One God, what does this mean?

[Mudcat]

Hi I'm Mudcat,

This is my first post on this forum and I wanted to preface it and me.

I am a non-LDS Christian. I have participated on some other forums related to LDS apologetics and criticisms under the same moniker I have here.

Several years back I read through the Standard Works and did not receive a testimony of them, hopefully this thread won't get derailed on that specific topic, just thought you should know.

I have made a decision to read through them again and hopefully this place will be a welcome forum for answers from LDS, when I have questions.

That being said, in the Testimony of the Three Witnesses at the close there is this statement.

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God.

Superficially this statement could be seen as falling into perfect accordance with my current Trinitarian thought. However I realize that LDS view the Godhead in a different manner, than that.

So bearing that in mind, what does it mean to be one God in the sense of the what the 3 witnesses were saying?

Hopefully, I articulated that well enough, if not please let me know and I will try to clarify my thoughts. Also, I hope you folks don't mind me popping in with questions along these lines from time to time.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[BenRaines]

Mudcat,

I might suggest you use the search feature and check any of the many threads at lds.net that have covered this topic multiple times.

Welcome to lds.net and I hope you find your time here a pleasant experience.

Ben Raines

[Mudcat]

Ben,

I actually found a reply that addressed it under Trinity/LDS Godhead comparison/contrast thread.

Seems in the sense, 'One God' refers to oneness of purpose and power. It's a difficult concept for me to grasp, but I get the general idea. I think.

Thanks,

Mudcat

[Elgama]

Ben,

I actually found a reply that addressed it under Trinity/LDS Godhead comparison/contrast thread.

Seems in the sense, 'One God' refers to oneness of purpose and power. It's a difficult concept for me to grasp, but I get the general idea. I think.

Thanks,

Mudcat

Ever watch Deep Space Nine? this is only my way of trying to understand it (I don't think its possible to ever truly understand the workings of God whilst in mortality) I always imagined it like Odo, the shapeshifter and his people. They were all individuals and could take on their own form, but they could also join up with the brain of the rest of the people and function and think as one. But Odo was capable of not sharing their views.

Not sure if that makes sense lol But when I was watching it was one of those lightbulb

-Charley

[prisonchaplain]

This may be more than you are looking for, but could prove for interesting reading if you want a historic overview on the topic. The Development of the Mormon Understanding of God: Early Mormon Modalism and Other Myths - Ari D. Bruening, and David L. Paulsen - FARMS Review - Volume 13 - Issue 2

Some have promoted henotheism here--that only one God is worshipped, but that many gods exist. The main sticking point as far as the Trinity goes is the disbelief in the Godhead's ESSENTIAL (ontological, if you like theological words) oneness.

[ztodd]

I interpret it to mean one godhead. The godhead is of one purpose. They have no differing views, no differing purposes (although each has a unique function in achieving their purpose), no secrets from each other, no conflicts, no disputations.

[bert10]

The ONE GOD thing...was explained by Jesus to the Jews as well as to the world. To know [understand] this truth is ETERNAL LIFE.

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE [The Father] The ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, Whom THOU [The Father] hast sent.

The Title ONLY TRUE GOD (for all of us) belongs to the Father. God should be understand to mean as GOOD and Jesus is also God..or Good. The difference is that as Jesus said...the FATHER was greater than He.

If you notice here and in the scriptures...nowhere does Jesus say to pray or honor the Holy Ghost formarly. In the prayer He taught to men...He taught men to pray to the Father who art in Heaven.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Hi I'm Mudcat,

This is my first post on this forum and I wanted to preface it and me.

I am a non-LDS Christian. I have participated on some other forums related to LDS apologetics and criticisms under the same moniker I have here.

Several years back I read through the Standard Works and did not receive a testimony of them, hopefully this thread won't get derailed on that specific topic, just thought you should know.

I have made a decision to read through them again and hopefully this place will be a welcome forum for answers from LDS, when I have questions.

That being said, in the Testimony of the Three Witnesses at the close there is this statement.

Superficially this statement could be seen as falling into perfect accordance with my current Trinitarian thought. However I realize that LDS view the Godhead in a different manner, than that.

So bearing that in mind, what does it mean to be one God in the sense of the what the 3 witnesses were saying?

Hopefully, I articulated that well enough, if not please let me know and I will try to clarify my thoughts. Also, I hope you folks don't mind me popping in with questions along these lines from time to time.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Aesa]

In the prayer He taught to men...He taught men to pray to the Father who art in Heaven.

In Jesus name. :)

[Joseph]

Personally I doubt if the Three Witnesses even understand the distinct nature of the Godhead at that time; unless I'm mistaken, David Whitmer pretty much remained a Trinitarian his life.

[austro-libertarian]

I think this talk and the scriptural references in it are excellent. It is from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, a living Apostle of the LDS church.

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

Here is an excerpt:

We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

Edited December 7, 2008 by austro-libertarian

[Mudcat]

Ever watch Deep Space Nine? this is only my way of trying to understand it (I don't think its possible to ever truly understand the workings of God whilst in mortality) I always imagined it like Odo, the shapeshifter and his people. They were all individuals and could take on their own form, but they could also join up with the brain of the rest of the people and function and think as one. But Odo was capable of not sharing their views.

Not sure if that makes sense lol But when I was watching it was one of those lightbulb

-Charley

Hi Charley,

I never was a Deep Space Nine fan, ... So the analogy was probably lost in its fullest depth, but I believe I get the general picture.

I suppose, in my own present belief, the aspect of 'One God' is difficult to grasp as well. Seems an easy thing to process 3 distinct individuals, its the other part that is really challenging.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Mudcat

[Elgama]

I think it always will be challenging as we are not immortal and cannot imagine it. Although when you are married or close to someone you do often have the same thoughts or understand things that would be incomprehensible to somebody outside of the marriage.

-Charley

[Mudcat]

This may be more than you are looking for, but could prove for interesting reading if you want a historic overview on the topic. The Development of the Mormon Understanding of God: Early Mormon Modalism and Other Myths - Ari D. Bruening, and David L. Paulsen - FARMS Review - Volume 13 - Issue 2

Some have promoted henotheism here--that only one God is worshipped, but that many gods exist. The main sticking point as far as the Trinity goes is the disbelief in the Godhead's ESSENTIAL (ontological, if you like theological words) oneness.

Hi PC,

Thanks for the link. It was interesting apologetics piece. I suppose I have understood it I wouldn't have placed LDS in the modalistic category at any point. Based on the article, it seems approached as though Widmer's stance is more assertive than contextual.

However, it is quite possible to draw the conclusion that early LDS moved out of a Trinitarian school of thought towards the LDS Godhead.

Emphasis mine on your last statement. Though I don't think it is doctrinally supported, at least as far as I know, if there are LDS henotheists there beliefs are an extrapolation.

I will say, that I am probably not the best example of a die-hard Trinitarian. I have always believe the relation and affiliation between Father, Son and Holy Ghost was looser than what has been promulgated since Nicaea 325. I suppose my beliefs should be considered neither here nor there. I don't intend to use this forum as a personal soapbox for what I think and am much more interested in what LDS believe, at present.

Again, thanks for the link,

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

I interpret it to mean one godhead. The godhead is of one purpose. They have no differing views, no differing purposes (although each has a unique function in achieving their purpose), no secrets from each other, no conflicts, no disputations.

Hi Z,

Thanks for the response. If you wouldn't mind me asking you something else, something I have always had a little personal struggle about, was when Christ prayed to let the cup pass from him in Gethsemane. Seems in a way that wills were in conflict.

Do you have any thoughts on the matter, as it relates to this concept of 'Oneness'?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[BenRaines]

Mudcat, hope you don't mind my jumping in on that one too. I don't see it as Christ complaining about the task before him. While he was the Son of God he also had a human element. After all the torture and suffering here a little of the human side comes out. "Father, if possible, let this pass from me" The ultimate price of atonement was necessary. I think the following words "but not my will but thine be done". Individual but one.

I would have more of an issue with a single God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost being one person and having him talk to himself asking that if possible to have it pass from him, in essence talking to himself.

Ben Raines

[Elgama]

Hi Z,

Thanks for the response. If you wouldn't mind me asking you something else, something I have always had a little personal struggle about, was when Christ prayed to let the cup pass from him in Gethsemane. Seems in a way that wills were in conflict.

Do you have any thoughts on the matter, as it relates to this concept of 'Oneness'?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Yes, we have these conflicts within ourselves all the time, there have been things in my life I have not wanted to do, but known I have to, I would have done anything to have the cup pass from me. You don't have to be two people to have the conflict the Saviour had in Gethsemane, but they are.

I have a painful illness and of course I want it taken from me, BUT I also recognise that Heavenly Father has blessed me with it to help me grow and without it I would be very different, and maybe not reach my full potential. So whilst I understand why I have my illness and of course I want the cup to pass from me, if it is what is needed then I want it to be my Heavenly Father's will because he understands my beginning and end in mortality I don't

-Charley

[Mudcat]

Mudcat, hope you don't mind my jumping in on that one too.

Not at all Ben.

I don't see it as Christ complaining about the task before him. While he was the Son of God he also had a human element. After all the torture and suffering here a little of the human side comes out. "Father, if possible, let this pass from me" The ultimate price of atonement was necessary. I think the following words "but not my will but thine be done". Individual but one.

Emphasis mine, at present I draw the same conclusion. Humanity vs. Divinity would be a poor way of agreeing with you but what exactly went on in that garden is well beyond my understanding.

On a side note, I have always found it rather poetic that the Fall and at least the begging of the Atonement both happened in a garden.

I would have more of an issue with a single God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost being one person and having him talk to himself asking that if possible to have it pass from him, in essence talking to himself.

Ben Raines

Well that sounds a good bit like a modalistic viewpoint and I have had trouble with that. I think there gets to be a lot of confusion on the topic of 'oneness'. I think many make the mistake of getting so hung up in 'oneness' that the concept itself is almost assigned its own personality.... Like a fourth individual in a three person relationship. It just doesn't fit well at all. Hope I articulated that well enough. Sometimes I have a bad habit of writing things that make perfect sense to me, but not to anyone else.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[BenRaines]

So does that mean you agree with me or disagree in last part of the previous post? :)

Ben Raines

[kodabear]

Hi I'm Mudcat,

This is my first post on this forum and I wanted to preface it and me.

I am a non-LDS Christian. I have participated on some other forums related to LDS apologetics and criticisms under the same moniker I have here.

Several years back I read through the Standard Works and did not receive a testimony of them, hopefully this thread won't get derailed on that specific topic, just thought you should know.

I have made a decision to read through them again and hopefully this place will be a welcome forum for answers from LDS, when I have questions.

That being said, in the Testimony of the Three Witnesses at the close there is this statement.

Superficially this statement could be seen as falling into perfect accordance with my current Trinitarian thought. However I realize that LDS view the Godhead in a different manner, than that.

So bearing that in mind, what does it mean to be one God in the sense of the what the 3 witnesses were saying?

Hopefully, I articulated that well enough, if not please let me know and I will try to clarify my thoughts. Also, I hope you folks don't mind me popping in with questions along these lines from time to time.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

The term one God in reference to the God head is that they are 3 sparate beings, but are ONE in purpose, attitude and united.

[Mudcat]

So does that mean you agree with me or disagree in last part of the previous post? :)

Ben Raines

Hey Ben,

I reposted the quote.

I would have more of an issue with a single God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost being one person and having him talk to himself asking that if possible to have it pass from him, in essence talking to himself.

Emphasis mine, what you seem to be describing here is modalism and if so, I agree with you and completely disagree with the concept.

However, I know in the OP I mentioned that I was a Trinitarian, so I didn't know if this was what your impression of the Trinity was. I don't want to put words in your mouth, you may not be suggesting this at all. But I wouldn't mind trying to clarify if that is the case.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[skalenfehl]

Being one God is being single minded, harmonious, one in purpose. Where there is no division there is no confusion and God is not a God of confusion. Consider the 17th chapter of John in the New Testament where Jesus prays to the Father on behalf of his disciples, that they should be one even as Christ and the Father are one, perfected.

John 17: 21-23

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

To be so united is perfect harmony. One day we all can be one with Them when this earth is past and are no more divided in beliefs, minds and ways. This is heaven. My two cents.

[Mudcat]

Being one God is being single minded, harmonious, one in purpose. Where there is no division there is no confusion and God is not a God of confusion. Consider the 17th chapter of John in the New Testament where Jesus prays to the Father on behalf of his disciples, that they should be one even as Christ and the Father are one, perfected.

John 17: 21-23

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

To be so united is perfect harmony. One day we all can be one with Them when this earth is past and are no more divided in beliefs, minds and ways. This is heaven. My two cents.

Hi Skalenfehl,

I liked the way you put that and agree with your thoughts.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

I just wanted to take a quick moment to say thanks to all those who have posted.

I feel as the my question in the OP has been answered and I am appreciative.

As I stated earlier, I am reading the Standard Works again....

So far I am only through the intro of the BoM and 1 Nephi 10. I may start a new thread on Lehi's dream, but will most likely wait until I am done with 1 Nephi before I do so.

It was good discussing this with you guys and gals.

Please don't consider this a note of closure to the thread. I will continue to follow up with it, if discussion continues. Just wanted to say thanks.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[kodabear]

Hey mudcat, that is why i joined the site. To answer and get answers to questions.

dont hesitate to contact me.

[Gerasim]

1. John 5:1-13

1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

2. Nephi 31:21

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.