Anti LDS and anti types and shadows in scripture (Long)

[Traveler]

From time to time as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints we encounter anti-LDS. I thought I would start this thread as a means of warning and clarification. To begin with I would like to point to scripture; in particular the gospel of John. John records several encounters between Jesus Christ and Scribes and Pharisees. I find these encounters to be very similar to methods used by modern day anti’s. Since from time to time a anti will appear in the forum I will summarize these ancient methods as the types and shadows of modern day anti-LDS:

. Often the encounter is begun by a question intended to entrap in order that they may accuse us (see John 8:3-6). The anti-LDS seek to ensnare and trap – not to enlighten or deliver. Such encounters are the result of preconceived planning with intended accusations planned for various responses.

. They have already judged us or categorized us (for example as non-Christians) based on information they manufacture before they even talk to us. (see John 7:49-51). In this example that the Scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of deceiving those that are not “expert” in the knowledge of the scriptures or law.

. They accuse us of not being Christian. This is the same as the Scribes and Pharisees calling Jesus a Samaritan (see John 8:48). Samaritans were the non-Jews of the time.

. The distortion of our doctrine and claim that it is blasphemous (see John 10:33). This is a most important example particular to a man becoming a g-d. Note how the Scribes and Pharisees twist the concept so that as it passes from them it is unbelievable.

In addition I would like to add some things I have seen over the years on the internet.

. Anti’s do not do research. This is apparent by the sources they claim for their information. For example they quote from the Journal of Discourses or from some long out of print manual. In all my life I have meet about 3 people that have actually read the Journal of Discourses. Most members have not read the volumes because it is a ton of stuff and would take most more than a year to read. If someone has done real research and studied “Mormonism” that extensively they are far beyond asking questions on the internet. The truth is their research is nothing more than a regurgitating of anti material and void of even considering the LDS point of view. It is not research into a religion when the point of view of that religion is not considered, and any conclusions based on such faulty research must be considered false.

. Answering an anti does no good to anyone. Anciently Jesus himself was not able to convince the Scribes and Pharisees of their errors through his teachings. I am convinced that one purpose of anti’s seeking an exchange is to create contention which will draw a Saint from the fold of G-d. So - DO NOT GET ANGRY!! With anti’s – do not respond if they are getting to you. I have been involved with the conversion of just one anti my entire life and it had nothing to do with anything I ever said. He was converted to what LDS did.

The Traveler

Edited December 30, 2008 by Traveler

[KristofferUmfrey]

I am interested in what you define as "anti" or anti-LDS behavior?

[Dr T]

U said the Samaritans were the "non-jews of the time." The Samaritans were a despised people.

[jolee65]

You know I have come across this a couple of time with family, co-workers and I have the same responce every time, thats ok you dont have to join or Sorry I dont explain to anyone why, when it comes to personal decisions.

religion is such a personal decision no one has the right to question you.

[Moksha]

They have already judged us or categorized us (for example as non-Christians)

A friend of mine, Bill, at Beliefnet gave a reponse that was the best I ever heard to such a charge:

"I hope you will take this point with you: You do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ nor have you demonstrated that you are, in fact, a Christian at all. I've read your Bible and nowhere does it mention the doctrine of the trinity. Your idea that Jesus is the same Father to which he prayed is either a contradiction or an absurdity when trying to understand Jesus's baptism ("This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased"), Jesus's distinction between blasphemy against different members of the Godhead, Jesus's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane ("Not my will but thine be done") and Jesus's LITERAL, PHYSICAL, RESURRECTION COMPLETE WITH SCARS AND LUNCH. If Jesus was with the father in the beginning, and if he sits on the right hand of God, it is absurd to come here and tell us that Jesus is God, and that the dual identity is just blue smoke and mirrors, or divine ventriloquism.

You want to know why YOU'RE not a real Christian? It's not because you're not a Mormon. Some of them aren't Christians either - but it's not because they're Mormons. Read the Sermon on the Mount. When that is your message and that is your life story, then you can tell me you're a Christian. I don't see anything there that says a true Christian is one who adopts the right metaphysical explanation. In Matthew 7 - IN THE BIBLE - it says Christ's followers are "they who do the will of my Father which is in heaven." If you're not clear about what that will is, try reading Matthew 5, 6 and 7. It is as lengthy as a video rental contract, and as detailed. Go through it carefully, then come back and tell me you're a Christian.

Tell me how you mourn with those who mourn.

Tell me how you're poor in spirit.

Tell me how you love your enemies and pray for those who mistreat you.

Tell me how you give to those who ask and pray to your Father for what you need.

