many volumes of the Journal of Discourses have you read? And how many Ward Teaching messages have you read and where did you get them?

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

I follow the prophets WITH AND BY the help of the Holy Spirit. You see, the Holy Ghost is the key to this whole debate! The Holy Ghost will tell us all things we should do. It will tell us how things really are and how they really will be.

Following the prophet blindly isn't what this church is about in any degree. Following the prophets in faith IS!

Joseph Smith warned the people at Haun's Mill to leave. He didn't say why. They people hesitated to follow the counsel. Maybe it was because the counsel didn't come from a pulpit or wasn't packaged in the form of scripture. And you all know the sad outcome.

Following the wisdom of the prophets is essential. Even with regards to simple things. When I taught at the MTC, I had a minor conflict with one sister who refused to take our her numerous piercings. The rules for dress and grooming were clear. The vision for such rules directly from our highest leaders. And she signed up to serve! Yet, she could not follow the simplest of counsel without resentment.

I think learning to follow our leaders in faith even when we don't see everything that they do IS essential to our growth spiritually. There is safety in the counsel of our prophets. And I have enough faith in them to know that their counsel is something that I can and do trust. And I have the Holy Spirit that testifies to me the truth of that even as I write this.

[Moksha]

So if the prophet tells you that he is reinstituting polygamy and that God has called him to wed your wife and you should be best man at the wedding. You'd happily get divorced and turn up and be best man at the wedding? (see Orson Pratt/Sarah Pratt history, I am not picking sides just saying that might have been a possibility.)

Isn't it wonderful that the Brethren tend to be well seasoned and very mature men, for whom a waning of the flesh means a growth of the spirit.

[Islander]

I suggest we should; at least those who believe in the Restoration, the power of the Priesthood and modern revelation, remember that indeed The Prophet has insight and guidance from the Lord. When we utilize our agency, thought process, ideas and opinions we do so freely but must also be aware that since we ONLY have access to a very small portion of the truth, we should seek to know where GOD's mind is on that particular issue. Sometime "popular wisdom" is no wisdom at all.

Isaiah 8 is instructive. ALL the people were looking for alliances and confederacies in order to withstand the impending invasion of the Assyrians. The Lord says clearly that no matter what they do of and for themselves, strategically, militarily or otherwise they will be broken in pieces and destroyed. There were at the time all sorts of theories about what the nation should do. But "seek ONLY God and thou will be safe" saith the Lord thru His prophet. Hear the prophet and we will be on the right side, heed to his counsel and and we will understand truth and the mind of God.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Islander

[Hemidakota]

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)"

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

I have the complete JOD at my disposal so I checked to make sure the Kimball quote is in context.

If not, then ask the Savior whether or not it is. I would expect the same answer.

[Shera]

Well, we have been promised by God that the prophet will never lead us astray. So I do follow the council that is given. However I don't think that means that we can't ask God if it's right and pray to Him to know that the council came from him. For example, I had many friends and family members that had mulitple earrings when Pres. Hinckley came out and said that women should just wear one. Some of them did exactly as they were told and removed them, every one of them has told me that their lives were blessed for obeying, even though they didn't understand or thought that it was silly. Others however did not understand at all and had a hard time with it, one was a seminary teacher and she did not remove her extra pairs of earrings. When her seminary students asked her why she wasn't following the council of the prophet she said that she hadn't recieved her witness yet and that she was praying to understand. A few weeks later she removed the earrings and said that she had recieved her witness. I don't know that I would have done the same thing, but I do know that we are so blessed to recieve personal revelation and that if there is some direction that we are struggling with, we can go to our Father in Heaven and ask him to help us understand. I know that I won't be lead astray if I follow the council of God's prophet on earth.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Shera

[Justice]

Here is one of the great mysteries, and it causes people to wonder and second-guess. But, it's an awesome opportunity for us.

When a called and ordained servant of the Lord speaks we should obey. When we do it is the greatest win-win situation known to man. If he is right then we are blessed for our obedience. If he is wrong then it is his fault for speaking incorrectly for the Lord. Either way we are blessed for our obedience.

[OtterPop]

Here is one of the great mysteries, and it causes people to wonder and second-guess. But, it's an awesome opportunity for us.

When a called and ordained servant of the Lord speaks we should obey. When we do it is the greatest win-win situation known to man. If he is right then we are blessed for our obedience. If he is wrong then it is his fault for speaking incorrectly for the Lord. Either way we are blessed for our obedience.

I respectfully suggest that it is not always a win-win situation. If you counsel with your bishop about your marriage, and he recommends that you seek divorce but is incorrect in his advice -- but you obey because he is your called and ordained bishop . . . I think being "blessed" for obedience is cold comfort for having followed uninspired advice -- especially if you had your own misgivings.

