Tithing and blessing the poor

[Traveler]

Should the poor pay tithing? I find it interesting that some are so disrespectful of the poor to think otherwise. Even the poor have every right to participate in and pay tithing. It is always an honor, privilege and an indication of great love and compassion to offer a true sacrifice to help others.

I personally am grateful that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints encourages and allows all to enjoy and participate in demonstrating gratitude and thanks for what they have – be it an abundance or a pittance. That every member (regardless of their station) can in full conscience be a part of giving and paying tithing. And those that receive can also know that the gift they take was given, not just by the rich to whom such things matter little but also by someone that gave out of their of their all in poverty as well.

I know of no better way to allow the giver and the receiver of tithing to be of “one” heart and mind and to avoid an attitude that one is “better” than the other. If anyone has a better idea to maintain dignity, love, trust and honor with G-d’s covenant children, both the rich and poor; I await the example of a “more excellent way”.

The Traveler

[deseretgov]

I dont know why anyone would want to deny themselves the blessings. Especially if they are financially poor.

[hordak]

Should the poor pay tithing? I find it interesting that some are so disrespectful of the poor to think otherwise. Even the poor have every right to participate in and pay tithing. It is always an honor, privilege and an indication of great love and compassion to offer a true sacrifice to help others.

I personally am grateful that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints encourages and allows all to enjoy and participate in demonstrating gratitude and thanks for what they have – be it an abundance or a pittance. That every member (regardless of their station) can in full conscience be a part of giving and paying tithing. And those that receive can also know that the gift they take was given, not just by the rich to whom such things matter little but also by someone that gave out of their of their all in poverty as well.

I know of no better way to allow the giver and the receiver of tithing to be of “one” heart and mind and to avoid an attitude that one is “better” than the other. If anyone has a better idea to maintain dignity, love, trust and honor with G-d’s covenant children, both the rich and poor; I await the example of a “more excellent way”.

The Traveler

I think tithing is one of the best ways for one to show commitment however a mandatory amount can have its problems.(I know it is not manditory for membership but it is for temple attendance IIRC)

I don't think anyone would say the poor should not be allowed to pay tithing. They would say the poor shouldn't HAVE to pay tithing.

Edited December 2, 2008 by hordak

[pam]

Remember the story of the widow's mite.

[annewandering]

no one HAS to pay tithing. but if you 1. want to do as God has commanded you will. and 2. you want the blessings you will.

[Kyra]

My mom called me just last night to tell me her testimony of tithing. My parents are not well off (far from it actually) and have bills piling up, but still they have kept paying their tithing and have somehow made ends meet. A couple months ago they came home to find $500 cash in an envelope on their front porch, no idea who it was from. A few weeks ago someone brought them $1,000 and they were told that was specifically to be used for their food storage, which my mom has been extremely worried about and trying very hard. In church one day a member of the bishopric shook my dad's hand and left behind $100.

Sunday when my mom was writing out their tithing check, something told her to pay an extra $50. She really struggled with this because my brother and sisters are already getting very little for Christmas, but she did it anyway. A little while later that same bishopric member gave them another $100. They also had a lesson in church that day about the law of consecration and how literally everything we have belongs to the Lord. Last night a couple in their ward brought them a very, very large amount of money. Enough to pay off a bunch of their bills and give my siblings a decent Christmas.

Tithing is something that I really struggle with, but after seeing the blessings my parents have received throughout their lives, but especially recently, I will have an easier time with it. Tithing is for the poor! I'm so grateful that my parents have set that example for me, even if I haven't learned from it like I should. And I'm soooo grateful to the people who are listening to what the spirit tells them and handing over such large amounts of money! I know though, that if my parents hadn't been paying their tithing like they should have, they would not have received such blessings. No one will ever be able to convince me that the poor and impoverished should not have to pay tithing.

[skylercollins]

I thought I'd repost here what I posted in that closed thread:

One of the biggest things that most people who view tithing the way you do miss, is that when members do what the Church asks, the church will take care of them. It's not about hand-outs, but about faith and commitment. As a private organization, it's much harder to milk the church than the government, and because of that, help comes when both parties covenant to do what is necessary. I've sat in the councils of my ward and know that when members are faithful and do their part, the Lord (Church) does his.

(As my Bishops have often said about those who weren't faithful and had children, "I won't let them starve.")

[MarginOfError]

I think sometimes we focus so intently on Tithing that we forget that tied very closely to Tithing is Fast Offering. The discussion of whether or not those in poverty should be paying Tithing is misdirected. They absolutely should pay Tithing. And if for any reason, their paying Tithing prevents them from meeting the other essential financial obligations, they may seek out assistance from the Bishop. The Bishop may offer them assistance through the Fast Offering fund and other Church Welfare Services.

