Intelligence - Is gender selection a choice?

[Hemidakota]

"oh my gosh. i would never want to be a male. i had five brothers and that is way too much testosterone in one household. no wonder when there is polygamy its one male and more females. "

I think this is a cultural/dominance thing, not that I think poly-anything relationships are healthy. I believe that there are those who would prefer a polyandrous (1 female) relationship as opposed to a polygynous (1 male) in which the idea of "too much testosterone" would not be an issue to them.

Something I keep telling my wife, I am glad I am not a FEMALE.

[interalia]

I think this is a cultural/dominance thing, not that I think poly-anything relationships are healthy. I believe that there are those who would prefer a polyandrous (1 female) relationship as opposed to a polygynous (1 male) in which the idea of "too much testosterone" would not be an issue to them.

true although i was really kidding around. there dont seem to have been many polygynous societies common in history although there are a few.

i hadnt read your introduction post before, interalia. since you were so brave and open i am going to tell a few things that have influenced my thoughts on this subject.

my third child was born with birth defects. they were in the abdominal area. one of the obvious problems was that the sex was not clear at all. in fact we didnt know for sure what he was till an autopsy was performed. when they came around to ask information for the birth certificate we didnt even know what sex he was.

it got me to thinking a lot on the subject. since then i have become friends with a person online who is a hermaphrodite and a member of the church. i didnt know this for quite some time so its not why we met.

it is clear that some odd things happen when a baby is created sometimes. there are genetic anomolies all over the place. most cause death before birth. many cause mental defects. others cause physical birth defects.

one is where there are three chromosomes for sex not two. sometimes known as 'super female or super male'. such as xxy xxx xyy. usually it is only by accident that a person is identified with these. they go for a long time never knowing and no doubt most never know. how it effects their gender is not clear if at all.

the point being that things get messed up here sometimes. its not always as clear as you would think.

another point to consider is that in the celestial kingdom there are the couples. and there are the ministering angels. who the ministering angels are is not all that clear that i know of. maybe there is some connection to this subject.

Seriously this is something I have very much wondered about. I have studied these conditions for years through my education and have come to no consensus concerning my faith and how these abnormally sexed individuals would be defined spiritually, and there seems to be no related discussion from church officials. I guess things like this will be worked out in the Millineum.

This has particular significance to me because it is possible that birth defects made me the way I am. I'm not so in need of validation as to believe that a birth defect is 100% the reason - in fact in my own opinion I see it much like schizophrenia, a biological base with an environmental trigger. Still it is something I've always wondered about.

BTW, I have known intersexed (hermaphroditic) people and people with Klinefelter's syndrome (XXY). For them (they were non-members) it wasn't too difficult for them to define themselves (they chose), but if it were me, I'd be going nuts wondering where I fit in the church's bi-gender system.

Thank you very much for your experience!

[RickJ]

Aren't there a couple of issues at hand here?

1. the bodies gender.

In some cases this can become "confused" due to birth defects etc and results in some of he issues spoken about. All humans start development as a female fetus and at a certain stage of inter-uterine development hormones fire that cause the development of male genitalia. Sometimes these hormones miss-fire and un-intended differences result.

2. the brains gender.

Again at a certain point during development other hormones fire that result in the development of certain areas of the brain. Should these hormones mis-fire the the result can be a female "wired" brain in a male body or vice-versa.

In relation to the whether we choose the gender we want prior to coming to earth I believe that I was male in the pre-existence and was male when I came to earth.

[Hemidakota]

Good point...something that I have not considered Rick, is brain gender. I do know, we share with other lesser intelligence in controlling the body through various areas of the brain. This is what I believe is the term "I AM" comes into play.

[interalia]

Aren't there a couple of issues at hand here?

1. the bodies gender.

In some cases this can become "confused" due to birth defects etc and results in some of he issues spoken about. All humans start development as a female fetus and at a certain stage of inter-uterine development hormones fire that cause the development of male genitalia. Sometimes these hormones miss-fire and un-intended differences result.

2. the brains gender.

Again at a certain point during development other hormones fire that result in the development of certain areas of the brain. Should these hormones mis-fire the the result can be a female "wired" brain in a male body or vice-versa.

