When Jesus Comes

[Traveler]

I am taking an informal survey. What is the final sign that you as a Christian are looking for that will convince you that Jesus has returned? Please indicate what it is that convinces you, a short explanation of why and your Christian affiliation.

I am aware that many, like doubting Thomas, do not have faith enough except they feel the prints in his side, hands and feet. For you and the rest of you, if you would please indicate what you are looking forward to. If you do not know of a sign or have not thought about it or do not think there will be a sign – please indicate your opinion and why. In general how will you know Jesus (not an imposter as prophesied) has come again to live among mankind?

The Traveler

[Setheus]

I believe that when the Son of Man returns we will not have a choice but to know that He is returned. Every knee will bow and Every tongue confess.

Our agency aside, he isn't going to be comming to test our faith. He will be comming in all of His glory. So, how will I know? I will know when I find myself giving praises to the Most High God!

[Blessed]

I believe the time is later than we think... meaning His coming is very close. I hold to the Scriptures that give an "idea" of when He will return... and we are seeing stages of that now. (Thinking of prophesied scriptures in Isaiah, Revelations, and D&C.)

No one knows the hour or the day and it wouldn't matter if we had the day and time... I still don't think we would be prepared. God forgive us for being so self-centered.

Hint: Keep your eyes to the East!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler@ Dec 1 2004, 06:28 AM

What is the final sign that you as a Christian are looking for that will convince you that Jesus has returned? Please indicate what it is that convinces you, a short explanation of why and your Christian affiliation.

The final sign? Hmm. I’m not sure what the final sign will be, but one of the signs near the moment before I would absolutely know that Jesus had returned would be the moment of seeing the veil over the Earth rolled back as a scroll and the host of heaven coming back with Him. If I’m living on the Earth at that time, I suppose it will be the moment when I see the righteous called up to meet Him in the clouds and the wicked removed from the Earth.

I guess the reason why I would know that He was Jesus would be because I would think that being called into the clouds to meet a glorious being, or being banished from the Earth by a glorious being, would be a pretty good sign that the person who has come is none other than Jesus, because that is what will happen and what is supposed to happen when He returns immediately prior to His millennial reign. And in case you don't know it, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I am aware that many, like doubting Thomas, do not have faith enough except they feel the prints in his side, hands and feet. For you and the rest of you, if you would please indicate what you are looking forward to.

I’m looking forward to living under the righteousness leadership of my Lord and Savior. I know I’m going to keep on living, and I want to be living under the best circumstances possible.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Blessed@Dec 1 2004, 04:10 PM

Hint: Keep your eyes to the East!

The problem, of course, is that the world is round, which the Biblical prophets didn't know. If Christ is coming down from what appears as the eastern sky in, say, Missouri, then He will appear to be coming from the west to a person in India.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Dec 1 2004, 07:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Dec 1 2004, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Blessed@Dec 1 2004, 04:10 PM

Hint: Keep your eyes to the East! 

The problem, of course, is that the world is round, which the Biblical prophets didn't know. If Christ is coming down from what appears as the eastern sky in, say, Missouri, then He will appear to be coming from the west to a person in India.

Matthew 24:27 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Jenda+Dec 1 2004, 07:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Dec 1 2004, 07:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Dec 1 2004, 07:19 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Blessed@Dec 1 2004, 04:10 PM

Hint: Keep your eyes to the East! 

The problem, of course, is that the world is round, which the Biblical prophets didn't know. If Christ is coming down from what appears as the eastern sky in, say, Missouri, then He will appear to be coming from the west to a person in India.

Matthew 24:27 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

I can think of two possible conclusions to draw from that scripture:

1. Matthew thought the earth was flat. (He hadn't read his Aristarchus.)

Or:

2. Christ will come to the earth directly from the sun.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Dec 1 2004, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Dec 1 2004, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Dec 1 2004, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Dec 1 2004, 07:19 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Blessed@Dec 1 2004, 04:10 PM

Hint: Keep your eyes to the East! 

The problem, of course, is that the world is round, which the Biblical prophets didn't know. If Christ is coming down from what appears as the eastern sky in, say, Missouri, then He will appear to be coming from the west to a person in India.

Matthew 24:27 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

I can think of two possible conclusions to draw from that scripture:

1. Matthew thought the earth was flat. (He hadn't read his Aristarchus.)

Or:

2. Christ will come to the earth directly from the sun.

I think it means that He will descend to Zion in Israel (Jerusalem), and then he will descend to Zion in America (Independence, MO).

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Setheus@Dec 1 2004, 04:52 PM

I believe that when the Son of Man returns we will not have a choice but to know that He is returned. Every knee will bow and Every tongue confess.

Our agency aside, he isn't going to be comming to test our faith. He will be comming in all of His glory. So, how will I know? I will know when I find myself giving praises to the Most High God!

Yes! You said this perfectly.

[Traveler]

When I was a young buck there was a mediator that flashed across the sky just after sundown. It was quite bright and the street lights went out and the impact was in Nevada. For about an hour there was general panic while many thought it was the end of the world.