Tell me how you go out of your way not to judge others.

Tell me how you are careful not to do your alms before men.

Tell me how you pray in secret.

Tell me how you go the extra mile.

Tell me how you have cut off the offending hand and cut out the offending eye.

Tell me how you have built your house upon the rock, not on some creed.

You have gotten lost in your theology. You have forgotten the message of Christ. You need to go back to your Bible and READ IT.

If you had done that to begin with, you wouldn't be judging Mormons."

I hope his well made points can be helpful.

:)

[rameumptom]

I've spent decades as an apologist now. I do not contend with antis, though I have been known to discuss concepts with them, when they are amenable to it. Why? It isn't so much to convert them, but to show the audience that we have a dog in this fight.

The Church has learned that if we sit too quietly, then only the other side is heard. Years ago, they discouraged too much discourse about the Church on the Internet. They asked that all ward and other websites close down. Many did. We ended up losing presence on the Internet, while the antis presence grew exponentially. Only last year did this change dramatically. We were encouraged to be a presence on the Internet, not to argue or fight, but to share our testimonies and our understanding. This is to be done in hopes of helping the honest in heart. Few of them will be found amongst the antis, but many will be found in the audiences. And those are the ones I'm hoping to influence with my witness.

[Traveler]

U said the Samaritans were the "non-jews of the time." The Samaritans were a despised people.

Despised is a rather mild word when one considers the attitide of the Jews towards the Samaritans. Just talking to a Samaritan would render a Jew unclean and unable to participate in the practice of their faith until they had been "clensed". A Samaritan was not allowed to worship with the Jews.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Correct. But Jesus broke "rules" all the time. :)

[JohnBirchSociety]

From time to time as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints we encounter anti-LDS. I thought I would start this thread as a means of warning and clarification. To begin with I would like to point to scripture; in particular the gospel of John. John records several encounters between Jesus Christ and Scribes and Pharisees. I find these encounters to be very similar to methods used by modern day anti’s. Since from time to time a anti will appear in the forum I will summarize these ancient methods as the types and shadows of modern day anti-LDS:

. Often the encounter is begun by a question intended to entrap in order that they may accuse us (see John 8:3-6). The anti-LDS seek to ensnare and trap – not to enlighten or deliver. Such encounters are the result of preconceived planning with intended accusations planned for various responses.

. They have already judged us or categorized us (for example as non-Christians) based on information they manufacture before they even talk to us. (see John 7:49-51). In this example that the Scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of deceiving those that are not “expert” in the knowledge of the scriptures or law.

. They accuse us of not being Christian. This is the same as the Scribes and Pharisees calling Jesus a Samaritan (see John 8:48). Samaritans were the non-Jews of the time.

. The distortion of our doctrine and claim that it is blasphemous (see John 10:33). This is a most important example particular to a man becoming a g-d. Note how the Scribes and Pharisees twist the concept so that as it passes from them it is unbelievable.

In addition I would like to add some things I have seen over the years on the internet.

. Anti’s do not do research. This is apparent by the sources they claim for their information. For example they quote from the Journal of Discourses or from some long out of print manual. In all my life I have meet about 3 people that have actually read the Journal of Discourses. Most members have not read the volumes because it is a ton of stuff and would take most more than a year to read. If someone has done real research and studied “Mormonism” that extensively they are far beyond asking questions on the internet. The truth is their research is nothing more than a regurgitating of anti material and void of even considering the LDS point of view. It is not research into a religion when the point of view of that religion is not considered, and any conclusions based on such faulty research must be considered false.

. Answering an anti does no good to anyone. Anciently Jesus himself was not able to convince the Scribes and Pharisees of their errors through his teachings. I am convinced that one purpose of anti’s seeking an exchange is to create contention which will draw a Saint from the fold of G-d. So - DO NOT GET ANGRY!! With anti’s – do not respond if they are getting to you. I have been involved with the conversion of just one anti my entire life and it had nothing to do with anything I ever said. He was converted to what LDS did.

The Traveler

I enjoyed your statements. Good food for thought.

I've thunk, and here's my two cents worth:

1) I don't use the term "anti-mormon" anymore. It is to cliche. To misused. The term that I've been using and think I can take credit for is "LDS Antagonist". Just my opinion / preference.

2) The LDS Antagonists do plan their encounters with us. They seek weakness, and they attack it. The sophistry of the attacks is increasing through the availability of the internet and the general information acquired by it.

3) Very few LDS are expert in Biblical Scholarship. We are, as a people, at a distinct disadvantage in that respect. There are LDS Antagonists that are known experts in the fields of Biblical Greek and Hebrew. We have a ton to learn from them.