In relation to the whether we choose the gender we want prior to coming to earth I believe that I was male in the pre-existence and was male when I came to earth.

With regard to brain gender - certainly there is a mechanism (yet undiscovered) that gives us our sense of identity in the brain, however our sense of identity as male or female might not necessarily be present - as there is a chance that sense is completely based on nurture. I mean, it is appealing to someone like me to belief there is a 100% biological base for an inconsistent gender identity, however I have a hard time believing it currently based on the actual research done. My own experience is not enough to convince me I was "born this way" as validating as that sounds.

Back on topic, I don't believe anything in Heavenly Father's plan is arbitrary, however I do not necessarily understand things as they are or why the gender roles are defined as they are with so true little difference between the sexes - but that is for another topic. Gender, explained to be spiritual, must have a point as to why we are what we are. If we chose, it must have been for a reason that Heavenly Father approved; if it was chosen for us, we can only assume God had a plan for that too. If whatever gender we are is permanent (eternal and unchangeable), I do not know - it seems it would be based on other revelations.

I still wonder if an intersexed person could have their spiritual gender identified by something like a Patriarchal blessing since that seems to be part of it. Who knows?

[cby016]

In the family proclamation found here it states

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

To me that sounds like gender is an eternal characteristic that was always with us and will always be with us and that we didn't choose it.

[Wingnut]

In the family proclamation found here it states

To me that sounds like gender is an eternal characteristic that was always with us and will always be with us and that we didn't choose it.

It sounds like gender is an eternal characteristic that was always with us and will always be with us, but it doesn't sound to me like it excludes the possibility that we may have chosen our gender.

[cby016]

I guess my point was if it is an eternal characteristic, why would we have to choose it? Wouldn't it have already been a part of us?

[annewandering]

a patriarchal blessing sounds like an idea. with prayer and fasting before hand. it might answer those questions but it might not.

[aliasgeorge]

From my fourteen year old daughter who I share daily e-mail communications on various topics. Yesterday, as I answered an thread, based on my own experience - Sanctification, I shared that with my daughter. What was unexpected was the following...

What would be your response?

Getting back to the original question: One must understand what the term "intelligences" means in scripture in order to make sense of what is going on here. "The Father and The Son" A doctrinal exposition signed by the first presidency and quorum of the 12 define "intelligences" as personal spirit children of the Father. In other words, "intelligences"=Spirit child. This isn't my opinion. Look up the source. Thus "intelligences" were already either male or female--they were spirit children.

Confusion comes in when the term "intelligence" comes up--that which always existed and is the matter by which our spirits were created. Joseph Smith taught that “the elements are eternal.” (D&C 93:33) Phrased another way, “intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither can be.” (D&C 93:29) All things were created from eternal matter, both physical and spiritual creations alike (see D&C 131:7-8, JD 13:248). The material from which all things were created was in the beginning with God. It has always been, and cannot be created or destroyed. If it were not so, we could not exist forever as resurrected beings with the “spirit and element, inseparably connected,” able to receive a “fulness of joy;” (D&C 93:33-34) for that which has a beginning will in turn have an end (see TPJS 354).

Now the question--is "intelligence" the same thing as "intelligences"? Absolutely not. And if anyone can find more reliable sources than what I have produced, please make them known.

To finish this discussion, it is important to note that all of the creative accounts which we have been given are limited to a description of the physical creation alone. We have no revealed account of the spirit creation (see Mormon Doctrine “Creation” 170, Doctrines of Salvation 75-76). What we do know is that God “created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.” (Moses 3:5, 7) We are also told that “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal: and that which is temporal, is in the likeness of that which is spiritual: the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature, which God has created.” (D&C 77:2) From these scriptures, we know that all life was created in spirit before it was created in physical form here on earth, and that the spirit form looked like the physical form it is given here. We also learn that if we have a clear understanding of the truth concerning the physical creation, we can come to understand of the spirit creation as well—for “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal.” Knowing this, we should focus on understanding the physical creation as revealed to man through the prophets of God.

As for the physical creation, from what is man created? The dust of the earth. All of our bodies are created from the dust of the earth--eternal temporal elements which never had a beginning, nor will they have an end. But, there was a beginning to our physical bodies. For each of us it started in the womb of our respective earthly mothers. Though the element is eternal, never created nor destroyed, there is a defined moment when that element organized into a physical body.

