The biggest robbery of the century

[Hemidakota]

Like we do here, openly oppose our government. I have to agree with A-Train also. Government and the fanatics within Israel do not represent Judaism.

[Mahdi]

Later as they became a vocal and powerful force they elected their own representatives and eventually formed their own government. Hmmm, I think that is how it has been done for almost every country that has been formed.

this idea that every group can buy some lands in another country and then constitute another country in that country is really no acceptable!How is it possible?it is not reasonable!

whose land is it in the first place? Before replying, look at historical record from Abraham and move forward before replying to this statement. It will aid you with truth and not fanatical wisdom.

yes,I also know that one day,when Moses(peace be upon Him),before coming christ(Peace be upon Him),Jews have come to the land of Israel!

I have read it and also it has come in our religous book(Muslims books)!

but there are some questions that I want you to think about it!:

-Why most Jews that are not zionist,are against of Israel?

it is good to know that all around the world ,most jews condemn what Israel is doing!They say that According to their religious book,they havn't permission to constitute a country!In Iran also jews come to the street and condemn what Israel is doin!

-I give you an example:

The persian (old Iran),one day was governing about half of the asia.The Persian Empire is famous if you!They were living about 500 B.C.

So can Iran now claim that because one day those lands were our properties so now it is our right to occupy it?!

if you say yes,then you give right to every country to claim this .then you will see that the world will drown in wars!Because every land of any country belonged to another nations one day!

There will never be peace until Islam has a true prophet that is called by Allah [GOD]...

please don't talk about religions,because this thread is only about Israel and palestine .But,you know that christians of other sects say about mormonism like what you are saying me.you can try it in another thread!

Seek peace with the Jews and learn to get along with them as a people being under one roof. Then, they will blossom as rose in the desert. I promise it will happen if they seek this agenda.

my friend,What you are trying to tell me,my Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon Him) has teached me about 1400 years ago!So please don't tell about it!You know that we are living in Iran with Jews.

I had also a friend in my school that was jew.But if you mean those arabs that are against of jews ,like Alqaeda or Taliban,vahhabies,... it is good to know that we(shias) believe that they aren't muslim.What they are doing is straightly against of what our prophet Muhammad has teached!

He teached us to live with the followers of other heavenly religions in peace!

Maybe you know that when Muhammad came to Mecca and after He constitude the Islamic government ,He told the Jews of Arabia that we write a treaty to live in peace with each other!But after a while Jews broke the treaty and they gathered a corps to fight with prophet ,so the prophet forced to fight with them.So please don't teach me this!

And please don't write these things about Islam here!Write it in another threat.

I truly love the true Muslim who love Allah and walk in HIS footstep in seeking peace and showing love to humanity. As I love those who considered to be of the Tribe of Judah or called Jews. We are brothers and sisters, no matter the culture, country, or lineage..

thank you much my brother about this fantastic las line!yes it is Just what I try to say here in this site!

Unfortunately some persons(Idon't call them Muslim)do something that is against of Islamic teachings but they say that what they had done is starightly what Allah(God) has ordered!And not in Islam but in every religion you can find these kind of persons!

I think if we want to continue,we should return to the thread not walking around!

question:

Till now,after 8 days war,about 440 civilians were killed in Gaza and most of them died because of the leakage of food and drugs.Why?

And another question:

Why Israel attackes on Hospitals???

Were are those who say to us :" we follow the Human rights not you?!"

Don't they see these criminal actions?

Most of those that were being killed ,were kids,women,... .

If you kill a dog , they will protest agains you but if Israeli troops attack on Hospitals and religious places and don't let palestinians to enter food and drugs and kill 440 civillians, no word will come out from their mouth!!!

Just Why?

Edited January 3, 2009 by Mahdi

[Hemidakota]

yes,I also know that one day,when Moses(peace be upon Him),before coming christ(Peace be upon Him),Jews have come to the land of Israel! I have read it and also it has come in our religious book(Muslims books)! but there are some questions that I want you to think about it!:

-Why most Jews that are not zionist,are against of Israel?

it is good to know that all around the world ,most jews condemn what Israel is doing!They say that According to their religious book,they havn't permission to constitute a country!In Iran also jews come to the street and condemn what Israel is doin!

-I give you an example:

The persian (old Iran),one day was governing about half of the asia.The Persian Empire is famous if you!They were living about 500 B.C.

So can Iran now claim that because one day those lands were our properties so now it is our right to occupy it?!

if you say yes,then you give right to every country to claim this .then you will see that the world will drown in wars!Because every land of any country belonged to another nations one day!