4) In the Christian world we are a relatively late arrival on the scene. There is some credence to the LDS Antagonists claim that we are not Christian. I have had success in stating that we ARE NOT Christian in the historical, orthodox sense. We just have too much that does not agree with historical Christianity. Now, in the general sense of believing in Christ, we are Christian.

5) The diefication of man is blasphemous and unbilical. The LDS Antagonist is on solid ground on this. Furthermore, our instance upon an anthropomorphical GOD is absurd. This is an area where we are just wrong as a people.

6) It doesn't matter if you or I have read the JoD. It is a reliable record of the statements of early Church leaders, including the Prophets and Apostles in General Conference. So, our rather knee-jerk reaction of rejection of JoD quotes as "not doctrine" isn't very appropriate. Where I do see a problem with LDS Antagonists and the JoD is context. Many times there is a contextual problem with their approach. But, to recap, any statement, especially those of the Prophets that were made in public to gatherings of the Church are very important and authoritative.

7) With the advent of the internet, a lot of LDS Antagonists are very informed about our history and doctrine. And that frustrates a ton of LDS people. We, in my experience with decades of apologetics, are a terribly prepared and ignorant people about our own Church history and doctrinal teachings / developments.

Anyways, them's my cents...

[Traveler]

I enjoyed your statements. Good food for thought.

I've thunk, and here's my two cents worth:

.....

5) The diefication of man is blasphemous and unbilical. The LDS Antagonist is on solid ground on this. Furthermore, our instance upon an anthropomorphical GOD is absurd. This is an area where we are just wrong as a people.

.....

Anyways, them's my cents...

You do realize that this is why the Jews sought to have Jesus put to death - several times before they finally succeeded.

That man is intended to be as g-d is very Biblical - even from the "beginning"; which is my point. The Antagonist (as you call them) is given as a type and shadow in Biblical text.

The Traveler

[JohnBirchSociety]

You do realize that this is why the Jews sought to have Jesus put to death - several times before they finally succeeded.

That man is intended to be as g-d is very Biblical - even from the "beginning"; which is my point. The Antagonist (as you call them) is given as a type and shadow in Biblical text.

The Traveler

Jesus claimed to be the one GOD (He is). That was what enraged the Jews.

I've no problem with being like GOD, where possible. What we can never be is "GOD". There is only one GOD. We are created beings, GOD was not created, he is the creator.

[justamere10]

5) The diefication of man is blasphemous and unbilical. The LDS Antagonist is on solid ground on this. Furthermore, our instance upon an anthropomorphical GOD is absurd. This is an area where we are just wrong as a people.

Are you a beliver in the Trinity Doctrine then?

God, of course, is our Heavenly Father. We are made in His image and likeness. When He showed himself to Joseph Smith, with the resurrected Christ standing in the air beside Him, he looked exactly like Christ, a glorified resurrected exalted being.

That is the witness of the Latter-day Saints in our time, that God is not some shapeless incomprehensible force or something unexplainable with three persons including our Savior somehow crammed inside it.

No, God is our Parent. We have the potential to 'grow up' and become like Him!

[justamere10]

Answering an anti does no good to anyone. Anciently Jesus himself was not able to convince the Scribes and Pharisees of their errors through his teachings. I am convinced that one purpose of anti’s seeking an exchange is to create contention which will draw a Saint from the fold of G-d. So - DO NOT GET ANGRY!! With anti’s – do not respond if they are getting to you. I have been involved with the conversion of just one anti my entire life and it had nothing to do with anything I ever said. He was converted to what LDS did.

I have found in my work as a cyber missionary that it matters not what is slung at you or how vile, insulting, or mocking it is, it is an opportunity for the calm loving sincere teaching of a gospel principle to God's children who are not yet so blessed as we are.

Always at the bottom of their messages, cyber missionaries should include a signature or statement such as the following:

----

Find out where you came from, the purpose of life, and where you're going when you die.

Mormon.org - Home

Jesus Christ, The Son of God

Keep in mind that we are not writing for those who criticize us, we are writing for those who are reading, for the lurkers. Those who write mockingly are the antagonist, the loyal opposition, they bring in the crowds. They are necessary, they are the ones who create golden opportunities for us to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

On one board where I started an "Ask a Mormon" thread there were more than 4,000 posts and 75,000 views. On another board, it was really vile, totally unmoderated, but my Ask a Mormon thread got more than 25,000 views.

We don't really know how many lurkers will browse quietly at mormon.org where the Spirit can reach and teach them, or how many if any will be converted from our efforts. We know only that we are doing what Elder Ballard asked us to do, and that the worth of a single soul is priceless in the eyes of God. (How great shall be your joy... if even after 20 years service you might have brought only one soul to God.)

