Questioning the prophet

[BenRaines]

I think in the church it is called common consent, we do not vote but we choose to sustain the decision or to oppose it.

I know it is probably a matter of semantics but for me it is a point of attitude.

Ben Raines

[annewandering]

it is an important distinction.

we sustain whether or not we will accept the revelation in our lives. its not really to vote on whether its from God. just if we are going to do it and be held accountable or not.

[gabelpa]

I understand that the Prophet can speak as a man. However i was taught General conference is doctrine(This is the popular opinion at MAD as well) This is why we are supposed to avoid R rated movies, why men don't wear piercings, why I have never met a Bishop who allows Sacrament to be blessed or passed by someone who's not in proper attire and why you can't get a temple recommend if you view pornography.Most if not all believe these things to be doctrine and they came from conference talks.

=

so do we take the one from President Lee or a more recent one from President Monson who was a member of the First Presidency at the time? My understanding would be the more recent one would be correct

-Charley

[zookeeper]

James E. Faust-

"The Savior’s teaching that handicaps are not punishment for sin, either in the parents or the handicapped, can also be understood and applied in today’s circumstances. How can it possibly be said that an innocent child born with a special problem is being punished? Why should parents who have kept themselves free from social disease, addicting chemicals, and other debilitating substances which might affect their offspring imagine that the birth of a disabled child is some form of divine disapproval? Usually, both the parents and the children are blameless. The Savior of the world reminds us that God “maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matt. 5:45.)

I'm not going to argue Harold B Lee's words...They CAN co-exist!! I don't see how one can conclude, after reading Lee's statement, that mentally handicapped people were not valiant.

That is like saying..."George makes blue cars. Therefore, ALL blue cars were made by George" This is ridiculous! Harold B Lee was suggesting that those less valiant were given challenges of location, race, or physical barriers. How does this mean that everyone handicapped is of this category? Here's another question...Why would a less valiant being be sent to the earth and be free from the effects of sin? That doesn't make sense!

[Hemidakota]

This is a spin off from the thread about mentally handicap people. The question was asked why they are that way and a quote , given at general conference by Prophet Harold B Lee was given explaining that they were less valiant in the pre existence and many people have come to the conclusion that he is wrong. Many explained about how their brother,sister,uncle aunt kid etc had this issue and they new it couldn't be right. How is this any different then someone with a gay relative saying that President Monson is wrong about homosexuality?

I'm just trying to understand how a member can disregard the words from a Prophet of God on one subject (especially something as unknown as pre existence) while taking everything else at general conference as doctrine?

Where do we draw the line?

Did a later Prophet tell us that Harold B Lee was wrong or is it our own human bias (having a dog in the fight so to speak) causing us to second guess what he said?

And if we can do it on one issue. What will keep us from doing it on another?

After rereading this quote, my conversation and replies are dealing with those less-valiant spirits be given lesser foreunate circumstances in being born in this life and not those who were born hadicapped. Now, we do know in the scriptures, during time of the Savior, cirucmstances of ones life lead some to become handicapped through personal sins. This is what is being expressed here and not those who were spiritually valiant in heaven and allowed to born in this world handicapped.

[WANDERER]

What...you are less valiant when you are less accountable to God....that's called mercy and everyone partakes of that.

If you are autistic and hugely fearful of social situations and you come to church...you're certainly demonstrating valiance. The challenges and difficulties are huge. Less accountability and greater mercy is there for a reason. Not because they are least.

[Hemidakota]

President Joseph Fielding Smith once stated:

Now, the gospel of Jesus Christ is the means of our salvation and exaltation. I have often wondered why some members of the Church were members of the Church, because they do not live in accordance with the principles of eternal truth. There is only one reason for membership in this Church, as I understand it, and that is as a means of receiving salvation and exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God. If that is not our aim then why are we in the Church?

I know a man who went to school when I went to school, we played together, went to school together. When he grew to be a man he went East and became a scientist. He came back, and then he began to create a great deal of disturbance in the Sunday School classes questioning the revelations that had been given through the Prophet Joseph Smith. This came to my attention when one of the members of that class came to me and said, "This brother comes to our class, and he is just a disturbance."

As I was well acquainted with him, I made it my duty to get hold of him, and I asked him why he did those things; and was disturbing the members of the class.

"Well," he said, "I cannot accept all of the revelations that were given to the Prophet Joseph Smith."

"Are there any of them that you can accept?"

"Yes," he said, "I can accept some of them," but he could not accept all of the doctrines that had come through the revelations of our Father in heaven and his Son Jesus Christ to the Church.

After we got through with the conversation, and I had a long conversation with him, he said, "Now, I am going to ask you one favor. Please do not take any step to have me excommunicated."