In the Koran, it is partly a mixture of the Old Testament and added words from the Prophet Mohammad.

Unless you truly believe that Allah or GOD, gave them the land through Abraham [Hebrews], then we stand apart. Through Abraham son and grandson, Jacob, the 11 of the 12 sons will inherit the lands from Syria down to the Sinai area, over to Iraq.

Conquering lands is no different when Alexandria conquered Iran and most of the same region. Was Alexandria called by GOD? No....not all leaders are called by GOD and GOD did not ask them to conquer the world.

Not only the Tribe of Judah will inherit there portion of the land, other ten tribes will return to remove anyone that is not of that tribe.

[Palerider]

Like I stated and asked earlier.....Hamas does not do the same thing you are accusing Israel of...in other words they don't kill innocent people, women and or children???

[Hemidakota]

please don't talk about religions,because this thread is only about Israel and palestine .But,you know that christians of other sects say about mormonism like what you are saying me.you can try it in another thread!

Same goes for any religion. It was a positive post and nothing to do with aformation. I hope for a day that all of Islam will come under one body and not be divided.

[Hemidakota]

my friend,What you are trying to tell me,my Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon Him) has teached me about 1400 years ago!So please don't tell about it!You know that we are living in Iran with Jews.

I had also a friend in my school that was jew.But if you mean those arabs that are against of jews ,like Alqaeda or Taliban,vahhabies,... it is good to know that we(shias) believe that they aren't muslim.What they are doing is straightly against of what our prophet Muhammad has teached!

He teached us to live with the followers of other heavenly religions in peace!

Maybe you know that when Muhammad came to Mecca and after He constitute the Islamic government ,He told the Jews of Arabia that we write a treaty to live in peace with each other!But after a while Jews broke the treaty and they gathered a corps to fight with prophet ,so the prophet forced to fight with them.So please don't teach me this!

And please don't write these things about Islam here!Write it in another threat.

You need to look within and rid of yourself the false notions that abound in your life. It may help you to see clearer than to have such negativism eating away your soul concerning bad information. There is nothing here add.

"Let us not reasoning on others who claimed to have the truths but seeked out the one who holds the truth."

[BenRaines]

Need to check your stats Mahdi, Only a total of 400 plus deaths and of those about 100 civilians. If Hamas did not hide out in schools or mosques where people are worshiping then less civilian deaths.

Last information I received the Israelis were calling to houses and telling people they had 30 minutes to leave and then the house would be bombed. Some left and survived. Others didn't believe and died in the bombing. If someone calls me and says "Leave your house it is going to blow up on 30 minutes" I am gone in 5.

Ben Raines

[Palerider]

Need to check your stats Mahdi, Only a total of 400 plus deaths and of those about 100 civilians. If Hamas did not hide out in schools or mosques where people are worshiping then less civilian deaths.

Last information I received the Israelis were calling to houses and telling people they had 30 minutes to leave and then the house would be bombed. Some left and survived. Others didn't believe and died in the bombing. If someone calls me and says "Leave your house it is going to blow up on 30 minutes" I am gone in 5.

Ben Raines

I am outta there in 4.....:)

[Traveler]

this idea that every group can buy some lands in another country and then constitute another country in that country is really no acceptable!How is it possible?it is not reasonable!

yes,I also know that one day,when Moses(peace be upon Him),before coming christ(Peace be upon Him),Jews have come to the land of Israel!

I have read it and also it has come in our religous book(Muslims books)!

but there are some questions that I want you to think about it!:

-Why most Jews that are not zionist,are against of Israel?

it is good to know that all around the world ,most jews condemn what Israel is doing!They say that According to their religious book,they havn't permission to constitute a country!In Iran also jews come to the street and condemn what Israel is doin!

-I give you an example:

The persian (old Iran),one day was governing about half of the asia.The Persian Empire is famous if you!They were living about 500 B.C.

So can Iran now claim that because one day those lands were our properties so now it is our right to occupy it?!

if you say yes,then you give right to every country to claim this .then you will see that the world will drown in wars!Because every land of any country belonged to another nations one day!

please don't talk about religions,because this thread is only about Israel and palestine .But,you know that christians of other sects say about mormonism like what you are saying me.you can try it in another thread!

my friend,What you are trying to tell me,my Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon Him) has teached me about 1400 years ago!So please don't tell about it!You know that we are living in Iran with Jews.