"Every member online a Cyber Missionary."

That's how I see it...

[justamere10]

A friend of mine, Bill, at Beliefnet gave a reponse that was the best I ever heard to such a charge: I hope his well made points can be helpful.

I took the liberty of making a few changes to your friend's great message. I hope you and he do not mind. (Let me know if you do and I'll delete this message.)

-------

So you say you are a Christian and I am not.

Read the Sermon on the Mount. When that is your message and that is your life story, then you can tell me you're a true Christian, a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. I don't see anything there that says a Christian is one who clings to a manufactured 4th century creed.

In Matthew 7 it says Christ's followers are "they who do the will of my Father which is in heaven." If you're not clear about what that will is, try reading Matthew 5, 6 and 7. Go through it carefully, then come back and tell me you're a Christian and Christ gave you the right to judge and label other followers of Jesus Christ non-Christian.

Tell me how you mourn with those who mourn.

Tell me how you're poor in spirit.

Tell me how you love your enemies and pray for those who mistreat you.

Tell me how you give to those who ask and pray to your Father for what you need.

Tell me how you go out of your way not to judge others.

Tell me how you are careful not to do your alms before men.

Tell me how you pray in secret.

Tell me how you go the extra mile.

Tell me how you have cut off the offending hand and cut out the offending eye.

Tell me how you have built your house upon the rock, not on some manmade creed.

You have gotten lost in your theology. You have forgotten the message of Christ. You need to go back to the Bible and actually READ IT. Add to that repentance and some humble and sincere prayer to find out if it's God who wants you to go around judging, excluding, and condemning those of His children who don't bow to the creeds and dictates of your religious denomination. You know, those of your brothers and sisters who humbly follow His Son.

The above is not copyrighted, feel free to pass it along to those people who have been deceived by their leaders into pridefully and arrogantly declaring that they are the only true Christians among God's children.

-----

.

Edited January 3, 2009 by justamere10

[jimuk]

Me, well i love "Anties" without them i fear that my faith may indeed relax somewhat lol.

Whenever i encounter an Antie, i feel blessed that heavenly father has sent this person along to strenghen my testimoney, and it works every time, for they are the complete opposite in their mission to what Jesus was like when he walked on gods earth and the love he showed to others. They are completely different also to our own missionaries who also show the love and kindness of Jesus, through their words and works, and dedication in what they offer to the world.

As for being a christian, who cares whether the world call you christian, you are not of this world. I have seen the works of lots of "Christians" around the world over the years, hundreds of years, most of it makes me sad, i have said before, where do we figure in the world once we are seen as Christians, do we become members of the "worlds council of churches", do we then have to listen to the heads of this so called council, do we not at times have problems listening to our very own leaders of "the church of Jesus christ of latter day saints".

So stop worrying about wether the world see's you as "Christian" today it really is not important, i for one would find this Label not so very nessasary.

You my brothers and sisters know how much you "ALL" Love Jesus, and how much he loves you. Being called a Christian by the world is not so important now is it.

God bless you all

Edited January 3, 2009 by jimuk

[justamere10]

So stop worrying about wether the world see's you as "Christian" today it really is not important, i for one would find this Label not so very nessasary. You my brothers and sisters know how much you "ALL" Love Jesus, and how much he loves you. Being called a Christian by the world is not so important now is it.

Personally I cherish the label "Christian" because to me the word represents a humble follower of Jesus Christ, which I strive daily to be.

What's written in the Book of Mormon is very important to me. I feel that I should claim and defend the label "Christian" because even the Nephites used that word for the Church of Jesus Christ in the Americas in their time. Why should it be different today? Why should we allow anyone else to pridefully take that away from us without challenge? It even impacts our baptismal covenants if we stand at ease in the face of such attacks.

"....so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—" Alma 46: 13

"And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come." Alma 46: 15

"Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored." Alma 46: 16

Alma 46

"And thus he was preparing to support their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of Christians." Alma 48: 10

Alma 48

Is "the cause of Christians" today only the cause of those who believe in the dictates of the 4th century Nicene councils?

I think it important for Latter-day Saints to boldly stand up for what we believe. Allowing people of other faiths to loudly label us unChristian gives them an opportunity to unite against a perceived 'enemy' and thus never have to give us anymore attention, never bother to look at what we really do and what we really have to say. They have been deceived about us by the leaders of their churches.

It's up to us to undeceive them...

That's how I see it.

[jimuk]

Personally I cherish the label "Christian" because to me the word represents a humble follower of Jesus Christ, which I strive daily to be.