Tithing and Fast Offering are intended to work together, to allow each individual the spiritual blessings given to those who keep their covenants while providing for the temporal needs for which those resources are required. The Lord really knew what he was doing when he put the two concepts together.

[DigitalShadow]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do want to present my feelings on tithing because I think it is a part of why I am an investigator and not a member.

From a non-member point of view, I have mixed feelings about how the church encourages everyone to pay tithing and make it a top priority. I know that it is not about the church making money and that it is a demonstration of faith, but for every "miracle" I've heard about blessings coming to a family that paid their tithing instead of paying their bills, I can't help but wonder how many people went into bankruptcy because they placed tithing as their top priority.

Perhaps it is just my cynical side, but I feel uncomfortable during church or general conference when I hear them go on and on about the importance of paying tithing. Would you feel uncomfortable if you visited a friend who was a loyal follower of the Church of Scientology and you heard them encouraging everyone, even the poor to give money to them?

Obviously, if the church is true, then tithing would be understandable. Unfortunately the skeptic in me is (perhaps erroneously) wary of faith based organizations that practically demand money from their followers for whatever reason. I'm sure members can easily rationalize this by saying that the church is true, end of story, but isn't that the same justification other faiths use to ask for money?

Edited December 2, 2008 by DigitalShadow

[skylercollins]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do want to present my feelings on tithing because I think it is a part of why I am an investigator and not a member.

From a non-member point of view, I have mixed feelings about how the church encourages everyone to pay tithing and make it a top priority. I know that it is not about the church making money and that it is a demonstration of faith, but for every "miracle" I've heard about blessings coming to a family that paid their tithing instead of paying their bills, I can't help but wonder how many people went into bankruptcy because they placed tithing as their top priority.

Perhaps it is just my cynical side, but I feel uncomfortable during church or general conference when I hear them go on and on about the importance of paying tithing. Would you feel uncomfortable if you visited a friend who was a loyal follower of the Church of Scientology and you heard them encouraging everyone, even the poor to give money to them?

Obviously, if the church is true, then tithing would be understandable. Unfortunately the skeptic in me is (perhaps erroneously) wary of faith based organizations that practically demand money from their followers for whatever reason. I'm sure members can easily rationalize this by saying that the church is true, end of story, but isn't that the same justification other faiths use to ask for money?

I doubt that using their money for tithing instead of reducing their debt caused them to go into bankruptcy. A lot of people go into bankruptcy no doubt, especially in Utah, as it seems, but I don't think that if that money was shifted from tithing to debt that it would have prevented the bankruptcy. It would have come anyways. Why was it ever a problem? Because they weren't personally responsible with their finances. Not paying their tithing is not going to fix that. Paying their tithing and using that commitment to become financially responsible will fix their habits and prevent debt problems down the road. That and the Church will help them when they truly need it, so long as they're faithful and pay their tithes as asked.

There's something to changing one's ways (financial, spiritual) for the better when you're financially committed to something, isn't there?

Edited December 2, 2008 by skylercollins

[MarginOfError]

From a non-member point of view, I have mixed feelings about how the church encourages everyone to pay tithing and make it a top priority. I know that it is not about the church making money and that it is a demonstration of faith, but for every "miracle" I've heard about blessings coming to a family that paid their tithing instead of paying their bills, I can't help but wonder how many people went into bankruptcy because they placed tithing as their top priority.

No offense taken DS. It's a good point. I only know of one family that went bankrupt because they chose to pay their tithing. It was my own.

My dad was running his own business for a while and it went under. The debts piled up and my parents were getting into trouble financially. They consulted with a consumer credit counseling service in order to avoid bankruptcy. The counseling service looked over their expenditures and said, "Oh, if you didn't pay all this money to your church, you'd have enough money to pay all your bills and you wouldn't go bankrupt" (I've since been told that it was incorrect for them to say so, and borderline illegal--individuals aren't required to stop making expenditures that are required of their religion). My parents said that wasn't acceptable to them, so the service turned them away and refused to help them. My parents went bankrupt shortly after.

My dad ended up having to take a job that paid less money. It was a government job, that then headed toward privatization. When the government realized that he was actually turning over a profit, they refused to follow the privatization plan. He recently was offered a job elsewhere for a significantly better salary. When starting this job he had very little saved to retirement, but between pensions, current investing, and current salary, he'll have about two-thirds of what he needs saved up in just 10 years.