I said, "Why do you want to stay in the Church when you are opposing its doctrines?"

He said, "I will tell you why. I was raised in the Church, and my friends are members of the Church. I have few associations outside of the Church. If I should be excommunicated that means that I should be cut off from all communication, all fellowship with the people with whom I am now associating, and I do not want that to happen. So please do not take any steps to have me excommunicated."

I thought there was some hope for him so I did not take any such step, but I did talk to him kindly and try to get him to see the folly of his ways, to repent, and when he went to the classes and he could go to the classes, he should not go with that spirit of defiance or opposition to the doctrines which the others believed. I said, "If you don't believe them, then keep still and see if you cannot get the Spirit of the Lord so that you can accept them."

Well, he is dead now. I do not know whether he repented or not, but brethren, the gospel of Jesus Christ is the most vital thing in all the world to us. We should so live that we can accept every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, and that is a commandment from him.

Now if we have the right spirit, that is what we are going to do. If there is any doctrine or principle connected with the teachings of the Church that we do not understand, then let us get on our knees. Let us go before the Lord in the spirit of prayer, of humility, and ask that our minds might be enlightened that we may understand. This Church is not teaching false doctrine. All the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith are absolutely true. They are given for our salvation, for our knowledge, for our understanding, that we may draw nearer and nearer to our Father in heaven, and be found worthy before him and eventually have the privilege of coming into his presence, there to be crowned as sons and daughters of God, receiving the fulness of his kingdom.

The Lord bless you, my good brethren and sisters, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

If anyone is in disagreement with the prophet or doctrines given, then why are you still attending church?

[hordak]

President Joseph Fielding Smith once stated:

If anyone is in disagreement with the prophet or doctrines given, then why are you still attending church?

For 100 some years the church keep dark skinned people from receiving the priesthood.I'm sure there were members who disagreed with this yet stayed in the church. They didn't leave because they believed other things.Eventually Revelation occurred and gave the priesthood to everyone.

I don't know if it was doctrine or personal opinion but i do know the church changed it.

Perhaps we believe X doctrine is like the priesthood ban doesn't matter, and will be changed.

[BenRaines]

The church kept them from the priesthood? I thought that this was Christ's church and he reveals what he wants done with it through the President of the Church. As I understand it then that is what Christ wanted, for whatever his reasons. There has been little done in the church in the last 40 years that I have been a member that moved me more than the revelation in 1978 that allowed all worthy males to hold the priesthood.

Ben Raines

[Hemidakota]

It was not DARK SKIN people but those who from Canaan lineage. My friend Scott was Caucasian and was also denied the priesthood due to his Canaan ancestry. Well? Hmm…

Also, I am sure if you studied it out thoroughly, if doctrine 'X' is a problem, then seek a personal answer from GOD for added clarity.

[jolee65]

I worked with mentally disabled adults I had a very strong feeling of working with very special spirits

be it less valiant in there pre existence or not they ment the world to me. But if anyone has been around a person that just carrys a heavy vibe about them like surrounded by bad spirits, I hope you know what I mean by that if you have the gift of the Holy Ghost and your sensitive enough you can feel the bad as well as the good , I would feel it when I was around the Members 'we had a club house setting so they were members of the club house' not that they were bad people but they were surrounded heavely by bad spirits I feel it was to hold then down in this world too.

[MormonMama]

For 100 some years the church keep dark skinned people from receiving the priesthood.

The church did not keep Blacks from holding the priesthood, that was the Lord's decision. In fact, some Blacks could hold the priesthood. Only those of certain descent (as has already been pointed out) could not.

It was the Lord's decision to rescind that ban. Many members, including church leaders, prayed for many years for the ban to be lifted.

In addition. the LDS church was one of the few churches in its early days which allowed Blacks to worship alongside Whites. Many churches at the time still segregated them, or held separate services entirely for Blacks.

[Moksha]

It was not DARK SKIN people but those who from Canaan lineage. My friend Scott was Caucasian and was also denied the priesthood due to his Canaan ancestry. Well? Hmm…

This was merely racism that passed as Church policy. We are beyond that point and should abandon all attempts to justify it as something more than what it truly was.

Beyond that, any speculations as to someone being more valiant or less valiant is fraught with problems, starting with its mere utterance, since it inevitably results in putting some group down or elevating another.

[Hemidakota]

Not likely a racism view unless you are telling the Savior otherwise. How often in the past were other cultures denied the priesthood?

Interesting speculation on your behalf.

[MormonMama]

This was merely racism that passed as Church policy. We are beyond that point and should abandon all attempts to justify it as something more than what it truly was.

If you believe it is racism, then you can't possibly believe the Lord directs this church.