What's written in the Book of Mormon is very important to me. I feel that I should claim and defend the label "Christian" because even the Nephites used that word for the Church of Jesus Christ in the Americas in their time. Why should it be different today? Why should we allow anyone else to pridefully take that away from us without challenge? It even impacts our baptismal covenants if we stand at ease in the face of such attacks.

"....so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—" Alma 46: 13

"And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come." Alma 46: 15

"Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored." Alma 46: 16

Alma 46

"And thus he was preparing to support their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of Christians." Alma 48: 10

Alma 48

Is "the cause of Christians" today only the cause of those who believe in the dictates of the 4th century Nicene councils?

I think it important for Latter-day Saints to boldly stand up for what we believe. Allowing people of other faiths to loudly label us unChristian gives them an opportunity to unite against a perceived 'enemy' and thus never have to give us anymore attention, never bother to look at what we really do and what we really have to say. They have been deceived about us by the leaders of their churches.

It's up to us to undeceive them...

That's how I see it.

Hi justamere10, I am not doubting the meaning of the word "Christian" just that looking back over the many years that it has been used, i am not to sure if (to myself) it is an appropriate label nowadays, for we are told by the world that we are not christian.

Let me be bold as to ask this of you justamere10, do you want the world to see you as a Christian, or are you happy just knowing that you are a Christian.

[justamere10]

Hi justamere10, I am not doubting the meaning of the word "Christian" just that looking back over the many years that it has been used, i am not to sure if (to myself) it is an appropriate label nowadays, for we are told by the world that we are not christian.

Let me be bold as to ask this of you justamere10, do you want the world to see you as a Christian, or are you happy just knowing that you are a Christian.

We are not of the world. We should not allow the world to define our relationship with Christ unchallenged. We KNOW that we are Christians!

I am happy to be a Christian. I think it my duty to defend the cause of Christians on my watch.

I think that today is a critical day of "sifting". People are making choices that move them to the right hand or the left hand of the Savior; make them sheep or goats, wheat or tares. Left standing during the Millennium will be only those who by their choices have demonstrated righteousness to at least the level that qualifies for a Terrestrial glory. I think that all Christian churches help lift God's children from a state of telestial wickedness to a state where they will not be burned at the possibly imminent coming in glory of our Savior.

In that task of helping prepare people for the Millennium, Latter-day Saints are not alone. It is a perilous time when all Christians in my opinion should be united.

As Latter-day Saints we have the fulness of the gospel. It is our duty to lead out in the service of Christ. That will be more difficult if we allow ourselves to be labelled unChristian don't you think?

[jimuk]

Thank you justamere10, i understand where you are coming from. I do know that the church is 100% a Christian church as is its members, But i do not care that the rest of the denominations see us as non christian.

Thanks

[Guest Godless]

Great observations. I just have a few notes.

[. They have already judged us or categorized us (for example as non-Christians) based on information they manufacture before they even talk to us. (see John 7:49-51). In this example that the Scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of deceiving those that are not “expert” in the knowledge of the scriptures or law.

. They accuse us of not being Christian. This is the same as the Scribes and Pharisees calling Jesus a Samaritan (see John 8:48). Samaritans were the non-Jews of the time.

You call yourself a Christian. In my honest opinion, no one has the right to take that away from you. I considered myself a Christian when I was an active member of the LDS church. Please understand, however, that LDS doctrine comes off as very foreign and un-Christian to those who have never been in the Church and even to many of those, like myself, who left the Church and began studying Nicene Christianity. As an outside observer, I no longer consider Mormonism to be Christian because it's so vastly different from the doctrines and teachings of other Christian churches. However, I won't dispute your right to call yourself Christians because you do indeed believe in Jesus Christ and do your best to follow his teachings. I suppose it all comes down to definitions and perceptions. In any case, I wouldn't automatically assume that those who say you aren't Christians are trying to attack your beliefs or antagonize you, though I have no doubt that that is often the case. Don't forget, the basis for a good discussion is the ability to see things from both sides of the table.

. Anti’s do not do research. This is apparent by the sources they claim for their information. For example they quote from the Journal of Discourses or from some long out of print manual. In all my life I have meet about 3 people that have actually read the Journal of Discourses. Most members have not read the volumes because it is a ton of stuff and would take most more than a year to read. If someone has done real research and studied “Mormonism” that extensively they are far beyond asking questions on the internet. The truth is their research is nothing more than a regurgitating of anti material and void of even considering the LDS point of view. It is not research into a religion when the point of view of that religion is not considered, and any conclusions based on such faulty research must be considered false.

