Christ-like?

[Aesa]

How do Mormons reconcile their beliefs as Christ-like, and even the most Christ-like above all other Christian "creeds" when we have behaviour like this?

"As Joseph neared the end of his speech, all of his anger erupted from his mouth. 'If the people will let us alone, we will preach the [Mormon] gospel in peace. But if they come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Muhammad, whose motto in treating for peace was the Alcoran [The Qur'an] or the sword. So shall it eventually be with us - Joseph Smith or the Sword!'" -Alcoran or the Sword

Thomas B. Marsh and Orson Hyde affidavit: Thomas B. Marsh and Orson Hyde Affidavits

History of the Mormons: Or, Latter ... - Google Book Search

[MarginOfError]

Quite simple...even Christ had a temper at times. Judicious use of anger and force is Christ-like.

[Outshined]

Remarkable how people will look past so much good in order to find some item of negativity they can dwell upon. Read first through the Standard Works and General Conference addresses for a feel of our beliefs.

[Aesa]

I have read through the standard works, thankyou. Well at least the BoM anyway.

Christ's rage was loving, not hateful or destructive.

[MarginOfError]

I have read through the standard works, thankyou. Well at least the BoM anyway.

Christ's rage was loving, not hateful or destructive.

May not have been hateful, but try telling the merchants in the temple it wasn't destructive. The question that remains was the rage displayed in your quote hateful? It is pretty clear that Smith would have preferred peace. This statement is more like saying, "if you declare war on us, we'll fight back, we'll win, and we'll win in a fashion that will ensure you never declare war on us again."

Furthermore, the objectivity of this affidavit can be questioned, as it was given in the midst of Thomas B Marsh apostacizing. The quote Marsh made about the next Mohammed comes with no context, nor is there any indication of when it was made. There is nothing to substantiate the account, so far as I am aware. By the time Marsh gave this affidavit, he had been increasingly displeased with the Church since April of that same year. Ill feelings had been brewing for six months already. When I get home I can pull out the History of the Church and see if there was any official comment on the affidavit.

[Palerider]

One quote and we are doomed.......

[Guest ceeboo]

One quote and we are doomed.......

Hey ya Pale,

I wonder if you could find a " quote " or " bit of history " that would make the Catholics look not so good :lol:

Yes indeed, perspective and faith guides us !!!:):)

[Justice]

God made many angry and vengeful comments in the Old Testament. He told the Israelites to "utterly destroy" all living things in the promised land when they arrived.

You have to undetrstand that the Saints had been brutally kicked from land and home many times. A person begins to take a stand and not allow such things.

Very interesting that a person can overlook everything else, even having read the Book of Mormon as you claim, and find it all false because a group of people were weary of having their lands and possessions stolen out from under them while the government did little to nothing in their defense.

I expect people to defend their homes, if necessary and possible.

I expect you do too, and I suspect you would given the chance. If you lost some of your own children and friends to mobs and brutality, you would take a stand.

[skylercollins]

How do Mormons reconcile their beliefs as Christ-like, and even the most Christ-like above all other Christian "creeds" when we have behaviour like this?

As Margin pointed out, his message was one of self defense. Also, Joseph Smith is a person like you or I and never claimed to be perfect, or perfectly Christ-like. Since I'm sure the quote has either been given or taken out of context, it would be wise to reserve judgement until you've examined his entire life, factually.

[Hemidakota]

Even Christ lost His 'cool' on the temple grounds....now what was your point Aesa? As other stated, I won't bother to recount the many times both the FATHER and His Son anger was against those in both the OT and the NT...

[rameumptom]

Jesus stated that he came with a sword. He was the one who commanded Moses and Joshua to absolutely destroy the cities before them that would not surrender to Israel's banner.

This same Christ flooded the earth and destroyed all the wicked of Noah's day. He destroyed Israel and Judea for rejecting Him. And he had the Romans destroy Jerusalem after his crucifixion.