So, why should we think the spiritual creation is any different? Why should we assume that "that which is spiritual" is not "in the likeness of that which is temporal"? Does it make rational sense to speculate any other way using the unified priesthood body statements and cannonized scripture as our guide? Did our physical body have some type of pre-organized state which acted as a precursor form which implanted itself into the womb? NO! All matter is completely disorganized in the digestive tract of the mother, and then organized in the womb. So, why would we hold to some notion that we existed in some type of pre-spirit-child organism that somehow had agency (as supposed in the question)? Its preposterous and defies scripture and the words of the prophets.

While scripture is silent as to the spirital creation, it has given us the key to understand it--the physical creation.

Edited December 6, 2008 by aliasgeorge

[interalia]

Getting back to the original question: One must understand what the term "intelligences" means in scripture in order to make sense of what is going on here. "The Father and The Son" A doctrinal exposition signed by the first presidency and quorum of the 12 define "intelligences" as personal spirit children of the Father. In other words, "intelligences"=Spirit child. This isn't my opinion. Look up the source. Thus "intelligences" were already either male or female--they were spirit children.

Confusion comes in when the term "intelligence" comes up--that which always existed and is the matter by which our spirits were created. Joseph Smith taught that “the elements are eternal.” (D&C 93:33) Phrased another way, “intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither can be.” (D&C 93:29) All things were created from eternal matter, both physical and spiritual creations alike (see D&C 131:7-8, JD 13:248). The material from which all things were created was in the beginning with God. It has always been, and cannot be created or destroyed. If it were not so, we could not exist forever as resurrected beings with the “spirit and element, inseparably connected,” able to receive a “fulness of joy;” (D&C 93:33-34) for that which has a beginning will in turn have an end (see TPJS 354).

Now the question--is "intelligence" the same thing as "intelligences"? Absolutely not. And if anyone can find more reliable sources than what I have produced, please make them known.

To finish this discussion, it is important to note that all of the creative accounts which we have been given are limited to a description of the physical creation alone. We have no revealed account of the spirit creation (see Mormon Doctrine “Creation” 170, Doctrines of Salvation 75-76). What we do know is that God “created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.” (Moses 3:5, 7) We are also told that “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal: and that which is temporal, is in the likeness of that which is spiritual: the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature, which God has created.” (D&C 77:2) From these scriptures, we know that all life was created in spirit before it was created in physical form here on earth, and that the spirit form looked like the physical form it is given here. We also learn that if we have a clear understanding of the truth concerning the physical creation, we can come to understand of the spirit creation as well—for “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal.” Knowing this, we should focus on understanding the physical creation as revealed to man through the prophets of God.

As for the physical creation, from what is man created? The dust of the earth. All of our bodies are created from the dust of the earth--eternal temporal elements which never had a beginning, nor will they have an end. But, there was a beginning to our physical bodies. For each of us it started in the womb of our respective earthly mothers. Though the element is eternal, never created nor destroyed, there is a defined moment when that element organized into a physical body.

So, why should we think the spiritual creation is any different? Why should we assume that "that which is spiritual" is not "in the likeness of that which is temporal"? Does it make rational sense to speculate any other way using the unified priesthood body statements and cannonized scripture as our guide? Did our physical body have some type of pre-organized state which acted as a precursor form which implanted itself into the womb? NO! All matter is completely disorganized in the digestive tract of the mother, and then organized in the womb. So, why would we hold to some notion that we existed in some type of pre-spirit-child organism that somehow had agency (as supposed in the question)? Its preposterous and defies scripture and the words of the prophets.

While scripture is silent as to the spirital creation, it has given us the key to understand it--the physical creation.

Thank you aliasgeorge for your very thoughtful post - it has caused me to really think. I don't agree with it 100% (not because I think it is wrong, but because I don't have enough information to believe it is 100% right).