Again, I'll say that considering a leader's input is one thing. Obeying for the sake of obeying is another.

[Justice]

I'm not sure you caught the full intent of my words.

If your bishop offers you counsel on what the Lord would have you do, and you do it, you will be blessed for your obedience.

Everything else beyond that is just gray matter we add. You say it is "cold comfort" for following uninspired advice, but I say that is a narrow look on things and what the Lord may really want for you. The Lord may have greater things in mind for you in the near future, distant future, or hereafter.

We often feel "advice" from the bishop is "uninspried" until we see the blessings. But, the fact is, we may not see the blessings for some obedience until after we pass from this life.

In my opinion, to call a bishop's advice uninspired is to have a lack of faith in the Lord's ability to bring about and sustain the words of His called and ordained leaders.

I'm sorry for being blunt, but I felt an honest explanation was due.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I am appreciative of those who have brought up conflicting statements of your leaders saying it is folly to blindly follow a man, shows you have at least pondered the issue.

Now, there are some who say, "We should follow them obediently, receiving a witness of the Spirit". Perhaps you should read the full extant of HCK quote, where he says it is wrong to wait for a revelation or by the Spirit you should do as your told no matter what it is. The JOD is easy enough to find online.

These conflicting teachings (amoung others) are reasons why I could no longer in good faith be a member of the LDS Church. You never know what is going to be taught next.

Here is a question for you? Have not many people within the "Christian Community" make worse and dangerous outlandish statements, teaching doctrines that are not supportive of the bible?

There are far more problems with some of the Christian Ministers who have taught destructive doctrines down through time and even today.

Look at the Health and Wealth Prosperity Gospel Preachers like Benny Hinn who stated that Christ would come and manifest himself at one of his "Healing Crusades".

Look at the greed of Trinity Broadcast network and the dangerous doctrines they teach. In fact, listen to some of those preachers who tell you to "Say to your Wallet, Wallet, be filled with money" and if it does not happen, then you lack your belief in God and do not believe he can honestly provide for you.

There are far more doctrines of Christiandom that are far more dangerously taught than what you are saying is from someone who has already passed on.

We have to look at the context of the society then than try to understand what was said 30 years ago and attempt to interpret in our understanding and society.

Guess what, how long ago was it when the admonishment of having a 2 year supply of food come out? I wonder how many members questioned the reason why... But now...let me see, Hurricane Katrina, Economic Crisis we are in, major natural disasters that are happening quite frequently. Yet, such an admonishment was stated about 20-50 years ago right?

So, I honestly think you are basing your decision on something that was said with a modern day society interpretation.

[KristofferUmfrey]

It does not appear to me that you have pondered anything but what you have been spoon fed by someone (most likely an organization specializing in religious bigotry) that really does not like the LDS people. If this is your personal study and you have read the entire Journal of Discourses and all the “Ward Teaching” messages for the last 100 years that would be one thing – but it is my impression that you have not. I apologize in advance if I have underestimated you personal study into LDS material.

I BELIEVE THE ONLY REASON THAT YOU THINK THERE IS CONTRADICTION IS BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING SOMEONE IS TELLING YOU!!!

This is a contradiction of your basic criticism – telling me you are at greater fault then those you would criticize. If you paid any attention to the presidential campaigns you would be aware that whenever a candidate gave a speech that the opposition was able to find “contradictions” within a few hours. That you must go back to over 50 over years to ward teaching material that is out of publication and somewhat unavailable to most of the public to find your contradictions tells me that you have come to this forum unprepared and with great bias.

Let us be honest. How many volumes of the Journal of Discourses have you read? And how many Ward Teaching messages have you read and where did you get them?

The Traveler

You are right... You DON'T know me very well and have no idea what I have read or how much I have studied. I have never in my life, except for an accidental passing glance, read anything that is anti-Restoration, ALL my studying comes from sources friendly to the Book of Mormon. All my study is independent, no human tells me what to believe, and anything I am told I take with a grain of salt, also I defend your church when somebody says something stupid I know isn't true when I COULD just let them go on believing what they like.

Just because somebody doesn't agree with all of your church's teachings doesn't mean they are not studied in the subject or brainwashed by Southern Baptist ministers.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Here is a question for you? Have not many people within the "Christian Community" make worse and dangerous outlandish statements, teaching doctrines that are not supportive of the bible?

There are far more problems with some of the Christian Ministers who have taught destructive doctrines down through time and even today.

Look at the Health and Wealth Prosperity Gospel Preachers like Benny Hinn who stated that Christ would come and manifest himself at one of his "Healing Crusades".

Look at the greed of Trinity Broadcast network and the dangerous doctrines they teach. In fact, listen to some of those preachers who tell you to "Say to your Wallet, Wallet, be filled with money" and if it does not happen, then you lack your belief in God and do not believe he can honestly provide for you.