I had also a friend in my school that was jew.But if you mean those arabs that are against of jews ,like Alqaeda or Taliban,vahhabies,... it is good to know that we(shias) believe that they aren't muslim.What they are doing is straightly against of what our prophet Muhammad has teached!

He teached us to live with the followers of other heavenly religions in peace!

Maybe you know that when Muhammad came to Mecca and after He constitude the Islamic government ,He told the Jews of Arabia that we write a treaty to live in peace with each other!But after a while Jews broke the treaty and they gathered a corps to fight with prophet ,so the prophet forced to fight with them.So please don't teach me this!

And please don't write these things about Islam here!Write it in another threat.

thank you much my brother about this fantastic las line!yes it is Just what I try to say here in this site!

Unfortunately some persons(Idon't call them Muslim)do something that is against of Islamic teachings but they say that what they had done is starightly what Allah(God) has ordered!And not in Islam but in every religion you can find these kind of persons!

I think if we want to continue,we should return to the thread not walking around!

question:

Till now,after 8 days war,about 440 civilians were killed in Gaza and most of them died because of the leakage of food and drugs.Why?

And another question:

Why Israel attackes on Hospitals???

Were are those who say to us :" we follow the Human rights not you?!"

Don't they see these criminal actions?

Most of those that were being killed ,were kids,women,... .

If you kill a dog , they will protest agains you but if Israeli troops attack on Hospitals and religious places and don't let palestinians to enter food and drugs and kill 440 civillians, no word will come out from their mouth!!!

Just Why?

I have been interested in your post - but I see nothing from you that suggest there is a possible solution to this conflict. What do you suggest ought to be done to resolve the conflict?

As you think of this please remember that you are talking to a Mormon who ancestors were driven from their homes in Missouri with an extermination order from the governor that created a trail of blood (yes even the blood of our women and children), which was not rescinded for over 100 years (within my lifetime). Then many of the survivors were again forced to flee their homes in Illinois and all civilization which costs the lives of one of every five Mormons. Only the savage Native American population of all the enlightened civilizations of the entire world came to our aid. When we settled in what is now known as Utah (a baren desert), within a few years the United States sent its largest army to destroy us.

It is by the grace of G-d (Allah) that we survived and have made many of our enemies our friends. This was done without our taking up arms or seeking revenge or seeking that our home lands be restored. It came by making what home we could with what land G-d gave us and trusting him more than the conflicts of war.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

.....

my friend,What you are trying to tell me,my Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon Him) has teached me about 1400 years ago!So please don't tell about it!You know that we are living in Iran with Jews.

I had also a friend in my school that was jew.But if you mean those arabs that are against of jews ,like Alqaeda or Taliban,vahhabies,... it is good to know that we(shias) believe that they aren't muslim.What they are doing is straightly against of what our prophet Muhammad has teached!

He teached us to live with the followers of other heavenly religions in peace!

Maybe you know that when Muhammad came to Mecca and after He constitude the Islamic government ,He told the Jews of Arabia that we write a treaty to live in peace with each other!But after a while Jews broke the treaty and they gathered a corps to fight with prophet ,so the prophet forced to fight with them.So please don't teach me this!

And please don't write these things about Islam here!Write it in another threat.

.....

I am concerned with your understanding of the history of Islam. So I will ask you - not about Christians or Jews in Iran but about the majority of Muslims in Bahrain that are denied all the right you say are denied to the Palestinians and if they fight back they are treated worse than the Palestinians but their rights and property are denied by Muslims (of a different sect) and not Jews – But you say nothing of them – Why?

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

Traveler, you find many within the Islam, have not fully read the Koran.

[Islander]

Traveler, you find many within the Islam, have not fully read the Koran.

Yes. In fact, most in the Islamic world can not read or write. In many places the Koran is recited in Arabic by those that do not speak it.

Beyond that, it appears that radical interpretations of the Koran is finding its way into most undercurrents of the religion. Without formal or stratified hierarchy many are preaching their own "brand" of Islam the world over.

[Traveler]

Yes. In fact, most in the Islamic world can not read or write. In many places the Koran is recited in Arabic by those that do not speak it.

Beyond that, it appears that radical interpretations of the Koran is finding its way into most undercurrents of the religion. Without formal or stratified hierarchy many are preaching their own "brand" of Islam the world over.

I must be honest here – I have friends who are of the religion of Islam. I was invited as a guest into the private home for a one week Islamic wedding celebration in the country of Bahrain. My experiences with those of the Islamic religion are that they are more knowledgeable of the Koran and its origins than most Christians are of the Bible and its origins. Most Islamic children are taught to read the Koran in the original language in which it was written, in fact this is a requirement but like baptism among the LDS this may be done for someone by proxy even after they have died.