If you believe the Lord directs this church, then you can't possibly believe it was racism, unless you're going to accuse the Lord of racism.

If I believed for one second that it was racism (especially in light of the fact that the church was more welcoming to Blacks than many other churches of the time), I could not possibly be a member of this church.

We may not like or understand all of the Lord's directives, but we must accept that he has his reasons and knows better than we do what is and isn't correct or appropriate. If we take a stance that anything we don't like or understand is bad and cannot be of God, then we are relying solely on our own minds and opinions and "the arm of flesh", and not on God.

[hordak]

The church did not keep Blacks from holding the priesthood, that was the Lord's decision. In fact, some Blacks could hold the priesthood. Only those of certain descent (as has already been pointed out) could not.

It was the Lord's decision to rescind that ban. Many members, including church leaders, prayed for many years for the ban to be lifted.

In addition. the LDS church was one of the few churches in its early days which allowed Blacks to worship alongside Whites. Many churches at the time still segregated them, or held separate services entirely for Blacks.

"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

-Bruce R. McConkie

This seem ambiguous. So it could have been revelation or racist policy as Moksha suggest

but that's not the point of the statement. Point is the church has had policies / doctrine in effect that members didn't like.The ban ,polygamy , temple recommend questions, stances on birth control? etc. But changed these things.So to answer hemidakotas question people who stay but have problems with certain doctrine / policy do it because they know the doctrine can change.

[BenRaines]

Hey you all have your own agency. Use it as you wish. I would encourage all to follow the prophet but do as you wish. I will not try to convince you to do otherwise. Allow me the same courtesy. My family and I choose to follow the current living prophet.

Ben Raines

[MormonMama]

This seem ambiguous. So it could have been revelation or racist policy as Moksha suggest....

I totally disagree. That is the argument the Pharisees and Sadducees gave Christ when he fulfilled the law and did away with such things as animal sacrifice and "an eye for an eye". They felt that the laws could never be changed. Does that mean prophets like Moses were wrong to institute such things, since Christ did away with them? No. It means that the Lord gives us commandments based on what we need and are ready for at the time. And he gives those commandments through his prophets, always. If a new commandment is given through the prophet, it does not mean the previous prophet was wrong or racist or what-have-you. It means that the church is ready for something else.

I agree that we are to follow the prophet whether we agree or understand or not. But if I truly felt the ban on the priesthood was instituted only for racist reasons, then I would have to believe that it was not of the Lord and that hence the prophet was not truly acting under the Lord's direction. And if I believed that, I could not be a member of this church.

My beef is not with those who struggle to understand a commandment. My beef is with those who believe the prophet does not act under direction from the Lord in leading this church.

Edited December 2, 2008 by MormonMama

[Elgama]

Hey you all have your own agency. Use it as you wish. I would encourage all to follow the prophet but do as you wish. I will not try to convince you to do otherwise. Allow me the same courtesy. My family and I choose to follow the current living prophet.

Ben Raines

WOW Ben and I have been agreeing a lot lately - this is where our house stands. President Monson doesn't know - neither do I.

What I do know is this is not remotely pertinent to my personal salvation or progression so in this instance what I feel or think is unimportant- there is a theme in the Chronicles of Narnia (amongst many lol) where the children are told they only have their own story revealed unto them,I do have Dyspraxia but not sure that is a mental or physical impairment, same with my Fibromyalgia lol Maybe it was because I was less valiant in the pre-existence, I do know in my current existence I struggle to really feel anything but pity for Satan. But quite frankly its unimportant

But another CS Lewis quote goes along the lines of In the current moment we touch the eternals the decisions we take in the moment are what affect our eternities, what is behind us is in the past and no longer affects us unless we let it, and we do not know yet what is ahead of us.

I actually think the valiance of a spirit is very unimportant - I don't know if I was valiant in the pre-existence, however have had blessings that have told me I am doing the very best I can with the circumstances the Lord has given me and he is proud of me, that makes me valiant right now, but that is in vein if I am not valiant again tommorrow.

-Charley

[HiJolly]

Not likely a racism view unless you are telling the Savior otherwise. How often in the past were other cultures denied the priesthood?

Interesting speculation on your behalf.

Moksha is right, he is just forgoing the normal politically correct song-and-dance that most LDS are used to when we talk about this aspect of Church history. (and, as you can see, so am I)

There is no question at all as to the views of brethren like Harold B. Lee and Mark E. Peterson (for example) regarding questions such as marriage between the races. If you have not come across these quotes, then I am not surprised, yet they do exist, and from reliable sources, at that. From the vantagepoint of the 21st century, there is no other more appropriate word to describe their comments, except 'racist'. Perhaps "culturally biased racism" would sound better?