He did say an interesting thing to me about tithing once. It was a couple years before he got his new job, and he had just written a tithing check. He said, "When I first joined the Church [some 25 years earlier] my bishop told me that if I paid my tithing I would be greatly blessed. The tithing check I just wrote was for the same amount as my annual salary the year I joined the Church."

Yes, paying tithing might drive a person into bankruptcy. But from having watched my parents, I've learned that bankruptcy is a small price to pay for the blessings of a Full Tithe.

[Elgama]

Perhaps it is just my cynical side, but I feel uncomfortable during church or general conference when I hear them go on and on about the importance of paying tithing. Would you feel uncomfortable if you visited a friend who was a loyal follower of the Church of Scientology and you heard them encouraging everyone, even the poor to give money to them?

Actually no - if they were encouraging more than a percentage then I would be concerned, we have a set 10% that is is basically our decision to pay or not.

However from my point of view its not my money in the first place, I have been given my opportunities from God and as a Latter Day Saint I have had a fantastic return on my investment.

Tithing is something I personally have a huge testimoney - I am not poor but by UK standards I have been very poor (so not that poor in world standards), I know when I work out my finances without my tithing it adds up differently to when I put my tithing at the top of the accounts. And now we are better what is my tithing but something I would probably waste money on anyway.

-Charley

[DigitalShadow]

I doubt that using their money for tithing instead of reducing their debt caused them to go into bankruptcy. A lot of people go into bankruptcy no doubt, especially in Utah, as it seems, but I don't think that if that money was shifted from tithing to debt that it would have prevented the bankruptcy. It would have come anyways. Why was it ever a problem? Because they weren't personally responsible with their finances. Not paying their tithing is not going to fix that. Paying their tithing and using that commitment to become financially responsible will fix their habits and prevent debt problems down the road. That and the Church will help them when they truly need it, so long as they're faithful and pay their tithes as asked.

There's something to changing one's bad ways (financial, spiritual) for the better when you're financially committed to something, isn't there?

When I said bills, I was mostly referring to things like rent/mortgage, utilities, food, and other cost of living things. Some people are financially responsible, but still have trouble paying monthly bills.

Edit: I guess it would have been better phrased as become homeless, because I think bankruptcy has more to do with debt.

Edited December 2, 2008 by DigitalShadow

[hordak]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do want to present my feelings on tithing because I think it is a part of why I am an investigator and not a member.

From a non-member point of view, I have mixed feelings about how the church encourages everyone to pay tithing and make it a top priority. I know that it is not about the church making money and that it is a demonstration of faith, but for every "miracle" I've heard about blessings coming to a family that paid their tithing instead of paying their bills, I can't help but wonder how many people went into bankruptcy because they placed tithing as their top priority.

My father always paid his tithing.In exchange for paying it we got help from the church food truck for a few months.It wasn't very good and wouldn't amount to the money he spent in tithing over the years.Later on my mother started dying from complications from diabetes.First she started to go blind.After she almost burned down the house trying to cook herself some food he quite his day job to stay home with her.Her kidneys failed and she was required to get dialysis 2 times a week. The bills piled up and he stopped paying tithing for a few months so he could keep my mother alive. Keeping his car from getting repossessed to get her to and from the hospital and paying the insurance company to continue her life sustaining treatments and medicines took priority.

While this was going on my wife took the talks from the missionaries and decided to get baptized.She was eager to have my father do it but since my father choose to keep his wife alive instead of paying tithe he was deemed "unworthy " to do it. This is my testimony of tithing.

On a side note the church never claims the blessings of paying tithing is a financial return.

[Truegrits]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do want to present my feelings on tithing because I think it is a part of why I am an investigator and not a member.

Tithing is not a concept thought up by LDS....it is of God.

It is something that has been asked of all who believe. It is all through the Scriptures.

There are principles behind tithing that have nothing to do with the money itself. Tithing teaches us obedience. When God asks us for something, we should be willing to give it freely and gladly. It teaches us trust.

We can only demonstrate our faith with our actions. When we act out of belief that God is true to His Word, our faith is evident. James says “… be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22)

It is faithful behavior that evidences the Spirit within us. It is faithful behavior that allows God to bless us. “Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this," says the Lord of hosts, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.“

(Malachi 3:10 NKJV)

[pam]

On a side note the church never claims the blessings of paying tithing is a financial return.

That is very true. However, what if the blessing of paying a full tithe had been the impovement in health of your mother without the high cost of the medical expenses? I guess we shall never know.