I have been writing an novel that uses that experience and a rather strange event that occurred when we were testing the B1 bomber. It is a Science Fiction and concerns an event that is possibly caused by extra terrestrials that many take for the second coming.

Anyway I thought I would ask to see what people expect.

The Traveler

[Lindy]

I guess what I expect is what I was told as a child....and what I believe as an adult.....that the stars would go out (or fall from the sky) and the sun would be darkened and the moon will not shine, and in the midst of the darkness a trumpet will be heard and Christ will be seen asending from the clouds in light and glory.

When I see Him in the sky, I will know that He is here. I will still heed the warnings of the false Christ's and false prophets who want us to believe that He is here. So yes, I will be looking for signs of the second coming in the sky, not in a grilled cheese sandwich

Matthew 24 says a lot:

Matt. 24: 23-31

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

The answer for me would be trumpet and seeing the Son coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Simple and to the point.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda+Dec 1 2004, 08:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Dec 1 2004, 08:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Dec 1 2004, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Dec 1 2004, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Dec 1 2004, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by -Blessed@Dec 1 2004, 04:10 PM

Hint: Keep your eyes to the East! 

The problem, of course, is that the world is round, which the Biblical prophets didn't know. If Christ is coming down from what appears as the eastern sky in, say, Missouri, then He will appear to be coming from the west to a person in India.

Matthew 24:27 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

I can think of two possible conclusions to draw from that scripture:

1. Matthew thought the earth was flat. (He hadn't read his Aristarchus.)

Or:

2. Christ will come to the earth directly from the sun.

I think it means that He will descend to Zion in Israel (Jerusalem), and then he will descend to Zion in America (Independence, MO).

Do you mean to say that you think that our Lord’s return, the return immediately prior to His millennial reign, will be on 2 different occasions… once for the people in the East and again for the people in the West? That’s an interesting idea, and I see no reason to believe it cannot be true.

<!--QuoteBegin--lindy9556@ Dec 2 2004, 12:33 AM

I guess what I expect is what I was told as a child....and what I believe as an adult.....that the stars would go out (or fall from the sky) and the sun would be darkened and the moon will not shine, and in the midst of the darkness a trumpet will be heard and Christ will be seen descending from the clouds in light and glory.

When I see Him in the sky, I will know that He is here… The answer for me would be [hearing the] trumpet and seeing the Son coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  Simple and to the point.

Well said, lindy, and I agree. :)

[Lindy]

thanks Ray :)

[Guest curvette]

After reading the descriptions of the events that precede the second coming (especially the D&C verses) I'm pretty sure I hope I'm not even around at that time.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Dec 1 2004, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Dec 1 2004, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Dec 1 2004, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Dec 1 2004, 07:19 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Blessed@Dec 1 2004, 04:10 PM

Hint: Keep your eyes to the East! 

The problem, of course, is that the world is round, which the Biblical prophets didn't know. If Christ is coming down from what appears as the eastern sky in, say, Missouri, then He will appear to be coming from the west to a person in India.

Matthew 24:27 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

I can think of two possible conclusions to draw from that scripture:

1. Matthew thought the earth was flat. (He hadn't read his Aristarchus.)

Or:

2. Christ will come to the earth directly from the sun.

or, He will come from the east (relative to Isrial) and not let the people behind him (those to the west) and make his presense known as he travels east bound around the planet until at last those to the direct west of Isrial know he has returned. Sort of like superman going around the planet.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette@Dec 2 2004, 10:34 AM

After reading the descriptions of the events that precede the second coming (especially the D&C verses) I'm pretty sure I hope I'm not even around at that time.

Why? Are you afraid of heights?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Setheus+Dec 2 2004, 01:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Dec 2 2004, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Dec 1 2004, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Dec 1 2004, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Dec 1 2004, 07:19 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Blessed@Dec 1 2004, 04:10 PM

Hint: Keep your eyes to the East! 

The problem, of course, is that the world is round, which the Biblical prophets didn't know. If Christ is coming down from what appears as the eastern sky in, say, Missouri, then He will appear to be coming from the west to a person in India.

Matthew 24:27 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

I can think of two possible conclusions to draw from that scripture:

1. Matthew thought the earth was flat. (He hadn't read his Aristarchus.)

Or:

2. Christ will come to the earth directly from the sun.

or, He will come from the east (relative to Isrial) and not let the people behind him (those to the west) and make his presense known as he travels east bound around the planet until at last those to the direct west of Isrial know he has returned. Sort of like superman going around the planet.

That's pretty much the only way Christ could be seen by everyone to be coming out of the east.

Of course, for him to be seen in the eastern sky by everyone, if he were to touch down in Israel on the same day himwere first seen descending from the eastern sky, he'd have to jump up into the clouds again after a little while and fly westward around the world so everyone would see him there, possibly touching down again at regular intervals (Jackson County, Salt Lake, Newport Beach, etc.)

[Traveler]

Just a quick note: I do not believe Matthew though the earth was flat. If he had access to the scriptures found among the Dead Sea Scrolls he would have known better. The early Trinitarians believed the earth to be flat and found a way to interpret the scriptures to support this belief. It is this method of interpretation of things that has many in the Christian world confused concerning science and religion. I would also point out the Trinitarians have confused many things based on their interpretations of scripture.