There is not a single revelation to a modern prophet of the Church forbidding the conveyance of the priesthood to a 'decendant of Canaan'. Apparently, it was a policy of the Church that was embraced sometime after the death of Joseph Smith, Jr., partially ameliorated by President McKay, and only eliminated after the passing of President Lee and Elder Peterson.

Blacks in the Scriptures - Black / Negro Mormon LDS history & Doctrine

Racist statements by Church leaders - FAIRMormon

This is one (and only one) reason why studying Church history can be a problem for some people. If you cannot see the wart that truly sits on your chin, it's not a problem with your eye, it is a problem with your mind. They say the truth hurts. So true.

This is also a good reason to draw a distinction between scripture and comments made from the pulpit, even the General Conference pulpit. It is not just a matter of semantics, but is deeply meaningful.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

-Bruce R. McConkie

Are you referring to this article?

Revelation on Priesthood

Personal Testimony of Revelation on Priesthood

I was present when the Lord revealed to President Spencer W. Kimball that the time had come, in His eternal providences, to offer the fulness of the gospel and the blessings of the holy priesthood to all men.

I was present, with my brethren of the Twelve and the counselors in the First Presidency, when all of us heard the same voice and received the same message from on high.

It was on a glorious June day in 1978. All of us were together in an upper room in the Salt Lake Temple. We were engaged in fervent prayer, pleading with the Lord to manifest his mind and will concerning those who are entitled to receive his holy priesthood. President Kimball himself was mouth, offering the desires of his heart and of our hearts to that God whose servants we are.

In his prayer President Kimball asked that all of us might be cleansed and made free from sin so that we might receive the Lord's word. He counseled freely and fully with the Lord, was given utterance by the power of the Spirit, and what he said was inspired from on high. It was one of those rare and seldom-experienced times when the disciples of the Lord are perfectly united, when every heart beats as one, and when the same Spirit burns in every bosom.

Perfect Unity Among Presidency and Twelve

I have thought since that our united prayer must have been like that of the Nephite disciples-the Lord's Twelve in that day and for that people-who "were gathered together and were united in mighty prayer and fasting" to learn the name that the Lord had given to his Church (3 Ne. 27:1-3). In their day the Lord came personally to answer their petition; in our day he sent his Spirit to deliver the message.

And as it was with our Nephite brethren of old, so it was with us. We too had come together in the spirit of true worship and with unity of desire. We were all fasting and had just concluded a meeting of some three hours' duration that was attended by nearly' all of the General Authorities. That meeting was also held in the room of the First Presidency and the Twelve in the holy temple. In it we had been counseled by the First Presidency, had heard the messages and testimonies of about fifteen of the Brethren, had renewed our covenants, in the ordinance of sacrament, to serve God and keep his commandments that we might always have his Spirit to be with us, and, surrounding the holy altar, had offered up the desire of our hearts to the Lord. After this meeting, which was one of great spiritual uplift and enlightenment, all of the Brethren except those in the Presidency and the Twelve were excused.

President Kimball Directs

When we were alone by ourselves in that sacred place where we meet weekly to wait upon the Lord, to seek guidance from his Spirit, and to transact the affairs of his earthly kingdom, President Kimball brought up the matter of the possible conferral of the priesthood upon those of all races. This was a subject that the group of us had discussed at length on numerous occasions in the preceding weeks and months. The President restated the problem involved, reminded us of our prior discussions, and said he had spent many days alone in this upper room pleading with the Lord for an answer to our prayers. He said that if the answer was to continue our present course of denying the priesthood to the seed of Cain, as the Lord had theretofore directed, he was prepared to defend that decision to the death. But, he said, if the long-sought day had come in which the curse of the past was to be removed, he thought we might prevail upon the Lord so to indicate. He expressed the hope that we might receive a clear answer one way or the other so the matter might be laid to rest.

The Brethren Share Feelings

At this point President Kimball asked the Brethren if any of them desired to express their feelings and views as to the matter in hand. We all did so, freely and fluently and at considerable length, each person stating his views and manifesting the feelings of his heart. There was a marvelous outpouring of unity, oneness, and agreement in council. This session continued for somewhat more than two hours. Then President Kimball suggested that we unite in formal prayer and said, modestly, that if it was agreeable with the rest of us he would act as voice.

Brethren Unite in Prayer

It was during that prayer that the revelation came. The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon us all; we felt something akin to what happened on the day of Pentecost and at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. From the midst of eternity, the voice of God, conveyed by the power of the Spirit, spoke to his prophet. The message was that the time had now come to offer the fulness of the everlasting gospel, including celestial marriage, and the priesthood, and the blessings of the temple, to all men, without reference to race or color, solely on the basis of personal worthiness. And we all heard the same voice, received the same message, and became personal witnesses that the word received was the mind and will and voice of the Lord.