As far as a history of war – again I think the traditions of Christianity over the last 2,000 years are even bloodier.

With all this said – I do not believe that peace is beyond us. Nor do I believe that the differences between Islam and Christians (specifically LDS) are such that we cannot learn from each other. We must begin by speaking to our concerns but keep in mind that the bias of the information we receive here in America is quite different from the bias of information they are receiving in countries predominately Islamic. This does not mean one of us is wrong and the other is right. One thing for sure is that the current course, tactics and methods are not bringing peace but greater conflict. I do not believe that G-d (Allah) is pleased with conflict – I do believe that greater faith and reliance on G-d (Allah) will do more to resolve the conflict than blame, revenge or even winning a major war.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

I found among those who I converse with are quite the opposite of the knowledge and written word of the Prophet Mohammad; not including the clergy.

[Islander]

Traveler:

I just wanted to stress the point that the Islamic world is vast. Most of it does not have access to Internet or CNN. They "see" the world thru the biased glass of the local clergy just like Christians in the first 1000 years. There is no freedom of speech or the press in the Islamic world. Not one dissenting word is being printed inside the Islamic countries in regards to the very steep and aberrant curve the religious elite is taking "Jihad." There is no talk of peace inside the Middle East. The "moderates" the intellectuals and all those we term rational people are ALL outside of the ME and yield no political power in their own countries where most are considered heretics and traitors with Fatwa or death sentence in their names. Anyone brave enough to articulate a moderate agenda becomes a cadaver in search of a grave. it is just a matter of time. Case in point Benazir Bhutto, if you recall.

Is peace possible in the ME? Of course, yes. Is it likely to be the result of honest, willful and well intended negotiations? Unlikely.

[selek]

Mahdi, you are quite correct that truth is truth.

Unfortunately, what you are spouting are lies.

Arabs were perfectly welcome in the newly established State of Israel, and were grant full suffrage and citizenship.

Israelis, almost without exception, purchased their land.

The mass exodus of Arabs didn't start until the unprovoked and genocidal attacks by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

Israel didn't start this fight- she was attacked.

Israel doesn't go out of her way to target innocent civilians- that's the habit and practice of the people you're shilling for.

Israel doesn't blow up innocent women and children in bus stations, schools, and restaurants- that's the province of your cowardly brethren and fellow travelers.

I strongly suggest you stop drinking the Kool-aid and start looking at something besides anti-Semetic propoganda to form your world view.

You came here spouting racist propaganda.

Come up with something better if you want to stick around, eh?

[Faded]

First -- The displacement of the Palestinians was NOT the biggest robbery of the 20th century. It's actually a very small contender.

The biggest problem I see with the Palestinian Plight? Islam has a very, very selective memory -- one that is extremely, extremely Muslim biased. The Palestinians are stuck in a terrible set of circumstances. Yes, it's not fair. But their circumstances are certainly not unique nor are they as terrible as several others that also happened in the 20th century.

I would have to disagree that this is the "Greatest Robbery of the Century." The Palestinian dilemma stems from something that is ABSOLUTELY nothing new in this world. A mass displacement of an entire ethnic group? The Romans did it with more brutality when driving the the Jews out of the same land, for one thing. They didn't tolerate any Jews remaining either. And this is where we come to the first example of Islam having selective memory -- many Muslims try to make the case that the Jews were never there in the first place. That they did not spend thousands of years living in that very same piece of ground and that their millennia of residence was brutally interrupted by an outside invading force. Very similar to the Palestinians, but with intentional mass-extermination tactics. And its a fact of public record of the Roman Empire.

The Armenian Holocaust saw the displacement of millions Armenians within the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century. But they didn't stop at just taking their homes (which were never returned of course.) They killed them. Armenians in the army were first isolated, then shot when they weren't expecting it. The Armenian people were rounded up driven from their homes and force-marched out into a desert where they were starved, raped and tortured to death. A bare minimum of 1.5 million of them died in that place. The number is likely higher, but because Turkey and all of Islam try very hard to pretend that the Armenian Holocaust never happened, any investigation to establish better numbers is pretty much impossible. If we're looking at a "Robbery of the 20th Century" then that's the first case that absolutely blows away the Palestinians' experience. It's a pretty strong contender since the murderer-nations involved are still determined to pretend it never happened and have sealed all records from public view. This holocaust bears tremendous significance over later, larger mass-exterminations: 1.) It was instigated and carried out by Muslims. 2.) The same Muslims screaming bloody murder over Palestine are refusing to acknowledge that it ever happened.