[Guest Alana]

All the monetary blessings that I have received from tithing can all be written off as happen stance. For example, when there really wasn't enough money to go around, and yet there was still money in my wallet, I probably just calculated my totals wrong. It was just coincidence that the only time our books sold on Half.com was when we had absolutely no money at all (ok, we might have had $2 in change, but that was it.) Or, you could argue, why did our business go belly up if we were paying tithing in the first place? Never mind that we replaced it with an even better business and are making way more money.

The reason I know that those specific blessings (and many that were not monetary) are from paying our tithing is because of a still small whispering in my heart and mind. It is the same thing that tells me the Book of Mormon is true. There is no proof. It's all faith based and what I believe is the Spirit revealing truths to me that I could no other way know for sure. I've come to find out that when something is communicated Spirit to spirit, I KNOW it for certain, more than I can ever know something learned with my mind only (math, science, and other obvious things.)

Heavenly Father has blessed me for paying my tithing.

[countrygirl66]

From my experience the blessings of tithing are not only for the LDS church. Any member of any church that honestly gives 1/10th of their increase to their church or even a charity is blessed abundantly. It may not be a financial thing. When we were working to get permanent legal guardianship of my now 12 yr old daughter we had very little legally to stand on. We were being threatened constantly about what would happen to us or that she would be kidnapped. One person invloved actually offered to by the birth mom a new car if she didn't sign the papers. We used every resource of money we had. We paid our tithing just before the final court hearing. I can still remember that I had 2 pennies in my pocket. (that was our net worth at the moment) I remember thinking ok we can do this. We got to court and noone was there but us, our daughter, and the judge. I will for the rest of my life have to deal with her relatives and their threats against me and my family. We are still paying off the debt created from that. We still pay tithing. The blessing for us was that when noone else in the world could have helped us the Lord intervened on our behalf and hers and helped us to get the court work we needed done. I hope someday we can adopt her (she asks all the time) but I know it will happen in the lords time not ours. We are not wealthy, but we are fine. Tithing is a blessing that the lord wants to give to us but we have to want to recieve it. Think of when you have given to your church or a charity that you love, have you ever really missed the money? Or did the feelings you had outweigh any sacrifice of the money. To me that is tithing.

[applepansy]

I know I haved received blessings from paying tithing. They happen every day. I NEED those blessings so I pay my tithing FIRST.

Back during the recession in the 1980s. Ajdustable Rate Mortgages went ski high. Our interest rate on $50,000 went up to 13.8%. We were in foreclosure. Because we insisted on paying our tithing we were blessed in many ways and avoided foreclosure. That is a monetary blessing.

There have been other blessings in my life that were a result of tithing and had nothing to do with money. Too many to even begin to list.

I believe that part of receiving blessings is the willingness to let the people around us be the "hand of the Lord" in blessing us. When someone offers help and we say "no we're fine" aren't we saying no to a blessing from the Lord? (This is something I struggle with. I have a hard time letting other people help me.)

What it all revolves around is Faith.

applepansy

[pam]

When someone offers help and we say "no we're fine" aren't we saying no to a blessing from the Lord? (This is something I struggle with. I have a hard time letting other people help me.)

That is something I struggle with as well. But I'm getting better.

[skylercollins]

When I said bills, I was mostly referring to things like rent/mortgage, utilities, food, and other cost of living things. Some people are financially responsible, but still have trouble paying monthly bills.

Edit: I guess it would have been better phrased as become homeless, because I think bankruptcy has more to do with debt.

It comes back to the same things. A lot of bills these days are unnecessary, such as internet, cable, cell-phone etc. And if you show a commitment to the Church, then the Church will help when you need it. But you have to do your part, which means activity, callings, and tithing.

[hordak]

That is very true. However, what if the blessing of paying a full tithe had been the impovement in health of your mother without the high cost of the medical expenses? I guess we shall never know.

So God took my mother at the age of 50 away from my father and 6 grand kids to teach my father to pay his tithing?

[MarginOfError]

It comes back to the same things. A lot of bills these days are unnecessary, such as internet, cable, cell-phone etc. And if you show a commitment to the Church, then the Church will help when you need it. But you have to do your part, which means activity, callings, and tithing.

The way you phrase that makes it sound like activity, callings, and tithing are required to receive welfare assistance from the Church. I just want to clarify that this isn't true. In fact, you don't even have to be a member or the Church to receive assistance from it's welfare services.

[pam]

When I was receiving assistance from the Church in the way of food etc...the ONLY thing the Bishop asked of me was to donate some time down at the Church Food Bank. It was the least I could do for the assistance that was provided to me.

[pam]

So God took my mother at the age of 50 away from my father and 6 grand kids to teach my father to pay his tithing?

I'm sorry about your mother. But you are twisting my words. That is not what I meant nor what I said at all.

Edited December 3, 2008 by pam