Keep in mind that a good number of antis are former members, some of them formerly quite active and devout. Hence, some of them may actually know what they're talking about. However, many of them are most likely just blowing smoke out their rear. I think doing research is a good idea for both sides so that an intelligent dialogue may be had.

Personally, I've never put much stock into the claims of antis regarding Church history and the JoD. I have no doubt that at least some of it may be true, but I see no relevence for that sort of knowledge in my post-LDS life. As an active member though, it may not be a bad idea for you to follow up on some of these things. If you truly believe that their claims are wrong, prove it to them. Do the research that they may or may not have done and you may just learn something yourself.

[Mormonatalie]

From time to time as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints we encounter anti-LDS. I thought I would start this thread as a means of warning and clarification. To begin with I would like to point to scripture; in particular the gospel of John. John records several encounters between Jesus Christ and Scribes and Pharisees. I find these encounters to be very similar to methods used by modern day anti’s. Since from time to time a anti will appear in the forum I will summarize these ancient methods as the types and shadows of modern day anti-LDS:

. Often the encounter is begun by a question intended to entrap in order that they may accuse us (see John 8:3-6). The anti-LDS seek to ensnare and trap – not to enlighten or deliver. Such encounters are the result of preconceived planning with intended accusations planned for various responses.

. They have already judged us or categorized us (for example as non-Christians) based on information they manufacture before they even talk to us. (see John 7:49-51). In this example that the Scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of deceiving those that are not “expert” in the knowledge of the scriptures or law.

. They accuse us of not being Christian. This is the same as the Scribes and Pharisees calling Jesus a Samaritan (see John 8:48). Samaritans were the non-Jews of the time.

. The distortion of our doctrine and claim that it is blasphemous (see John 10:33). This is a most important example particular to a man becoming a g-d. Note how the Scribes and Pharisees twist the concept so that as it passes from them it is unbelievable.

In addition I would like to add some things I have seen over the years on the internet.

. Anti’s do not do research. This is apparent by the sources they claim for their information. For example they quote from the Journal of Discourses or from some long out of print manual. In all my life I have meet about 3 people that have actually read the Journal of Discourses. Most members have not read the volumes because it is a ton of stuff and would take most more than a year to read. If someone has done real research and studied “Mormonism” that extensively they are far beyond asking questions on the internet. The truth is their research is nothing more than a regurgitating of anti material and void of even considering the LDS point of view. It is not research into a religion when the point of view of that religion is not considered, and any conclusions based on such faulty research must be considered false.

. Answering an anti does no good to anyone. Anciently Jesus himself was not able to convince the Scribes and Pharisees of their errors through his teachings. I am convinced that one purpose of anti’s seeking an exchange is to create contention which will draw a Saint from the fold of G-d. So - DO NOT GET ANGRY!! With anti’s – do not respond if they are getting to you. I have been involved with the conversion of just one anti my entire life and it had nothing to do with anything I ever said. He was converted to what LDS did.

The Traveler

He [Adam] was the person who brought the animals and the seeds from other planets to this world.... You may read and believe what you please as to what is found written in the Bible. Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth.

Author: Brigham Young

Source: Journal Of Discourses

Volume: 3

Chapter: 2

Page: 319

[justamere10]

Personally, I've never put much stock into the claims of antis regarding Church history and the JoD. I have no doubt that at least some of it may be true, but I see no relevence for that sort of knowledge in my post-LDS life. As an active member though, it may not be a bad idea for you to follow up on some of these things. If you truly believe that their claims are wrong, prove it to them. Do the research that they may or may not have done and you may just learn something yourself.

We do of course have such resources as LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage where probably every criticism about our beliefs that is circulating on the internet has already been addressed by LDS scholars.

[justamere10]

He [Adam] was the person who brought the animals and the seeds from other planets to this world.... You may read and believe what you please as to what is found written in the Bible. Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth.

The Journal of Discourses of course is not in our canon and we are not bound to it. It's interesting that critics and outright anti-Mormons always seem to know more about those writings than do active Saints. (At least the 'juicy' tidbits that taken out of context work towards deceiving others about our beliefs.)

Could it be because our testimonies are not based on the study of books other than our canon?

But welcome to this board.

Edited January 3, 2009 by justamere10

[Maya]

I've spent decades as an apologist now. I do not contend with antis, though I have been known to discuss concepts with them, when they are amenable to it. Why? It isn't so much to convert them, but to show the audience that we have a dog in this fight.