President Kimball's prayer was answered and our prayers were answered. He heard the voice and we heard the same voice. All doubt and uncertainty fled. He knew the answer and we knew the answer. And we are all living witnesses of the truthfulness of the word so graciously sent from heaven.

Ancient Curse Removed

The ancient curse is no more. The seed of Cain and Ham and Canaan and Egyptus and Pharaoh (Abr. 1:20-27; Moses 5:16-41; 7:8, 22) -all these now have power to rise up and bless Abraham as their father. All these, Gentile in lineage, may now come and inherit by adoption all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Rom. 8:14-24; 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], pp. 149-50). All these may now be numbered with those in the one fold of the one shepherd who is Lord of all.

A Powerful Witness

In the days that followed the receipt of the new revelation, President Kimball and President Ezra Taft Benson-the senior and most spiritually experienced ones among us-both said, expressing the feelings of us all, that neither of them had ever experienced anything of such spiritual magnitude and power as was poured out upon the Presidency and the Twelve that day in the upper room in the house of the Lord. And of it I say: I was there; I heard the voice: and the Lord be praised that it has come to pass in our day.

"All Are Alike Unto God"

Not long after this revelation came, I was scheduled to address nearly a thousand seminary and institute teachers on a Book of Mormon subject. After I arrived on the stand, Brother Joe J. Christensen, under whose direction the symposium was going forward, asked me to depart from my prepared talk and give those assembled some guidance relative to the new revelation. He asked if I would take 2 Nephi 26:33 as a text. This I agreed to do, and, accordingly, spoke the following words:

I would like to say something about the new revelation relative to our taking the priesthood to those of all nations and races. "He [meaning Christ, who is the Lord God] inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile" (2 Ne. 26:33).

These words have now taken on a new meaning. We have caught a new vision of their true significance. This also applies to a great number of other passages in the revelations. Since the Lord gave this revelation on the priesthood, our understanding of many passages has expanded. Many of us never imagined or supposed that they had the extensive and broad meaning that they do have.

I shall give you a few impressions relative to what has happened, and then attempt-if properly guided by the Spirit-to indicate to you the great significance that this event has in the Church, in the world, and where the rolling forth of the great gospel is concerned.

Gospel Preached on a Priority Basis

The gospel goes to various peoples and nations on a priority basis. We were commanded in the early days of this dispensation to preach the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people (see D&C 133:8, 16). Our revelations talk about its going to every creature (D&C 18:26-28; 58:64; 68:8; 80:1; 112:28-29; 124:128). There was, of course, no possible way for us to do all of this in the beginning days of our dispensation, nor can we now, in the full sense.

And so, guided by inspiration, we began to go from one nation and one culture to another. Someday, in the providences of the Lord, we shall get into Red China and Russia and the Middle East, and so on, until eventually the gospel will have been preached everywhere, to all people; and this will occur before the second coming of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:14; JS-M 1:31).

Not only is the gospel to go, on a priority basis and harmonious to a divine timetable, to one nation after another, but the whole history of God's dealings with men on earth indicates that such has been the case in the past; it has been restricted and limited where many people are concerned. For instance, in the day between Moses and Christ, the gospel went to the house of Israel almost exclusively. By the time of Jesus, the legal administrators and prophetic associates that he had were so fully indoctrinated with the concept of having the gospel go only to the house of Israel that they were totally unable to envision the true significance of his proclamation that after the Resurrection they should then go to all the world. They did not go to the gentile nations initially. In his own ministration, Jesus preached only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and had so commanded the Apostles (Matt. 10:6).

It is true that he made a few minor exceptions because of the faith and devotion of some gentile people. There was one woman who wanted to eat the crumbs that fell from the table of the children, causing him to say, "O woman, great is thy faith." (Matt. 15:28; see also Mark 7:27-28; Matt. 9:10; Luke 7:9.) With some minor exceptions, the gospel in that day went exclusively to Israel. The Lord had to give Peter the vision and revelation of the sheet coming down from heaven with the unclean meat on it, following which Cornelius sent the messenger to Peter to learn what he, Cornelius, and his gentile associates should do. The Lord commanded them that the gospel should go to the Gentiles, and so it was. (Acts 10:1-35.) There was about a quarter of a century, then, in New Testament times, when there were extreme difficulties among the Saints. They were weighing and evaluating, struggling with the problems of whether the gospel was to go only to the house of Israel or whether it now went to all men. Could all men come to him on an equal basis with the seed of Abraham?