World War 2 provides three cases that absolutely blow away what has happened to the Palestinians.

1.) The Jewish Holocaust drove all of Europe's Jews from their homes and took all of their property. Then 6 million of them died in the Nazi camps. While this mass-extermination is smaller in scale than the other two, it also came very close to completely erasing all European Jews from the face of the Earth.

2.) In 4 years of brutal conflict 29 million Russians died. Roughly 10 million of those are military casualties (many of which were Prisoners of War that were intentionally worked to death.) The remaining 19 million were civilian casualties, primarily slaughtered by the Einsatztruppen death squad from Germany. Their purpose? To depopulate the conquered parts of Russia to open the way for German settlement.

3.) Over in China, the same scenario was playing out at the hands of the Japanese. 20 million Chinese were killed. 3.8 million of that was military. 16.2 million was Japanese death squads attempting to depopulated the conquered parts of China to make way for Japanese settlers. Similar to the Ottomans, Japan won't admit to any of that of course.

Of those four cases, the Jews and Armenians never got their land and homes back. But all four cases did something that is far worse that losing your homes. The Armenians, Jews, Russians and Chinese were killed. You can't give them their lives back.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Faded

[Faded]

All of that aside, the Palestinians' Plight is a very unfortunate and very unfair thing. The Palestinians can't and won't leave and rebuild their lives elsewhere.

1.) Most don't want to leave. The Arab nations collectively assured the Palestinians that they would get them their land back. So many of them sit in refugee camps for decades waiting.

2.) Those that might be willing have nowhere to go. Other Muslim nations have refused to take them in and continue to do so.

I have always compared the Palestinian's situation to Apartheid with suicide bombers. Similarly to South Africa, you have a majority ethnic group with no right to vote, no guaranteed freedoms and no rights to speak of. The difference? The repressed people have either done or allowed a lot of really stupid things to happen on their behalf.

1.) For the first 30 years of the existence of the nation of Israel, the surrounding Muslim nations repeatedly tried and failed to wipe out Israel, "In the name of God" and on behalf of the Palestinian people.

2.) After Egypt (the biggest ring leader) agreed to stop it's attacks in exchange for the Sinai Peninsula, the Muslim world saw the formation of a long list of extremist groups with the same mission -- annihilate Israel. Terrorism, suicide bombing and many such detestable things were done in the name of the Palestinians.

3.) When international pressure forced Israel to negotiate for giving self-rule and limited sovereignty to the Palestinians, the attacks on Israel rapidly escalated -- at a point when one would have hoped to see the opposite effect.

4.) Hamas is many things, but first and foremost, it is a terrorist organization whose mission is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The Palestinians were actually willing to elect Hamas to be their government. How did the Palestinians expect Israel to react to this? They were pressured into extending the olive branch of peace. The Palestinians respond enmasse by electing Hamas and thereby advocating the extermination of Israel. Palestinians extended the dagger for Israels olive branch.

Until the Palestinian people can eliminate the extremist groups from within themselves and denounce and seek to eliminate those in other Muslim nations -- until they do that they will continue to give up the moral high ground to Israel. Israel says, "We have to defend ourselves." Until all violent attacks on them cease, then they're right. And the Palestinians and Muslim extremist groups -- CAN'T FIGURE THAT OUT. Israel cannot afford to play nice.

If Mexico invades the United States, expect a violent response.

If Mongolia invades China, expect a violent response.

If North Korea invades Russia, expect a violent response.

If Luxembourg invades Germany, expect a violent response.

And therein lies the stupidity of it all. The extremists and Palestinians are attacking someone more powerful than themselves. Seriously, what did they expect? Israelis haven't been angels and have done some terrible things. But violence isn't helping the Palestinian's cause.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Faded

[Hemidakota]

The simple plight of these people as you said, GET RID THE EXTREMISTS AND DENOUNCE VIOLENCE. IF that would be the case, you can have no borders and a mixed culture of people under one house; as now seen in America.

With regards to Mexico, I expect a collapse within through civil strife.

[selek]

All of that aside, the Palestinians' Plight is a very unfortunate and very unfair thing. The Palestinians can't and won't leave and rebuild their lives elsewhere.

1.) Most don't want to leave. The Arab nations collectively assured the Palestinians that they would get them their land back. So many of them sit in refugee camps for decades waiting.