There are far more doctrines of Christiandom that are far more dangerously taught than what you are saying is from someone who has already passed on.

We have to look at the context of the society then than try to understand what was said 30 years ago and attempt to interpret in our understanding and society.

Guess what, how long ago was it when the admonishment of having a 2 year supply of food come out? I wonder how many members questioned the reason why... But now...let me see, Hurricane Katrina, Economic Crisis we are in, major natural disasters that are happening quite frequently. Yet, such an admonishment was stated about 20-50 years ago right?

So, I honestly think you are basing your decision on something that was said with a modern day society interpretation.

Exactly! So why should I believe your leaders outlandish statements anymore then I should believe the TBN crowd?

Do you think your church is the only one that has been teaching preparation for many years?

Do you think your church is the only one that has been teaching against porn and the breakdown of the family for many years?

LDS seem to think that there church leaders are the only people that recognized these and other issues early on, I can assure you they weren't alone in lifting a warning voice.

[AnthonyB]

I will presume the LDS posters are not advocating some form of "entire santification" doctrine, by which some marginal groups believe that certain people reach a level of santification in this life so that they not subject to the temptations of sin, transgressions etc. You do believe that prophets, apostles and bishops remain capable of sinning and disobeying God like the rest of us. That they can fall away and even give wrongful commands at times.

It is rather your saying that even if they give a wrong command then God will honour you obedience to that command, despite its being wrong.

However God declares he is the author of no sin, so how could he instruct one of his servant to instruct someone to sin. Therefore any command which causes you to violate your own conscience and according to Rom 14 something that violates a persons consience is a sin for that person, IMHO shouldn't be followed.

That doesn't mean defiance but humble willingness to standard by your own conscience and be willing to cheerfully receive the rightful response of the person in spiritual authority over you, even if that be punishment for your stand.

I quite like John Ralston Sual on this...

"Immorality is doing wrong of our own volition. Amorality is doing it because a structure or an organization expects us to do it. Amorality is worse than immorality because it involves denying our responsbility and therefore our existence as anything more than an animal"

[Hemidakota]

Only those who are immortal have reached 'total santification' in this life. We do know by record, two cities have done it and were removed to another concealed location. Then we have additional witnesses of those who never touched death and now living an immortal life.

However, there are those who have received the Second Comforter and in a sense, reach a level of santification but still retain 'agency' to choose for themselve to commit sin and capable in doing so. Problem with this type, they will have to pay for their own sins if not repented within mortality. Yet, these are they who will go to know end in repenting until their last breath.

The key to santification is given here but there are still others that must be applicable in life:

Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which santification cometh because of their yielding their hearts to God. (Helaman 3:35.)

[KristofferUmfrey]

Only those who are immortal have reached 'total santification' in this life. We do know by record, two cities have done it and were removed to another concealed location. Then we have additional witnesses of those who never touched death and now living an immortal life.

However, there are those who have received the Second Comforter and in a sense, reach a level of santification but still retain 'agency' to choose for themselve to commit sin and capable in doing so. Problem with this type, they will have to pay for their own sins if not repented within mortality. Yet, these are they who will go to know end in repenting until their last breath.

The key to santification is given here but there are still others that must be applicable in life:

Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which santification cometh because of their yielding their hearts to God. (Helaman 3:35.)

Two cities? What's the other one besides Enoch? (which could be a whole other discussion, but I'll defer)

[OtterPop]

I'm not sure you caught the full intent of my words.

If your bishop offers you counsel on what the Lord would have you do, and you do it, you will be blessed for your obedience.

Everything else beyond that is just gray matter we add. You say it is "cold comfort" for following uninspired advice, but I say that is a narrow look on things and what the Lord may really want for you. The Lord may have greater things in mind for you in the near future, distant future, or hereafter.

We often feel "advice" from the bishop is "uninspried" until we see the blessings. But, the fact is, we may not see the blessings for some obedience until after we pass from this life.

In my opinion, to call a bishop's advice uninspired is to have a lack of faith in the Lord's ability to bring about and sustain the words of His called and ordained leaders.

I'm sorry for being blunt, but I felt an honest explanation was due.

I don't mind your being blunt at all, and I hope you don't mind bluntness in return.

Some bishops are not honorable men, even though they've been set apart. Do you really believe that every bishop is inspired in all the counsel he gives? Do you really believe that all bishops are righteous and worthy? These are men, who are limited by their own weaknesses.

Would you really automatically substitute a bishop's counsel for you own insight and inspiration in the name of obedience? It's attitudes like this that lead some people to conclude that Mormonism is a cult.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Exactly! So why should I believe your leaders outlandish statements anymore then I should believe the TBN crowd?

Do you think your church is the only one that has been teaching preparation for many years?