There have been these problems, and the Lord has permitted them to arise. There is not any question about that. We do not envision the whole reason and purpose behind all of this; we can only suppose and reason that it is on the basis of preexistence and of our premortal devotion and faith.

You know this principle: God "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him" (Acts 17:26-27)-meaning that there is an appointed time for successive nations and peoples and races and cultures to be offered the saving truths of the gospel. There are nations today to whom we have not gone-notably Red China and Russia. But you can rest assured that we will fulfill the requirement of taking the gospel to those nations before the second coming of the Son of Man.

Gospel to Cover Earth Before Second Coming

And I have no hesitancy whatever in saying that before the Lord comes, in all those nations we will have congregations that are stable, secure, devoted, and sound. We will have stakes of Zion. We will have people who have progressed in spiritual things to the point where they have received all of the blessings of the house of the Lord. That is the destiny.

We have revelations that tell us that the gospel is to go to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people before the second coming of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:14; JS-M 1:31). And we have revelations that recite that when the Lord comes, he will find those who speak every tongue and are members of every nation and kindred, who will be kings and priests, who will live and reign on earth with him a thousand years (Rev. 5:9-10; 1 Ne. 14:12; D&C 90:11). That means, as you know, that people from all nations will have the blessings of the house of the Lord before the Second Coming.

We Follow Living Prophets

We have read these passages and their associated passages for many years. We have seen what the words say and have said to ourselves, "Yes, it says that, but we must read out of it the taking of the gospel and the blessings of the temple to the Negro people, because they are denied certain things." There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

We get our truth and light line upon line and precept upon precept (2 Ne. 28:30; Isa. 28:9-10; D&C 98:11-12; 128:21). We have now added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter anymore.1

It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles.

Time Had Come in the Lord's Timetable

Obviously, the Brethren had had a great anxiety and concern about this problem for a long period of time, and President Spencer W. Kimball had been exercised and had sought the Lord in faith. When we seek the Lord on a matter, with sufficient faith and devotion, he gives us an answer. You will recall that the Book of Mormon teaches that if the Apostles in Jerusalem had asked the Lord, he would have told them about the Nephites (3 Ne. 15:18-24; 16:4). But they did not ask, and they did not manifest the faith-and they did not get an answer. One underlying reason for what happened to us is that the Brethren asked in faith; they petitioned and desired and wanted an answer-President Kimball in particular. And the other underlying principle is that in the eternal providences of the Lord, the time had come for extending the gospel to a race and a culture to whom it had previously been denied, at least as far as all of its blessings are concerned. So it was a matter of faith and righteousness and seeking on the one hand, and it was a matter of the divine timetable on the other hand. The time had arrived when the gospel, with all its blessings and obligations, should go to the Negro.

President Kimball Offers Inspired Prayer

Thus, in that setting, on the first day of June 1978, the First Presidency and the Twelve, after full discussions of the proposition and all the premises and principles that are involved, importuned the Lord for a revelation.

President Kimball was mouth, and he prayed with great faith and great fervor; this was one of those occasions when an inspired prayer was offered. You know the Doctrine and Covenants' statement that if we pray by the power of the Spirit we will receive answers to our prayers and it will be given us what we shall ask (D&C 50:30). It was given the President what he should ask. He prayed by the power of the Spirit, and there was a perfect unity, total and complete harmony, between the Presidency and the Twelve on the issue involved.

Revelation Came-And Comes-By Holy Ghost

And when President Kimball finished his prayer, the Lord gave a revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost. Revelation primarily comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. Always that member of the Godhead is involved. But most revelations, from the beginning to now, have come in that way. There have been revelations given in various ways on other occasions. The Father and the Son appeared in the Sacred Grove. Moroni, an angel from heaven, came relative to the Book of Mormon and the plates and relative to instructing the Prophet in the affairs that were destined to occur in this dispensation. There have been visions, notably the vision of the degrees of glory. There may be an infinite number of ways that God can ordain that revelations come. But, primarily, revelation comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. The principle is set forth in the Doctrine and Covenants (D&C 68:3-4), that whatever the elders of the Church speak, when moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost, shall be scripture, shall be the mind and will and voice of the Lord.

[Hemidakota]

Part 2 of 2

Presidency and Twelve United Witnesses

on this occasion, because of the importuning and the faith, and because the hour and the time had arrived, the Lord in his providences poured out the Holy Ghost upon the First Presidency and the Twelve in a miraculous and marvelous manner, beyond anything that any then present had ever experienced. The revelation came to the President of the Church; it also came to each individual present. There were ten members of the Council of the Twelve and three of the First Presidency there assembled. The result was that President Kimball knew, and each one of us knew, independent of any other person, by direct and personal revelation to us, that the time had now come to extend the gospel and all its blessings and all its obligations, including the priesthood and the blessings of the house of the Lord, to those of every nation, culture, and race, including the black race. There was no question whatsoever as to what happened or as to the word and message that came.

