Figure this one out...

[kona0197]

So people here believe as it is written that you must be baptized to enter Heaven. Well when Jesus was crucified he told one of the thiefs that they would be together in paradise. I'm pretty sure that thief was not baptized.

Figure that one out...

(This is NOT an attempt to question LDS teachings. I am merely curious about this situation.)

Edited December 3, 2008 by kona0197

[Oligith1]

So people here believe as it is written that you must be baptized to enter Heaven. Well when Jesus was crucified he told one of the thiefs that they would be together in paradise. I'm pretty sure that thief was not baptized.

Figure that one out...

Simple answer. We do not believe that you must be baptized to enter "Heaven." We believe that you must be baptized to enter the Celestial Kingdom. The "paradise" - what people might term "Heaven" - Jesus was referring to on the cross was definately not the Celestial Kingdom due to the fact that one must be resurrected to enter the Celestial Kingdom (or any kingdom of glory for that matter) and none had been yet resurrected until after Christ himself was resurrected three days after his death.

In the end though, it's just another question of definitions and people's differences in understanding what the definitions mean.

[BenRaines]

Paradise is that place where the spirits of the dead go to await the resurrection. No conflict there but good try.

We also read the scripture that says "Unless a man be born of the water and of the spirit he shall not enter in to the kingdom of God."

Any ideas about that Kona?

Ben Raines

[Guest SisterofJared]

Paradise isn't heaven. Paradise is a temporary place of rest where those who have been good people will wait for the resurrection and judgement day. The thief had exercised faith in Christ by his words to him, "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom." Because of that faith, he was able to go to the paradise world and await resurrection.

[MarginOfError]

Try checking out these two threads. I'm not sure we really have a consistent opinion on the boards. One of those things that isn't well-defined in the literature I guess.

Baptism for Paradise?

Ordinances necessary for Spirit Paradise

[Guest ceeboo]

So people here believe as it is written that you must be baptized to enter Heaven. Well when Jesus was crucified he told one of the thiefs that they would be together in paradise. I'm pretty sure that thief was not baptized.

Figure that one out...

(This is NOT an attempt to question LDS teachings. I am merely curious about this situation.)

Hi Kona,

A Catholic shot at figuring that one out !!!!

If JESUS THE CHRIST told ANYBODY ANYTHING it WILL BE!!!! ( He is the BOSS )

He is, has been, and always will be in charge so if Jesus wants any of us with me ( regardless of LDS, Catholic, Atheist, Muslim, or any other teachings) IMHO, my friend, we will be with him. ( I hope and pray we are all given the grace and GIFT that he has for us to be with him for all enternity :))

God bless,

Ceeboo

[Hemidakota]

So people here believe as it is written that you must be baptized to enter Heaven. Well when Jesus was crucified he told one of the thiefs that they would be together in paradise. I'm pretty sure that thief was not baptized.

Figure that one out...

(This is NOT an attempt to question LDS teachings. I am merely curious about this situation.)

To simplified this, first, only the Celestial Kingdom requires a person to be baptized. Second, paradise does not require a person to be baptized. A vast difference on where you are at when you cross the veil.

[TeancumsSword]

So people here believe as it is written that you must be baptized to enter Heaven. Well when Jesus was crucified he told one of the thiefs that they would be together in paradise. I'm pretty sure that thief was not baptized.

Figure that one out...

(This is NOT an attempt to question LDS teachings. I am merely curious about this situation.)

He didn't have the chance to be baptized since he became I believer while dying on the cross next to Jesus. Those not under the law are not condemned a law the never had, the Book of Mormon is clear on that.

[john doe]

How do you know he hadn't been baptized? John the Baptist had been baptising people before Jesus came along. I get from that that baptism held some sort of status in Jewish tradition at the time.

[Hemidakota]

Great point....it was culture ingrained to be part of a belief.

[Wingnut]

Try reading it differently and it changes the whole meaning. Instead of this:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,

To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

Try this:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day

shalt thou be with me in paradise

[rameumptom]

Jesus did not tell the thief he would be with him in heaven, but in "Paradise." In 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Paul explains that there are multiple heavens and a separate paradise.

In the Gospel of Nicodemus, an early Christian text, we find that this paradise or Spirit World is a place where people await the resurrection and heaven. Even Adam had to await the resurrection there, prior to going to heaven.

Baptism IS required for entering into the Celestial Kingdom. John 3 tells us it is necessary. Paul explains how the dead can receive it in 1 Corinthians 15:29 - through baptism for the dead. Without it, a person remains in the paradise/spirit world until it is received vicariously.