Do you think your church is the only one that has been teaching against porn and the breakdown of the family for many years?

LDS seem to think that there church leaders are the only people that recognized these and other issues early on, I can assure you they weren't alone in lifting a warning voice.

I never said that they were the only ones that made any such points. That is a false conjecture to make.

Trust me, I understand where you are coming from. The only difference is this - and it is what someone told me. What does it matter what someone said or is claimed that they have said a hundred years ago? What significance does that have to do with you today? Are you honestly going to base your faith on what someone said a hundred years ago? If so, then, honestly and truthfully, it is the wrong thing to do. Why is that? Because, guess what the Roman Catholic Church considered those who believed that the Sun was the center of the Universe as they new and understood it were wrong, heretics and suffered grave condemnation. All because they believed something that the Church had taught. That teaching was that the Earth was the center of the then known universe and not the sun.

Yet, now we know that the Sun is not the Center of the Universe, but the Sun is at the head of our solar system. In fact, what is at the center of our galaxy is a large dormant Black hole (courtesy of the History Channel's "Universe" episode that was a repeat last night).

So, if you were to base your faith on such things and say that because of those statements made by people of that time then therefore 200 years later, one should stop believing in that faith and call it false.

Guess what, That is what the Jews were doing when Christ was born into mortality and they didn't believe even the miracles he did.

And Christ himself said that when you follow a prophet, you will receive a prophets reward.

So, Christ himself instructed us to Follow those whom God the Father has called to serve him.

And, finally, who are you to tell God that he is wrong for choosing such people?

Is the Abrahamic covenant invalid because Abraham was intimate with Hagar?

Is King David not in favor of God's love and mercy because of his adultry and murder of Bethsheba and her husband?

Should we discredit the Apostle Paul's epistles because he once persecuted the Church?

Should we not consider Peter a Disciple and apostle of Christ because Peter denied Christ three times?

According to your reason and logic, because a man said 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 years ago something that does not apply to us today we should discredit them and the Church at large - then we are to discredit any person who was called of God and not listen to what they taught. Guess what, that means even the Bible doesn't have any authority in one's life with such reasoning.

[Elphaba]

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. >snip<if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

I have the complete JOD at my disposal so I checked to make sure the Kimball quote is in context

So what?

This stuff gets so old.

Do you really think posting this is going to wake everyone up to the flaws in the Church?

Do you really think it's not something we, including this ex-Mormon, haven't heard over and over?

Do you really think we don't know the "thinking has been done" comment is a weak and shallow "anti" strategy to condemn the Church?

If you want to confront latter-day Saints, there are other and better arguments, though you still will not change anyone's heart.

Give it a rest already.

Elphaba

[Nappaljarri]

My stand point:

Prophet: Obedience every time

Bishop and Local leaders: I will pray about it and take my own life into consideration. The main point being why would I need the bishop's advice anyway. The church through the GA's give the most specific guidence necessary for normal members to live. I am not going to bring myself into some situation of terrible sin, so I will not need to go to him because of that. If I have life experiences (that are not gospel orientated), then I will consult myself first and husband first, and then bring it to God in prayer, he may alter the plan, or may say go for it, or may leave us to our own devices to allow us to step into the darkness with faith (this has happened many times in our life).

I must agree, there are many bishops who are not honorable men (lots in my own life). Thank goodness I didn not need their help, else I would have prayed alot before going to see them, and would have prayed alot after seeing them.

On a side note... I will never take the Sunday School teacher's word for gospel, neither the RS teacher's word for gospel, nor the crazy lady sitting down the back of the room. Those lessons are usually entertainment for me.

But I will re-iterate.... when the prophet speaks, I obey. Simple as that.

[Traveler]

You are right... You DON'T know me very well and have no idea what I have read or how much I have studied. I have never in my life, except for an accidental passing glance, read anything that is anti-Restoration, ALL my studying comes from sources friendly to the Book of Mormon. All my study is independent, no human tells me what to believe, and anything I am told I take with a grain of salt, also I defend your church when somebody says something stupid I know isn't true when I COULD just let them go on believing what they like.

Just because somebody doesn't agree with all of your church's teachings doesn't mean they are not studied in the subject or brainwashed by Southern Baptist ministers.

Let us try some honesty again. Your avoidance of direct questions leaves me to wonder what you are trying to hide. So I will ask my questions again.

Question 1: How many volumes of the Journal of Discourses have you read (where exactly did you get your quote?) I doubt it was from reading all 26 volumes of Journal of Discourses.

Question 2: Where did you obtain “Ward Teaching” material that is currently out of publication? Again I doubt you got it from any LDS publication, maybe some web site?

Since “Ward Teaching” material is out of publication I would like to know how you checked out the validity of that quote. I would like to check out “your sources” - the real ones.

The Traveler