The revelation came to the President of the Church, and in harmony with Church government, was announced by him; the announcement was made eight days later over the signature of the First Presidency. But in this instance, in addition to the revelation coming to the man who would announce it to the Church and to the world, and who was sustained as the mouthpiece of God on earth, the revelation came to every member of the body that I have named. They all knew it in the temple.

Eternal Import of This Revelation

In my judgment this was done by the Lord in this way because it was a revelation of such tremendous significance and import; one that would reverse the whole direction of the Church, procedurally and administratively; one that would affect the living and the dead; one that would affect the total relationship that we have with the world; one, I say, of such significance that the Lord wanted witnesses who could bear record that the thing had happened.

Now, if President Kimball had received the revelation and had asked for a sustaining vote, obviously he would have received it and the revelation would have been announced. But the Lord chose this other course, in my judgment, because of the tremendous import and the eternal significance of what was being revealed. This affects our missionary work and all of our preaching to the world. This affects our genealogical research and all of our temple ordinances. This affects what is going on in the spirit world, because the gospel is preached in the spirit world preparatory to men's receiving the vicarious ordinances that make them heirs to salvation and exaltation. This is a revelation of tremendous significance.

Revelation Affects Both Sides of the Veil

The vision of the degrees of glory begins by saying, "Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, 0 earth" (D&C 76:1 ). In other words, in that revelation the Lord was announcing truth to heaven and to earth because those principles of salvation operate on both sides of the veil; and salvation is administered to an extent here to men, and it is administered to another extent in the spirit world. We correlate and combine our activities and do certain things for the salvation of men while we are in mortality, and then certain things are done for the salvation of men while they are in the spirit world awaiting the day of resurrection.

Saints Should Avoid Speculation and Exaggeration

Once again a revelation was given that affects this sphere of activity and the sphere that is to come. And so it has tremendous significance; the eternal import was such that it came in the way it did. The Lord could have sent messengers from the other side to deliver it, but he did not. He gave the revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost. Latter-day Saints have a complex: many of them desire to magnify and build upon what has occurred, and they delight to think of miraculous things. And maybe some of them would like to believe that the Lord himself was there, or that the Prophet Joseph Smith came to deliver the revelation, which was one of the possibilities. Well, these things did not happen. The stories that go around to the contrary are not factual or realistic or true, and you as teachers in the Church Educational System will be in a position to explain and to tell your students that this thing came by the power of the Holy Ghost, and that all the Brethren involved, the thirteen who were present, are independent personal witnesses of the truth and divinity of what occurred.

Revelation Incomprehensible to Carnal Mind

There is no way to describe in language what is involved. This cannot be done. You are familiar with the Book of Mormon references where the account says that no tongue could tell and no pen could write what was involved in the experience and that it had to be felt by the power of the Spirit (3 Ne. 19:32; see also 3 Ne. 17:15-17). This was one of those occasions. To carnal people who do not understand the operating of the Holy Spirit of God upon the souls of man, this may sound like gibberish or jargon or uncertainty or ambiguity; but to those who are enlightened by the power of the Spirit and who have themselves felt its power, it will have a ring of veracity and truth, and they will know of its verity. I cannot describe in words what happened; I can only say that it happened and that it can be known and understood only by the feeling that can come into the heart of man. You cannot describe a testimony to someone. No one can really know what a testimony is-the feeling and the joy and the rejoicing and the happiness that come into the heart of man when he gets one-except another person who has received a testimony. Some things can be known only by revelation. "The things of God knoweth no man, except he has the Spirit of God" (Joseph Smith Translation 1 Cor. 2:11).

This Revelation a Sign of the Times

This is a brief explanation of what was involved in this new revelation. I think I can add that it is one of the signs of the times. It is something that had to occur before the Second Coming. It was something that was mandatory and imperative in order to enable us to fulfill all of the revelations that are involved, in order to spread the gospel in the way that the scriptures say it must spread before the Lord comes, in order for all of the blessings to come to all of the people, according to the promises. It is one of the signs of the times.

All the Brethren United in Testimony

This revelation that came on the first day of June 1978 was reaffirmed by the spirit of inspiration one week later on June 8, when the Brethren approved the document that was to be announced to the world. And then it was reaffirmed the next day, on Friday, June 9, with all of the General Authorities present in the temple, that is, all who were available. All received the assurance and witness and confirmation by the power of the Spirit that what had occurred was the mind, the will, the intent, and the purpose of the Lord.