Through his apostle John, we find that Jesus will destroy most of the inhabitants of the earth in the last days, as well. Just look at all the destroying angels, plagues, disasters, and wars prophecied in the Book of Revelation! Then, those not found in the Book of Life will be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone.

Seems like Joseph is in good company. Christ offered peace and blessings for those who accepted Him and his gospel. He also offered destruction for the wicked. Christ worked this way anciently through his prophets and apostles, and he continues to give such warnings through his modern prophets.

But Joseph also taught how we can escape the destructions promised to the wicked by our Savior. He said that if we keep the commandments and follow Christ, we will be blessed in our lands. This teaching is throughout the Book of Mormon and D&C. And it fits perfectly with Christ's call to repentance - either we repent and follow Christ and His servants, or we are destroyed.

[Wingnut]

I wonder if you could find a " quote " or " bit of history " that would make the Catholics look not so good :lol:

No way...is that possible?

(Not intending to rip on Catholics, just to point out, as I believe Ceeboo also was doing, that all religions have a dark spot here or there.)

[rameumptom]

Hey ya Pale,

I wonder if you could find a " quote " or " bit of history " that would make the Catholics look not so good :lol:

Yes indeed, perspective and faith guides us !!!:):)

I can find much on most religions.

Catholics at one time had 3 concurrent popes who excommunicated each other. Of course, we could also discuss the Inquisition and Indulgences....

Protestants had John Calvin burning people at the stake; witches being burned at the stake; and supported Henry VIII in his "divorces". Protestant ministers led the way of those who murdered Joseph Smith, and in implementing the "extermination order" against the Mormons in Missouri.

Given such histories, I don't think a few quotes from Joseph Smith seem quite so bad.

I don't judge churches from their past histories, as I know they are all run by imperfect humans. What makes a good or bad church, is what are the doctrines they teach and implement?

[Aesa]

Hey ya Pale,

I wonder if you could find a " quote " or " bit of history " that would make the Catholics look not so good :lol:

Yes indeed, perspective and faith guides us !!!:):)

Well if you want to get into that discussion too, I could go on forever.

Really (and I know this is kind of Off-topic) if you want to compare Islamic "extremism" and the Catholic church... well, the catholics have killed millions and millions more.

I don't judge churches from their past histories, as I know they are all run by imperfect humans. What makes a good or bad church, is what are the doctrines they teach and implement?

I wasn't trying to judge with the quote, more trying to get a perspective. Anyway, I couldn't agree more with you along the lines of if a church is an institution, it's run by imperfect people. This is why, in my opinion, Christ never said His church should be an institution.

Institutions become "same-old-same-old" and people just attend because they're a member (the majority anyway), this brings to mind children saying on verbatim "I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith is a prophet, etc,..." ... and they don't even understand what they're saying.

In regards to what makes a "good church," well first of all none of our works (creating a church, being one of them) is good in the eyes of God. The Bible says that all of our works are as filthy rags before God. This is why Bible believing Christians will probably at one time or another say "God is not in the institution of Church..." You are complete in Christ and Christ only, when you become part of the body of Christ through salvation you are saved.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Aesa

[Misshalfway]

I don't know Aesa, but you might feel that way too if the homes of your friends and family had been burned and your people chased from place to place in fear of their lives by the very government whose freedoms were suppose to protect you.

There is a point where God's people are justified to stop turning the other cheek.

[Aesa]

When has Christ stop turning His cheek?

[Misshalfway]

When has Christ stop turning His cheek?

I really think this has already been answered in earlier posts. Again, perhaps a review of the Old Testament might give some insights.

I don't think the Lord expects that we don't defend ourselves. For those who choose to turn the other cheek, such will be turned for righteousness. But Jesus doesn't justify those who have the obligation to defend and protect and who don't take up the sword to do so. There are times when the preservation of family and country is justified....even by the sword. And if someone broke into your home and raped your child, would you sit there and speak love and touch fingers and hum with your invader? I mean come on. There is common sense in Christ's gospel. Not every horrible invasion or abuse should be tolerated. There is something called standing up for the right. Even when it sometimes means using force.