2.) Those that might be willing have nowhere to go. Other Muslim nations have refused to take them in and continue to do so.

You're also forgetting that the vast majority of the "displaced" Palestinians were not displaced from Israeli territory- but from other Arab nations.

Yasser Arafat (pedophile, terrorist, AIDS victim, and Nobel Peace Prize winner)- the quintessential Palestinian "refugee"- was from EGYPT.

I have always compared the Palestinian's situation to Apartheid with suicide bombers. Similarly to South Africa, you have a majority ethnic group with no right to vote, no guaranteed freedoms and no rights to speak of. The difference? The repressed people have either done or allowed a lot of really stupid things to happen on their behalf.

The other difference is that most of these people have never set foot on Israeli land- and most of their alleged "ancestors" left willingly centuries before. The modern "Palestinian" is the descendent of the tribal cast-offs and undesirables that Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq didn't want to have to deal with. Most have no more claim to land in Israel than they do to Nebraska.

The United States, the United Nations, and many other nations have spent many billions of dollars in "Palestine". What was the result? Terrorism. Mass murder. The intentional targeting of children.

The other difference is that alleged victims in this theft and apartheid have spent more time nursing their victim mentality rather than their children.

How different would Syria, Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank be if these people had devoted thier industry to building up their own country rather than destroying another?

1.) For the first 30 years of the existence of the nation of Israel, the surrounding Muslim nations repeatedly tried and failed to wipe out Israel, "In the name of God" and on behalf of the Palestinian people.

Yep- millions for bombs but not one cent for milk.

2.) After Egypt (the biggest ring leader) agreed to stop it's attacks in exchange for the Sinai Peninsula, the Muslim world saw the formation of a long list of extremist groups with the same mission -- annihilate Israel. Terrorism, suicide bombing and many such detestable things were done in the name of the Palestinians.

And the greater Muslim Khalifate.

3.) When international pressure forced Israel to negotiate for giving self-rule and limited sovereignty to the Palestinians, the attacks on Israel rapidly escalated -- at a point when one would have hoped to see the opposite effect.

And when Israel traded land for peace, she was rewarded with more attacks.

And the rich, developed land and infrastructure they left behind? Destroyed in an orgy of celebratory violence.

Principle among them were the most productive and celebrated green houses in the entire region- which exported specialty crops, fruits, and flowers throughout the region.

Most of the employees there were Arabs, and when the Israeli's withdrew, the employees bought the greenhouses.

Which were promptly destroyed by their fellow Palestinians.

4.) Hamas is many things, but first and foremost, it is a terrorist organization whose mission is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The Palestinians were actually willing to elect Hamas to be their government. How did the Palestinians expect Israel to react to this? They were pressured into extending the olive branch of peace. The Palestinians respond enmasse by electing Hamas and thereby advocating the extermination of Israel. Palestinians extended the dagger for Israels olive branch.

And treat every concession as a sign of weakness.

When Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza not three years ago, the response was press releases proclaiming victory of the Godless infidels and statements that Israeli capitulation was a sign and symptom of thier inevitable defeat and annihilation.

Until the Palestinian people can eliminate the extremist groups from within themselves and denounce and seek to eliminate those in other Muslim nations -- until they do that they will continue to give up the moral high ground to Israel. Israel says, "We have to defend ourselves." Until all violent attacks on them cease, then they're right. And the Palestinians and Muslim extremist groups -- CAN'T FIGURE THAT OUT. Israel cannot afford to play nice.

If Mexico invades the United States, expect a violent response.

If Mongolia invades China, expect a violent response.

If North Korea invades Russia, expect a violent response.

If Luxembourg invades Germany, expect a violent response.

And therein lies the stupidity of it all. The extremists and Palestinians are attacking someone more powerful than themselves. Seriously, what did they expect? Israelis haven't been angels and have done some terrible things. But violence isn't helping the Palestinian's cause.

But these people have already demonstrated that innocent lives- whether Arab or Israeli- take a back seat to thier ideology. The innocent people trapped in the West Bank and Gaza are the prisoners of their fellow Arabs and a fascist ideology that didn't trouble to learn the lessons of the 8th century, let alone the 1940's.

This territory was a neglected wasteland for many centuries- until the Jews moved in. If the forces of terrorism and religious fanaticism manage to destroy the state of Israel, the land will return to being a desolate, neglected wasteland for another millenia.

There is no "Palestinian cause"- only an anti-Semetic one that would have been right at home in the heart of central Europe in 1939- and the modern day Palestinian people are being victimized by it almost as much as the Israelis.