Your last statement makes me think - if spiritual creation is indeed mirrored after physical creation, we know that gender is determined at the moment of conception by the chromosomal passing of either an X or a Y from the male (assuming you don't get abnormal chromosome passings). If this indeed a mirror, then that means as spiritual children we were either male or female from the time we were spiritually begotten. But that is just it, our intelligences had no beginning and by definition are not spirit children of God until God adopted us. The intelligences exist and have always existed. God gathered the intelligences to perfect them - He did not make them. He spiritually begot us is my understanding (attached a spirit to our intelligence), but intelligence is something earlier in development than even spirit. So I cannot say with any certainty that our intelligence itself had a gender - however I can completely believe that when our Heavenly parents spiritually begot us, just as is mirrored in the physical world, that our gender was at least determined by that point either by them or by us.

We believe that intelligences have certain specific characteristics - eternalness (they always have and will exist), the predetermined ability to grow (this is true of even animal intelligences) and agency (obviously). I don't remember gender ever being mentioned as another basic characteristic of an intelligence, though I'm not opposed to the idea. As mentioned by someone earlier, gender has been described as an eternal characteristic, but not everything appears to have a gender - some creatures seem definitively genderless and we are pretty sure that matter, either organized or unorganized is genderless. So while it might be eternal of a characteristic, it doesn't mean it is universal applied. It just means to me that the concept of gender has always existed and will always exist. Just as we believe that agency is eternal, it doesn't mean it is universally applicable. Does matter have agency for instance?

I am more than willing to concede on my points believing my ideas to be conjecture at best - in my mind this whole subject is still in the category of 'unrevealed' so I don't know if we can be so definitive in our answers, but it is still an interesting thought experiment.

[aliasgeorge]

Thank you aliasgeorge for your very thoughtful post - it has caused me to really think. I don't agree with it 100% (not because I think it is wrong, but because I don't have enough information to believe it is 100% right).

Your last statement makes me think - if spiritual creation is indeed mirrored after physical creation, we know that gender is determined at the moment of conception by the chromosomal passing of either an X or a Y from the male (assuming you don't get abnormal chromosome passings). If this indeed a mirror, then that means as spiritual children we were either male or female from the time we were spiritually begotten. But that is just it, our intelligences had no beginning and by definition are not spirit children of God until God adopted us. The intelligences exist and have always existed. God gathered the intelligences to perfect them - He did not make them. He spiritually begot us is my understanding (attached a spirit to our intelligence), but intelligence is something earlier in development than even spirit. So I cannot say with any certainty that our intelligence itself had a gender - however I can completely believe that when our Heavenly parents spiritually begot us, just as is mirrored in the physical world, that our gender was at least determined by that point either by them or by us.

We believe that intelligences have certain specific characteristics - eternalness (they always have and will exist), the predetermined ability to grow (this is true of even animal intelligences) and agency (obviously). I don't remember gender ever being mentioned as another basic characteristic of an intelligence, though I'm not opposed to the idea. As mentioned by someone earlier, gender has been described as an eternal characteristic, but not everything appears to have a gender - some creatures seem definitively genderless and we are pretty sure that matter, either organized or unorganized is genderless. So while it might be eternal of a characteristic, it doesn't mean it is universal applied. It just means to me that the concept of gender has always existed and will always exist. Just as we believe that agency is eternal, it doesn't mean it is universally applicable. Does matter have agency for instance?

I am more than willing to concede on my points believing my ideas to be conjecture at best - in my mind this whole subject is still in the category of 'unrevealed' so I don't know if we can be so definitive in our answers, but it is still an interesting thought experiment.

Interalia, thanks for the comment. As to you and your personal beliefs, you can believe whatever you want to believe. The question I have for you is: upon what are you basing your beliefs? You haven't sited any scriptural reference, nor signed priesthood document. Do you have any upon which you are basing your opinion? This is the huge problem I see in the church. Everybody loves to share their opinion, but the point of the church and the holy Ghost is that we come to know the truth, not philosiphize over what may or may not be. This is true of any and all principles. Many people like to think, but few are willing to pay the price of study, fasting, and prayer to really understand the principles.

As for you comment. "Intelligences" did not exist as organized entities until they were born as spirit children of our Heavenly father. Look up and read "The father and the son, doctrinal exposition by the first presidency and the 12." So, why do you and many others believe that intelligences existed as an organized entity before they were born as spirit children? Do you have a reference? Of course some people have taught that, but is it in the scriptures? And what have the unified priesthood bodies said about it?