[Elgama]

when did God say a prophet or patriach had to be perfect? - Anger is not always a bad emotion

Abraham - let a wife and son go out into the desert with no servants or support

Jacob - showed so much favouritism with his kids that 10 almost murdered 1.

Moses - killed a man, and took an honour upon himself that was not his to have

Aaron - made a golden calf for people to worship

Noah - got drunk and wandered round naked

Jonah - questioned God time and again, not mention the incident with the Gourd

The disciples could not stay awake for 1 hour

Peter - denied Christ 3 times

Timothy - doubted the resurrection

Elijah - BBQ'd about 300 people

Paul - before he repented assisted in killing Christians

There are loads more just the ones came of the top of my head

All this and we only have a small portion of these prophets lives if we had the volumme of writings on them that we do have on Joseph Smith wonder if they would have had more incidents.

-Charley

Edited December 3, 2008 by Elgama

[Aesa]

Friend, if you're going to make Peter a prophet ... then that makes all of the true body of Christ prophets.

I wouldn't necesarily disagree with that either, because we're kind of prophesying when we speak of His second coming.

[Elgama]

Friend, if you're going to make Peter a prophet ... then that makes all of the true body of Christ prophets.

I wouldn't necesarily disagree with that either, because we're kind of prophesying when we speak of His second coming.

If you are a Latter Day Saint he is was as much a prophet as Joseph Smith or President Monson,

So in the context of your question it is entirely relevant to use Peter. Timothy and Paul

-Charley

[Aesa]

Well then that makes us all prophets.

Christ didn't elevate the first 12 over any others, as far as I understand it.

It was only that God appointed them as leaders, yeah?

[Elgama]

Well then that makes us all prophets.

Christ didn't elevate the first 12 over any others, as far as I understand it.

It was only that God appointed them as leaders, yeah?

Not if you use the full standard works (which you did say you had read), Peter was President of the Church (same position Joseph Smith held - which makes his actions comparable)- made him a prophet, seer and revelator, likewise other apostles. I am not a Christian have no desire to be so am not restricted to the bible as my only source of revelation on the matter.

Everybody is entitled to revelation for themselves and their calling.

-Charley

[Misshalfway]

In the LDS understanding, the 12 are special witnesses of Christ. They are "set appart" from the world and elevated ( if you want to use that word) to lead the church after he left the earth. They are given important revelation and in this case personal witness of Jesus and his divinity and the truth of his gospel. How else could they testify to the world that Jesus was risen?

For LDS people, the twelve are essential to the original organization of Jesus Christ's church. We have them today as part of our leadership. We believe that without their special preisthood authority and priesthood "keys" they would be just as everyone else. But they have a special mission and power to perform that mission. For the rest of us, it is up to us to follow them and we can receive our own witness of the truth -- even a personal visit from the Savior if one is worthy of such a sacred experience.

[Aesa]

Peter was President of the Church (same position Joseph Smith held - which makes his actions comparable)- made him a prophet, seer and revelator, likewise other apostles. I am not a Christian have no desire to be so am not restricted to the bible as my only source of revelation on the matter.

Where is the scripture to say Peter was the president? I can understand the interpretation of that part of scripture in that sense, but could you be more clear by quoting?

I actually don't know any Christians (we're talking born again/saved) who take the Bible as the only authority. We believe in personal revelation from God too.

[Elgama]

Where is the scripture to say Peter was the president? I can understand the interpretation of that part of scripture in that sense, but could you be more clear by quoting?

I personally never quote scripture on a debate thread, it is sacred to me and I personally view it as casting my pearls - however the Doctrine and Covenants Section you require is the one where Peter passes on the keys to Joseph Smith - he could do that because he had been the President of the Church and held them.

I actually don't know any Christians (we're talking born again/saved) who take the Bible as the only authority. We believe in personal revelation from God too.

I know a lot who do elevate the Bible above God. When your a Latter Day Saint you get to see that side of people a lot more than you do as a standard Christian.

_Charley