Edited January 12, 2009 by selek

[Faded]

The truth of the matter is, the Holy Land is exactly that: Holy ground. It is sacred to Christianity, Judaism and Islam. That's one of the troubles. The Muslim world once was the pinnacle of culture, technology and civilization. The Christians ruled that strip of holy ground. The Muslims took it from them and made it their own. What followed was centuries of Crusade vs Jihad, with the Christians finally giving up.

Somewhere in the past 400 years, Islam fell asleep while the entire world around them advanced by leaps and bounds. They are still locked into the Crusader vs Jihad mentality and they cannot fathom that Western Christianity isn't in the same mode if thinking. Most of them view the State of Israel as the "New Christian Crusade against Islam," while others see it as a Jewish Crusade against Islam.

The Arab world has contrived all manner of nonsense built around this thinking. There is tremendous resentment that all the power and influence in the world is concentrated around "heathen nations," while Islam has been relegated to irrelevance. How could this happen to them? "Aren't we Allah's chosen people?" But rather than blaming themselves or blaming Allah they find it much easier to blame the "infidels." Clearly, the Western Christian world must be in league with Satan, and that is how the infidels have robbed them of their rightful place in the world. Clearly they must be planning to destroy all the Muslims, or Satan will lead them to do some other terrible thing.

Obviously, not all Muslims feel this way, but I think much of that is at the root of their apparent blind hatred of Israel, the USA and the Western Christian World. The majority of Muslims do not condone violence on behalf of the Muslim cause, but most of them I've known like to offer excuses for the extremists. More than anything, their sympathies are focused on the Palestinians.

I don't know what it will take, but Islam needs to collectively wake up and solve their own problems. Rather than going the way of Iran and Afghanistan and making all things modern "blasphemy" and sticking their heads in the sand, they might consider doing as Japan did -- copy the relevant and useful parts of Western Civilization while maintaining their own cultural identity. More than that, become a useful part of the modern world by building up from within, rather than trying to attack everyone "bigger and better" than you.

[FunkyTown]

The truth of the matter is, the Holy Land is exactly that: Holy ground. It is sacred to Christianity, Judaism and Islam. That's one of the troubles. The Muslim world once was the pinnacle of culture, technology and civilization. The Christians ruled that strip of holy ground. The Muslims took it from them and made it their own. What followed was centuries of Crusade vs Jihad, with the Christians finally giving up.

Somewhere in the past 400 years, Islam fell asleep while the entire world around them advanced by leaps and bounds. They are still locked into the Crusader vs Jihad mentality and they cannot fathom that Western Christianity isn't in the same mode if thinking. Most of them view the State of Israel as the "New Christian Crusade against Islam," while others see it as a Jewish Crusade against Islam.

The Arab world has contrived all manner of nonsense built around this thinking. There is tremendous resentment that all the power and influence in the world is concentrated around "heathen nations," while Islam has been relegated to irrelevance. How could this happen to them? "Aren't we Allah's chosen people?" But rather than blaming themselves or blaming Allah they find it much easier to blame the "infidels." Clearly, the Western Christian world must be in league with Satan, and that is how the infidels have robbed them of their rightful place in the world. Clearly they must be planning to destroy all the Muslims, or Satan will lead them to do some other terrible thing.

Obviously, not all Muslims feel this way, but I think much of that is at the root of their apparent blind hatred of Israel, the USA and the Western Christian World. The majority of Muslims do not condone violence on behalf of the Muslim cause, but most of them I've known like to offer excuses for the extremists. More than anything, their sympathies are focused on the Palestinians.

I don't know what it will take, but Islam needs to collectively wake up and solve their own problems. Rather than going the way of Iran and Afghanistan and making all things modern "blasphemy" and sticking their heads in the sand, they might consider doing as Japan did -- copy the relevant and useful parts of Western Civilization while maintaining their own cultural identity. More than that, become a useful part of the modern world by building up from within, rather than trying to attack everyone "bigger and better" than you.

Can you quote source that this is their thinking? Some quote from a popular radical Cleric or some sort? I'm not saying it's wrong, but without source I find a sweeping generalized statement like this suspect.

[Hemidakota]

The truth of the matter is, the Holy Land is exactly that: Holy ground. It is sacred to Christianity, Judaism and Islam. That's one of the troubles. The Muslim world once was the pinnacle of culture, technology and civilization. The Christians ruled that strip of holy ground. The Muslims took it from them and made it their own. What followed was centuries of Crusade vs Jihad, with the Christians finally giving up.