If you're referencing "intelligence"--the matter from which spirit children are made, it had no beginning, nor an end. You physical body is made from "dust" which is matter which had no beginning nor an end. There was no "you" or "pre-you" before you were born as a spirit child. No credible revelatory outlet has ever taught it. Many former and current BYU professors will teach it, but it is contrary to what the unified priesthood body has taught on the matter (see D&C 107:27,29).

[interalia]

Interalia, thanks for the comment. As to you and your personal beliefs, you can believe whatever you want to believe. The question I have for you is: upon what are you basing your beliefs? You haven't sited any scriptural reference, nor signed priesthood document. Do you have any upon which you are basing your opinion? This is the huge problem I see in the church. Everybody loves to share their opinion, but the point of the church and the holy Ghost is that we come to know the truth, not philosiphize over what may or may not be. This is true of any and all principles. Many people like to think, but few are willing to pay the price of study, fasting, and prayer to really understand the principles.

As for you comment. "Intelligences" did not exist as organized entities until they were born as spirit children of our Heavenly father. Look up and read "The father and the son, doctrinal exposition by the first presidency and the 12." So, why do you and many others believe that intelligences existed as an organized entity before they were born as spirit children? Do you have a reference? Of course some people have taught that, but is it in the scriptures? And what have the unified priesthood bodies said about it?

If you're referencing "intelligence"--the matter from which spirit children are made, it had no beginning, nor an end. You physical body is made from "dust" which is matter which had no beginning nor an end. There was no "you" or "pre-you" before you were born as a spirit child. No credible revelatory outlet has ever taught it. Many former and current BYU professors will teach it, but it is contrary to what the unified priesthood body has taught on the matter (see D&C 107:27,29).

I have started looking in the places where "intelligences" are listed among my reading and in no specific place can I find the idea that intelligences existed before they were spirits. Instead, I am finding several references that seem to indicate otherwise. Such as Abraham 3: 21-22:

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the aworks which my hands have made, wherein my bwisdom excelleth them all, for I crule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the aintelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the bnoble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.

Note that as God stood amidst the intelligences "before the world was" that he said, "These I will make my rulers (referring to the intelligences), for he stood among those that were spirits." Now I assume by this God was referring to the intelligences and those with spirits as being the same things. Instead of reading it that he would make certain [dogs] rules as he stood among [cats that are not dogs].

Interesting aliasgeorge, you have caused me to question a belief, something I dearly appreciate. I am a big proponent of knowing why you believe what you believe, researching and sourcing it for yourself because otherwise what I call non-cannon scripture can enter in as has so much in the traditional Christian church. I will have to look further into the idea that I somehow got in my head that "intelligences" existed before they were formed into spirit children.

[ztodd]

In the family proclamation found here it states

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

To me that sounds like gender is an eternal characteristic that was always with us and will always be with us and that we didn't choose it.

Thank you. I was a little surprised it took 6 pages before someone quoted this.

Tell your daughter this is what the church teaches. Gender is an essential, premortal, eternal characteristic.

.

[Hemidakota]

Scriptures were not silent at all....our own understanding with lacking faith, has made it silent. What is the key here? DESIRE. Remember in Abraham, what was the greatest desire that Abraham wanted. As I do believe not all prophets are will be privy to the beginning of man. Not to forget, something we must remember here, that GOD is never respecter of person but those who will follow HIS will and can be instructed on what is edifying for their salvation. This is not a simple task to receive since one must be a ‘friend’ of GOS in order to be instructed. Neither the creation is given in one literal term but a story of 'what was.'

As to intelligence, we were not in the same image of GOD in the beginning, which is quite clear in both accounts of the scriptures. So what was our image prior to the spirit body? The answer lies in the works of Genesis to both Abraham and Moses account. As intelligence is not the spirit. Joseph did teach the Intelligence inhabits the Spirit body, which inhabits the mortal body.

When we listen and instructed by the Holy Ghost, what is clear, Joseph has learned alot more than what was given [taught] and some of which, I now understand, cannot be taught for a reason of gospel maturity. Desire is the stepping stone in answering those questions of life and having the patience to listen when instructed is the answer of that desire.