The Traveler

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 2 2004, 01:22 PM

Why? Are you afraid of heights?

No. I'm afraid of war, and people dying everywhere, and earthquakes in diverse places, and two prophets lying in the streets of Jerusalem dead for several days, and the moon turning to blood, and famine, and pestilence, and the love of men waxing cold (especially this one), and blood, and fires and vapors of smoke. (oh, and short days)

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 2 2004, 05:04 PM

Just a quick note: I do not believe Matthew though the earth was flat. If he had access to the scriptures found among the Dead Sea Scrolls he would have known better. The early Trinitarians believed the earth to be flat and found a way to interpret the scriptures to support this belief. It is this method of interpretation of things that has many in the Christian world confused concerning science and religion. I would also point out the Trinitarians have confused many things based on their interpretations of scripture.

The Traveler

Interesting. What is it in the Dead Sea Scrolls that suggests their writers knew the earth was round?

I'm thinking of the passage in Isaiah where it talks about the earth being rolled together like a scroll at the end of the world. A scroll is flat; ergo, Isaiah thought the world was flat. I don't see how "Trinitarians" would have needed to "interpret" this language to derive its meaning; you'd have to seriously wrest it to give it any other.

[speedomansam]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Dec 2 2004, 08:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Dec 2 2004, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Dec 2 2004, 05:04 PM

Just a quick note:  I do not believe Matthew though the earth was flat.  If he had access to the scriptures found among the Dead Sea Scrolls he would have known better.  The early Trinitarians believed the earth to be flat and found a way to interpret the scriptures to support this belief.  It is this method of interpretation of things that has many in the Christian world confused concerning science and religion.  I would also point out the Trinitarians have confused many things based on their interpretations of scripture. 

The Traveler

Interesting. What is it in the Dead Sea Scrolls that suggests their writers knew the earth was round?

I'm thinking of the passage in Isaiah where it talks about the earth being rolled together like a scroll at the end of the world. A scroll is flat; ergo, Isaiah thought the world was flat. I don't see how "Trinitarians" would have needed to "interpret" this language to derive its meaning; you'd have to seriously wrest it to give it any other.

prophets speak the word of God through inspiration. just because Isaiah was inspired to use some amazing imagery of the earth being rolled together like a scroll (which could mean a variety of things like all the continents merging together like they were before they were split) doesn't mean Isaiah thought the world was flat.

plus, since it seems that many prophets were shown all of God's creations, i'll bet Isaiah was given the universe tour too.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by curvette+Dec 2 2004, 08:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Dec 2 2004, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Dec 2 2004, 01:22 PM

Why?  Are you afraid of heights?

No. I'm afraid of war, and people dying everywhere, and earthquakes in diverse places, and two prophets lying in the streets of Jerusalem dead for several days, and the moon turning to blood, and famine, and pestilence, and the love of men waxing cold (especially this one), and blood, and fires and vapors of smoke. (oh, and short days)

Come on, Curvette. Just those little things?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Dec 2 2004, 07:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Dec 2 2004, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Dec 2 2004, 05:04 PM

Just a quick note:  I do not believe Matthew though the earth was flat.  If he had access to the scriptures found among the Dead Sea Scrolls he would have known better.  The early Trinitarians believed the earth to be flat and found a way to interpret the scriptures to support this belief.  It is this method of interpretation of things that has many in the Christian world confused concerning science and religion.  I would also point out the Trinitarians have confused many things based on their interpretations of scripture. 

The Traveler

Interesting. What is it in the Dead Sea Scrolls that suggests their writers knew the earth was round?

I'm thinking of the passage in Isaiah where it talks about the earth being rolled together like a scroll at the end of the world. A scroll is flat; ergo, Isaiah thought the world was flat. I don't see how "Trinitarians" would have needed to "interpret" this language to derive its meaning; you'd have to seriously wrest it to give it any other.

From writing among the Dead Sea Scrolls there are a number of documents that deal with very accurate calendars. In addition they had the ability to predict solar and lunar eclipse, tildes and other such things. This does not happen in a flat earth center of the universe contrived by the Trinitarians. In general historians agree that the rift between science and religion was well established when Galileo tried to publish a book of tides to make sea travel safer and more predictable. Truth Trinitarians were willing to kill (innocent lives) in order to prevent knowledge from being known among the populist. This is why the traditional Trinitarian Christian period of political and social dominance in power is known as the Dark Ages. In reality the concept of a flat earth was devolution of knowledge during a time that human knowledge suffered an era of incredible darkness.

The Traveler

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Dec 3 2004, 05:04 AM

Come on, Curvette. Just those little things?

I know. I'm a wimp...

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 3 2004, 08:55 AM

This is why the traditional Trinitarian Christian period of political and social dominance in power is known as the Dark Ages.

Oh! Silly me... I thought the "Dark ages" was a term coined by historians to represent the period immediately following the collapse of the Roman empire when Europe was plunged into a very unsafe, unstable anarchy and the people were struggling so hard to survive that education was not available to most. I didn't realize that it was a religous conspiracy.