Somewhere in the past 400 years, Islam fell asleep while the entire world around them advanced by leaps and bounds. They are still locked into the Crusader vs Jihad mentality and they cannot fathom that Western Christianity isn't in the same mode if thinking. Most of them view the State of Israel as the "New Christian Crusade against Islam," while others see it as a Jewish Crusade against Islam.

The Arab world has contrived all manner of nonsense built around this thinking. There is tremendous resentment that all the power and influence in the world is concentrated around "heathen nations," while Islam has been relegated to irrelevance. How could this happen to them? "Aren't we Allah's chosen people?" But rather than blaming themselves or blaming Allah they find it much easier to blame the "infidels." Clearly, the Western Christian world must be in league with Satan, and that is how the infidels have robbed them of their rightful place in the world. Clearly they must be planning to destroy all the Muslims, or Satan will lead them to do some other terrible thing.

Obviously, not all Muslims feel this way, but I think much of that is at the root of their apparent blind hatred of Israel, the USA and the Western Christian World. The majority of Muslims do not condone violence on behalf of the Muslim cause, but most of them I've known like to offer excuses for the extremists. More than anything, their sympathies are focused on the Palestinians.

I don't know what it will take, but Islam needs to collectively wake up and solve their own problems. Rather than going the way of Iran and Afghanistan and making all things modern "blasphemy" and sticking their heads in the sand, they might consider doing as Japan did -- copy the relevant and useful parts of Western Civilization while maintaining their own cultural identity. More than that, become a useful part of the modern world by building up from within, rather than trying to attack everyone "bigger and better" than you.

Excellent posting.

Though holy it is but the holy place that GOD reveals HIMSELF are many throughout the Earth. The greatest of among them all is the exact place where the Garden of Eden was.

[Islander]

Funky:

There are a number of articles and position papers that seem to agree with Faded's position. I am away from my home computer at the moment so I will owe you the sources but Daniel C Peterson has written on the subject. The Islamic Monitor produced an interview with a well known scholar (found the link) that you may find interesting. The Near East Studies Center at George Washington has some very interesting research on the subject.

For the most part, radical Islam centers on the belief that the Islamic world lost its power and preponderance because it abandoned its foundational roots. The thinking is that "going back to the basics" will restore Islam former glory and power. Thus they advocate for a posture that is today divorced from notions of freedom, technical advancement, social improvement, equality and peaceful coexistence but closer to what they interpret as the original Islamic society.

There is some consensus that the radicalization of Islam has to do with a strong psychological response to what they see as the "Westoxification" of Islamic societies. The West is attractive, hypnotic, enticing, powerful. It is also, in their view, corrupt, decadent, immoral, powerful and threatening to their way of life. So they feel seduced by it in the one hand and repulsed by the notion that they are attracted to it. They reason that when they were strong, Christianity and Judaism did not pose a theological threat to them. They see them as apostate forms of the religion of the Patriarchs. Islam is the superior religion in their view. They are frustrated and amazed at how cunning, smart and powerful the Christians and the Jews have become. Today, the Islamic world counts among the most repressive, backwards, underdeveloped, poorest and violent societies in the planet. But they can not bring themselves to accept it. They find the West as a ready target.

Remember, on 9/11/2001 we were minding our own business. We had little if any involvement in the ME then. It is not what we do but who we are that bothers them.

Just some thoughts.

The Demise of Islam?

[NeuroTypical]

Can you quote source that this is their thinking?

I'll third Islander's second of Faded's summary. By way of sources, everything I've read from the Stratfor organization basically aligns with Faded's statements.

Stratfor's take on 9/11 was quite interesting. In their view, America wasn't Al Qaeda's main enemy, just a means to an end. Al Qaeda's main enemy was the secular and "not Muslim enough" leadership of the Islamic world. In order for Islam to become great again and re-establish the caliphate, the "secular" govts of Iraq, Pakistan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc - all had to be overthrown. So what do you do? Attack the US. If they don't respond, Islamic peoples will see the US is weak, and rise up to greatness. If the US does respond, Islamic peoples would unite against the common enemy and become great.

So from Al Qaeda's pov, they are losing in that 9/11 resulted in increased collaberation between the US and SA, Pakistan's intelligence agency, and a bunch more. To the extent that various people get together and call themselves 'Al Qaeda' and cause problems, Bin Laden enjoys a measure of success.

LM

Edited January 13, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon