Our Intelligences and Learning

[Prodigal_Son]

I'm glad this reference is in here....

Thanks for your input. While I like the theory, and it works for me - I'm not ignorant to the fact that it may be wrong. His logic behind God being subject to anything is, in a nutshell, based on the scriptures that say "or God would cease to be God". That God must work within certain laws is what is suggested. That the intelligences obey Him because they trust Him because He never violates these laws - is the way I understand this principle to work.

Again, whether or not it's accurate, is up to each person to decide, but it sounds good to simple-minded-me.

[Justice]

I love your quote from Benjamin Franklin, Prodigal_Son.

My take is that all truth must exist together in harmony. This we know:

1) We are spirit children of Heavenly Parents.

2) The element or material that makes up our spirit bodies (intelligence) has existed forever.

Whatever we believe or learn must hinge on those 2 truths.

It is in this regard, to understand our "spirtual birth" we can use our physical birth as a pattern, since:

Moses 6:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

I realize this is talking about our spiritual RE-birth, but it is more than interesting that it makes this comparison. There is consistency between a spirit birth and a physical birth. I also believe this applies to our actual coming into conscience, or spirtual birth.

63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

Again, this scripture is not speaking of how spirits come into existence, but the words make it clear that the physical is patterned after the spiritual. So, if we want to understand the spiritual we can study the physical.

Physical birth:

1) We are born of earthly parents (both male and female).

2) The material that makes up our bodies (physical element) has existed forever.

Very similar.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Justice

[BenRaines]

Thank you all for your thoughtful input to this thread.

Ben Raines

[annewandering]

What we are, always was. You may not be able to find it in doctrine but you can not find doctrine to tell me it is not true.

I was who I am and always will be. God chose the brightest most intelligent spirit to be first born. Jesus. He recognized Him as an intelligence. Not as an atom or whatever.

Our problem is, being man, we always want to put bounds on things. Where did I become me? When did it happen? When was the beginning?

I find it much harder to put bounds on things. What was it before it was if there was nothing?

We always were and I dont mean pretty sparkles with no mind. I personally like the pretty sparkles and claim that but not without my essential being to go with it.

Never had a desire to be a molecule with an equal amount of self identity.

[aliasgeorge]

What we are, always was. You may not be able to find it in doctrine but you can not find doctrine to tell me it is not true.

I was who I am and always will be. God chose the brightest most intelligent spirit to be first born. Jesus. He recognized Him as an intelligence. Not as an atom or whatever.

Our problem is, being man, we always want to put bounds on things. Where did I become me? When did it happen? When was the beginning?

I find it much harder to put bounds on things. What was it before it was if there was nothing?

We always were and I dont mean pretty sparkles with no mind. I personally like the pretty sparkles and claim that but not without my essential being to go with it.

Never had a desire to be a molecule with an equal amount of self identity.

I respectfully disagree, and you can read my prior post as to why I feel that the "doctrine" teaches otherwise. It is true that God has not revealed to us all the details of this. But if there was no organized pre-spirit being that was "you," it doesn't diminish who you are in the least. There was no organized physical body for me prior to my conception, and that doesn't diminish the body that I have. I think the same can be said for the spirit.

[bmy-]

I respectfully disagree, and you can read my prior post as to why I feel that the "doctrine" teaches otherwise. It is true that God has not revealed to us all the details of this. But if there was no organized pre-spirit being that was "you," it doesn't diminish who you are in the least. There was no organized physical body for me prior to my conception, and that doesn't diminish the body that I have. I think the same can be said for the spirit.

There was an intelligent (organized) something in a pre-spirit form I think we can all agree on that. Whether or not it was "you" or "raw material" is likely up for debate.

I personally believe everything works in enormous cycles.. and that we are 'reborn' so to speak once we reach the 'highest level' of Godhood. Think 'One with the Force' in Starwars.

Just speculation on my part and I have no scriptural evidence.. nor confirmation from prayer.

Then again.. i've been reading The Wheel of Time far to often lately.. It just 'fits' (imo).

[Justice]

God chose the brightest most intelligent spirit to be first born.

Heavenly Father chose the Firstborn... that is first of His spirit born children. Jehova was not born into mortality first, Adam was.

[Hemidakota]

Justice, opination here: If we were to correlate both texts, Book of Moses compared to Book of Abraham [whom speaks first], it reveals some startling issues who were the first created spirit. Logically, we see this in mortality when Jacob who was not born first is the first born son by taking Ishmael birthright. If that was not enough evidence, look at Able then Seth over Cain, who was born prior to Able or Seth, back in the end, they won that privilege of being the First born.

[Justice]

Not sure where you're going with that, Hemi.

[Hemidakota]

There was an intelligent (organized) something in a pre-spirit form I think we can all agree on that. Whether or not it was "you" or "raw material" is likely up for debate.

I personally believe everything works in enormous cycles.. and that we are 'reborn' so to speak once we reach the 'highest level' of Godhood. Think 'One with the Force' in Starwars.

Just speculation on my part and I have no scriptural evidence.. nor confirmation from prayer.

Then again.. i've been reading The Wheel of Time far to often lately.. It just 'fits' (imo).

I don't understand how hard it is for some here to seek the answer from GOD directly. No! At this time, spiritual immaturity is a problem in the church and what can be revealed will not be revealed until then. This still doesn't stop a faithful member of the church to receive additional enlightenment on this topic.

Now, some made some clear assumptions based on Abraham's vision but he did not record everything for the reader. He only gave the portion where we are created after GOD's image. This to me means, we were in another form vice human. I do believe it will prove logical for the faithful Saints, if we ponder over the order of creation, you will find that answer. As I don’t believe that anything lower than Celestial Kingdom will inherit a physical glorified body like the Savior or our Heavenly Parents. Yes! They are quickened to be resurrected but not to the level of glorified state as to having progeny. This requires a physical glorified body. If both lower kingdoms do not require one to be baptized and to have temple ordinances to be done, why have a glorified physical body? I have reviewed Talmage point on this issue and I have to agree with him. The Savior only spoke on the Celestial Kingdom will have these special unique attributes. If that is the case, what happens to those in the lower kingdoms? At this point, in answering this question openly, those who have the desire to know, make the attempt with GOD and with hope and faith that answer will come eventually.

Getting back to Intelligence or the ‘I AM’, as Skousen ‘s mentor Talmage taught him through the search of the scriptures, if one connect the dots, you will eventually find that answer on what it is. In connecting those dots, I know I occupy this physical body and control I think all of its functions, in actuality, there are many intelligences that reside with me to ensure it stays operation. How that is achieved? They give me Honor. I think allot of our mental disturbed issues we have found in the last thousand years of thinking will change in the foreseeable future when we come to understanding on the term ‘I AM’ or intelligence.

[Hemidakota]

Not sure where you're going with that, Hemi.

How was Jacob chosen to be the first born son? How was Seth considered the first born son to Adam?

[Justice]

How words, like death and birth, are defined depends on where one is when viewing them. I believe "birth and death" are actually very different when viewed through mortal eyes verses when viewed through immortal eyes.

For instance, when in mortality we view death as "cease to exist or to leave the realm of the living." If you view mortal death from immortal eyes, it may be close to the opposite.

With this understanding, birth, whether mortal or spiritual, takes on new perspective.

They were chosen to be firstborn through spiritual eyes, or immortal eyes, not mortal ones.

[Hemidakota]

Looking at it hypothetically, it could be said with reason, Lucifer may of been created first and may explained his outrage in not being accepted as the first born son for GOD in mortality. To add, his devoted followers may had seen this and may not agreed on this issue.

[Just_A_Guy]

Doesn't Talmage assert that Jesus was the firstborn spirit? (Apologies if this has come up earlier in the thread; I'm just skimming the last couple of pages)

[Hemidakota]

Do you mean this quote?

"Whom the Father called His Chosen, His Beloved Son, His First-born of spirits, His Only Begotten in the flesh." Improvement Era, 1932

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, I don't read old issues of the Improvement Era on a regular basis, but that was the gist of it. ;-)

[aliasgeorge]

One of the more recent sources where the church declares that Jesus is the first born spirit child is in the new special edition Ensign on the Living Christ. Jesus is the First born spirit child of the Father.

[Justice]

Unless it is something that cannot be any other way, I try to keep an open mind. It makes no difference to me which was born spiritually first. However, it could be that Jehova was so wonderful and obedient that He was actually "born again" or "reborn spiritually" before He was even born here.

I never considered this, but I'll set it aside for a rainy day because there are far more important things, to me, that I am studying right now... things that I need to understand.

[Just_A_Guy]

Justice, I've seen a quote out there somewhere that it was actually Jesus' duty, as firstborn Spirit, to fulfill the role of Savior unless He rejected it or proved himself unworthy of it. I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Hemidakota]

Not if the FATHER picks HIS choice among HIS children that can fulfill that role.

There are many things that are hidden for a wise purpose and not needed to be revealed since it serves no purpose for the church as a whole. As must be always have the ability to keep an open mind that the Spirit can easily teach us.

I am in agreement with Justice. My love for the Savior and our Heavenly Parents, is more than who was first or not. :)