[kona0197]

How do you know he hadn't been baptized? John the Baptist had been baptising people before Jesus came along. I get from that that baptism held some sort of status in Jewish tradition at the time.

Because if he was baptized he would not have committed a crime.

I do not believe in 3 heavens so I still do not have a good explanation. I don't believe in baptism for the dead either. And yes I do not think there is a spiritual world as the Mormons explain it.

The mistakes you make here are final. If you do not accept the gospel in this life there are no second chances.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Because if he was baptized he would not have committed a crime.

I do not believe in 3 heavens so I still do not have a good explanation. I don't believe in baptism for the dead either. And yes I do not think there is a spiritual world as the Mormons explain it.

The mistakes you make here are final. If you do not accept the gospel in this life there are no second chances.

You apparently missed my explanation...

The Book of Mormon teaches that those who are without the Law (too young, mentally handicapped, never heard it) are not accountable to the Law. The thief accepted Christ as he was dying on his own cross, he accepted what he knew at THAT moment and was faithful to the Law he had, thus he was worthy to enter Paradise, and will obtain a resurrection of salvation.

WelcomeHome

[kona0197]

Thanks but I was looking for a Bible explanation.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Thanks but I was looking for a Bible explanation.

It's the same explanation.

Edited December 4, 2008 by KristofferUmfrey

[Dr T]

The JW's have the translation with the coma after the "today," I think (in the New World Translation). Interesting that the gramatical consistency of all the other places they do it correctly but not in that verse.

[jolee65]

Because if he was baptized he would not have committed a crime.

I do not believe in 3 heavens so I still do not have a good explanation. I don't believe in baptism for the dead either. And yes I do not think there is a spiritual world as the Mormons explain it.

The mistakes you make here are final. If you do not accept the gospel in this life there are no second chances.

Because if he was baptized he would not have commited a crime, since when did that stop people from doing the wrong thing, because Ive been baptised I wouldnt or cant commit a crime.

And the three degrees of glory I do believe and im glad. If I go through life following the laws why should I have to live with someone that hasnt but went through life never caring about God and Jesus Christ, family, people or there community.

[Elgama]

Thanks but I was looking for a Bible explanation.

So why ask Latter Day Saints the question? Surely you know by now we do not rely solely on the Bible for answers to spiritual questions.

All the answers have shown that for Latter Day Saints there is no problem or conflict between the scripture you raised and our theology. I don't see why we need to prove it with only half our scripture.

Although we do not know the man committed a crime or why, we have plenty of miscarriages of justice today and I am sure there were many more in New Testament times - maybe he stole food to feed his family etc and that is in no way proof he had not been baptised,

-Charley

[MarginOfError]

It is unlikely that the man was a simple thief. Crucifixion is a pretty hefty penalty for stealing a loaf of bread. His crimes were likely either of a capital nature (think Barrabas) or against the Roman State (treason). Either way, the Romans, particularly Pilate, thought that the crimes were pretty serious or he wouldn't have ordered a Crucifixion.

It is also highly plausible that the crimes of the two thieves were political, in which case the two probably had a good knowledge of the man well before meeting him at Calvary. One thief mocked Christ's divinity, the other one recognized and respected it. It appears to be as much about attitude as it does about ordinances and technicalities.

[Hemidakota]

In the Gospel of Nicodemus, an early Christian text, we find that this paradise or Spirit World is a place where people await the resurrection and heaven. Even Adam had to await the resurrection there, prior to going to heaven.

That was one L O N G WA I T for Michael....

[Hemidakota]

The mistakes you make here are final. If you do not accept the gospel in this life there are no second chances.

If I was born into a Amazon tribe, then there was no chance for me ever to accept the gospel.

[Truegrits]

kona:

Because if he was baptized he would not have committed a crime.

Of course there are those that sin after Baptism...Baptism does not make us perfect human beings.

[john doe]

Because if he was baptized he would not have committed a crime.

That's just plain silly. Who told you that?

[john doe]

I do not believe in 3 heavens so I still do not have a good explanation. I don't believe in baptism for the dead either. And yes I do not think there is a spiritual world as the Mormons explain it.

The mistakes you make here are final. If you do not accept the gospel in this life there are no second chances.

Hmmm, I thought you said earlier that the only thing stopping you from joining the church was the government. Sounds to me like you don't believe any of the stuff we teach.