The Church has learned that if we sit too quietly, then only the other side is heard. Years ago, they discouraged too much discourse about the Church on the Internet. They asked that all ward and other websites close down. Many did. We ended up losing presence on the Internet, while the antis presence grew exponentially. Only last year did this change dramatically. We were encouraged to be a presence on the Internet, not to argue or fight, but to share our testimonies and our understanding. This is to be done in hopes of helping the honest in heart. Few of them will be found amongst the antis, but many will be found in the audiences. And those are the ones I'm hoping to influence with my witness.

YES.. could someone kick a bit speed to the Nord.. They are still giving you THE looks if you talk about beeing on internet and they talk about spreading wrong info (hey I am human! And I hope you are too!)

Thanks to MGF and Heather we have now in Finland our OWN FINNISH LDS.net board!!! As I was transfered... even my name was transferedM:eek: from FAIR board here (I am not too scolastic ) so after a while I told Heather about the problems on the Finnish internett. If you asked with Mormonit name you get 3 GOOD sides on the google on 6 pages, everythig else IS ops WAS anti! (in Norway the numbers were the other way around 3 bad in 6 pages...) I also told about this terrible netside, where I have been since 2000... anyway Heather was so nice to start a forum for the finnish in this forum! That was sooo cool! Now we could tell people to get over here to find out, to learn. Many has been reading it in these few months, but not too many have registered. For some the language was a barrier and for some the barrier is just that IF they register then we LDS get their name and.... hahaha (like what could we do). Anyway Early Dec. Heather gave me the possibility to go on a site to translate the site.... AND NOW 1.1 2009 o.oo Finnish (about) Hether sat up the REAL Finnish forum!

It is sooo good to be able to really talk about our religion in peace! It was good to be in the LDS.net too. A bit lot to scroll but anyway we had our own forum! And now no one can excuse themselves if the dont register!

I see many good things about having this finnish forum: 1, There is a forum where the discusition about LDS is respectful and information as correct as the people there can come with with links. 2, It may be a good strengthening place for members. 3, It allows people to ask questions without beeing indentified right away. Even though Finland IS a small country and we have ONLY 4000 members... but HEY we are GROWING (I hope and pray) 4, People may just surf in when looking for a nice place and they may even stay.

I have one nonmember a very nice young lady doing homestorage and prepaerdness which she is very interested in. Also I have T.S a newly babtised member who is really strong after beeing on the bad forum for a few years. He is ossom! And I have a few solid strong members and one from stake too who are willing to help when needed.

I know it may take a few years to really get this going, but at least we got it going now.

I wish I could get those peopel out of the bad forum to ours. There I have met antiaccusitions since I become a member. Luckily it has become better, we are not called with animal names any more so often.

I know there are a couple of anties, who keep on with the same over and over again... you can almost tell that now we have not talked about... pluralmarriage for a month, so it will soon come again. In that forum you do not need to register neither it has any mods... so you can think what it is like.

We all try not to get involved in an arguments. Usually I just link to a Curchsite or just write the truth and dont talk with that person any more. I know we have 2-3 on that bad site, who are now investigating. Anytime someone is a bit positive thowards us and ask a honest question that person is put down really hard.

They sure try to find where it might hurt (and they do it for... love?). It is pretty ridiculous as they belive we are there all the time and if you have not been reading, they may come with a new thread about same thing they asked you long ago that you missed. They write it in a way, they believe will hurt you and if you dont answer to that rediculous thread they put it again in a wordform that means that you dont dare and they won and when you fanally get there ... I just say. Oh I am so sorry I been a bit busy lately and I put a link to a suitanble Churchsite.

One of CMs asked me to come over to an other better forum... I did and I answered many questions. But looks like they are thinking of throwing us out of there. We do not preach we do not do anything but answer questions or other threads. Now I told them that if they want to ask they should come to Mormonismi (btw just dont put net at the end or you get to the other side)

I just got the book the Gainsayers... interesting.

I also got a hint about making a familysite in Finnish... that will be the next step... and links to the finnish forum ofcourse!

So all we need now is people who are willing to sighn in and write!

Sorry it got a bit long A subject I could talk a long time...

[rameumptom]

I enjoyed your statements. Good food for thought.

I've thunk, and here's my two cents worth:

1) I don't use the term "anti-mormon" anymore. It is to cliche. To misused. The term that I've been using and think I can take credit for is "LDS Antagonist". Just my opinion / preference.

Ram: I still use it, but only where it aptly applies. For example, I do not consider Dan Vogel an anti-Mormon.

2) The LDS Antagonists do plan their encounters with us. They seek weakness, and they attack it. The sophistry of the attacks is increasing through the availability of the internet and the general information acquired by it.

Ram: But most of their attacks are old attacks. Some are even from the mid-19th century, and have long been disproven.