God Guiding the Church

This is a wondrous thing; the veil is thin. The Lord is not far distant from his church.

President Kimball is a man of almost infinite spiritual capacity-a tremendous spiritual giant. The Lord has magnified him beyond any understanding or expression and has given him His mind and His will on a great number of vital matters that have altered the course of the past-one of which is the organization of the First Quorum of the Seventy. As you know, the Church is being guided and led by the power of the Holy Ghost, and the Lord's hand is in it. There is no question whatever about that. And we are doing the right thing where this matter is concerned.

Great Gratitude Because of This Revelation

There has been a tremendous feeling of gratitude and thanksgiving in the hearts of members of the Church everywhere, with isolated exceptions. There are individuals who are out of harmony on this and on plural marriage and on other doctrines, but for all general purposes there has been universal acceptance; and everyone who has been in tune with the Spirit has known that the Lord spoke, and that his mind and his purposes are being manifest in the course the Church is pursuing.

We talk about the scriptures being unfolded-read again the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Matt. 20:1-16) and remind yourselves that those who labor through the heat of the day for twelve hours are going to be rewarded the same as those who came in at the third and sixth and eleventh hours. Well, it is the eleventh hour; it is the Saturday night of time. In this eleventh hour the Lord has given the blessings of the gospel to the last group of laborers in the vineyard. And when he metes out his rewards, when he makes his payments, according to the accounts and the spiritual statements, he will give the penny to all, whether it is for one hour or twelve hours of work. All are alike unto God, black and white, bond and free, male and female. (Priesthood [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], pp. 126-37.)

Notes

1 Illustrating the perfect harmony that exists between the doctrine and practice of the Church both here and in the spirit world, Elder McConkie said to a family gathering in Colorado Springs, on July 26, 1978, "This means that the same revelation had to be given to the Brethren in the Church in the spirit world, so that they can conform their preaching of the gospel to our new system on earth."

At that same gathering, to dramatize the significance of this revelation, he said, "This revelation is something in the same category as the revelation which caused Wilford Woodruff to issue the Manifesto."

[Hemidakota]

Hordack, at times I do wonder why some apostles were not allow to live long enough in order to be a prophet.

[Hemidakota]

WOW Ben and I have been agreeing a lot lately - this is where our house stands. President Monson doesn't know - neither do I.

What I do know is this is not remotely pertinent to my personal salvation or progression so in this instance what I feel or think is unimportant- there is a theme in the Chronicles of Narnia (amongst many lol) where the children are told they only have their own story revealed unto them,I do have Dyspraxia but not sure that is a mental or physical impairment, same with my Fibromyalgia lol Maybe it was because I was less valiant in the pre-existence, I do know in my current existence I struggle to really feel anything but pity for Satan. But quite frankly its unimportant

But another CS Lewis quote goes along the lines of In the current moment we touch the eternals the decisions we take in the moment are what affect our eternities, what is behind us is in the past and no longer affects us unless we let it, and we do not know yet what is ahead of us.

I actually think the valiance of a spirit is very unimportant - I don't know if I was valiant in the pre-existence, however have had blessings that have told me I am doing the very best I can with the circumstances the Lord has given me and he is proud of me, that makes me valiant right now, but that is in vein if I am not valiant again tommorrow.

-Charley

It may not be relevant for both the Prophet or you but for me, it was revelant for my personal salvation. There were topics even Elder McConkie did not know either.

It is up to FATHER and the Savior to instruct HIS children on what is important for us, either as a church or individual that is fitting to our salvation.

If one does not receive an answer, it doesn't subscribed to the masses they cannot receive an answer.

[HiJolly]

If you believe it is racism, then you can't possibly believe the Lord directs this church.

That is not true.

If you believe the Lord directs this church, then you can't possibly believe it was racism, unless you're going to accuse the Lord of racism.

Also not true.

If I believed for one second that it was racism (especially in light of the fact that the church was more welcoming to Blacks than many other churches of the time), I could not possibly be a member of this church.

Yes, you could.

I truly don't understand how you can say such things.

We may not like or understand all of the Lord's directives, but we must accept that he has his reasons and knows better than we do what is and isn't correct or appropriate. If we take a stance that anything we don't like or understand is bad and cannot be of God, then we are relying solely on our own minds and opinions and "the arm of flesh", and not on God.

This is just a guess, but I'm guessing you've not spent a lot of time rubbing shoulders with a living prophet. I guess that's not your fault, yet I would warn you against making a prophet something he is not. Prophets are people, with faults, mistakes, biases and errors -- even when they are at the pulpit.

Yet they do receive inspiration and revelations and they do indeed receive these things not only for the Church, but for all the world.

HiJolly