3) Very few LDS are expert in Biblical Scholarship. We are, as a people, at a distinct disadvantage in that respect. There are LDS Antagonists that are known experts in the fields of Biblical Greek and Hebrew. We have a ton to learn from them.

Ram: Most members do not need to be experts. They do need to know where the resources are to refer people to, such as fairlds.org

The reality is, most of the antis, or anti-wannabes, also are not biblical scholars. You will see that most of the attacks given here and at fairlds.org are mostly just people copying from a website. John Tvedtnes wrote an article available at FAIR discussing, among other things, how poorly done the research has been from the anti-Mormon side of things.

4) In the Christian world we are a relatively late arrival on the scene. There is some credence to the LDS Antagonists claim that we are not Christian. I have had success in stating that we ARE NOT Christian in the historical, orthodox sense. We just have too much that does not agree with historical Christianity. Now, in the general sense of believing in Christ, we are Christian.

Ram: I would agree that we are not Christian in the traditional sense. Historically, we are very much Christian, as our views were believed prior to the Nicene Council. To say that we are new on the scene is like stating that Jesus was new on the Jewish Messianic scene in 30AD. After all, several others had claimed already to be the Messiah by the time he arrived. Those who really DO study early Christianity, must admit that our views on the Godhead, temple, baptism, priesthood, etc., are all very much historical. It is only when a cursory glance is done, and history ignored, that one sees otherwise. Scholar Harold Bloom stated that many in the current Southern Baptist Convention are ignorant, as they take a few verses and build a religion around it, meanwhile he was amazed at how many things Joseph Smith got right in his modern/ancient religion.

5) The diefication of man is blasphemous and unbilical. The LDS Antagonist is on solid ground on this. Furthermore, our instance upon an anthropomorphical GOD is absurd. This is an area where we are just wrong as a people.

Ram: Here we definitely part ways. Early Judaism AND Christianity agreed with the deification of man. It wasn't until Hellenistic ideas created a broach between man and God that things went south. God IS anthropomorphic, and the early Jews and Christians believed it. Try studying some current writings from anthropologists AND Biblical scholars and you'll see that is the case.

One of the problems is that most Christianity believe God is of other substance than us, and so we cannot become as God is. The Lord revealed to Joseph Smith that we are literally the spirit children of God, of the same substance, and therefore can become as He is. Paul wrote of deification, saying we are "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ", and John stated that Christ makes us "kings and priests unto God and His Father" (Rev 1:5-6) to sit on God's throne with him and reign. That is the Mormon definition of deification. If others have a different definition, it should not be imposed upon us, as this is our view.

And it is very Biblical, regardless of whether you accept it or not. Personally, I want all of God's truth, not a watered-down version.

6) It doesn't matter if you or I have read the JoD. It is a reliable record of the statements of early Church leaders, including the Prophets and Apostles in General Conference. So, our rather knee-jerk reaction of rejection of JoD quotes as "not doctrine" isn't very appropriate. Where I do see a problem with LDS Antagonists and the JoD is context. Many times there is a contextual problem with their approach. But, to recap, any statement, especially those of the Prophets that were made in public to gatherings of the Church are very important and authoritative.

Ram: The JoD is a reliable record, but not all of it is doctrine. Why? Because doctrine is described as things that the Church currently teaches us is doctrine. The reality is, most of the JoD agrees with our modern prophet's teachings, and so would be good to use. The problem is that the antis use outliers and teachings we no longer believe, and then attempt to impose them on the current Church. It would be like me taking a statement from a 19th century, or even 1950s Southern Baptist minister supporting

slavery/racism, and imputing it upon Southern Baptists today.

7) With the advent of the internet, a lot of LDS Antagonists are very informed about our history and doctrine. And that frustrates a ton of LDS people. We, in my experience with decades of apologetics, are a terribly prepared and ignorant people about our own Church history and doctrinal teachings / developments.

Ram: This is not true. Very few of them are. The majority of people get a few glances at the strangest or darkest events in Mormon history, but not the whole thing. Many anti-sites will tell about MMM, Joseph Smith's polygamy, etc., but ignore telling about the trials many Christian ministers and their followers imposed upon Mormons: including expulsion from several states, murder, rape, etc. There is no balance on most websites, showing both the good and bad of Joseph Smith.

For example, 1-1/2 years ago, the Baptists sent out a mass mailing of the DVD Joseph Smith/Jesus Christ. They used a friendly approach to show you could either worship Christ or Smith, but not both. The forced dichotomy is noted by scholars, but would be missed by those who believe that good Christian ministers would not lead them astray.