Elgama Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) IThis, however, is your personal interpretation.yup it is I wonder... if we all lived back in, say, Roman times, the time of Christ, maybe before, when clothing was viewed not as a way to keep from being naked and embarrassed, but as a luxury, a protection from the elements. Many people could afford only rags, and things such as leather (animal skin) was only for the very rich indeed. I wonder if we might look at this same passage of scripture and think: Obviously, God loved them and wanted them to be warm and comfortable once they were out of The Gardenhmm Adam and Eve hid because they were cold? And you are trying to tell me that Heavenly Father or the Saviour just went along with Satan for the fun of it? I am not a huge fan of the study of logic, I am not uneducated just don't see the point in using human logic to understand scripture, for me only prayer and the Holy Ghost can do that.So, anywhoo, this is a long way away from dance leotards where this topic began, but I've enjoyed it anyhow. For the record, I like clothing, and when my kids wanna start wearing them, they will. But their mummy and daddy are not about to force them to put them on because culture and society tells us it's not right for them to be without.eI prefer to do my own thinking, and let them do the same, instead of conforming blindly to the wants of society My views have little to do with society and more to do with my religious beliefs. Brought on particularly by this years Ensign, Conference and changes in the YW theme, and its not removed from the leotards, as the question raised by it is modesty. I am not expecting you to hold the same views, but I think to say your friend's issues are due to society is very wrong as society seems to say little girls dressing immodestly without good reason is normal-Charley Edited January 28, 2009 by Elgama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) Question: Does anyone else out there teach their kids that immodesty is acceptable with their spouses? LM Edited January 28, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I find it somewhat interesting reading through these posts. We can judge the BYU dance team for their perceived immodest costumes..but okay to have family members parade around each other without clothes. I guess I'm having a hard time with this being an LDS website and some of the ideas. I was taught that we should always be modest. They didn't teach me only be modest in public. But at home as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Having said that I would recommend you do a search at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the word "Modesty" and read what the Prophets and General Authorities have taught us about our responsibility to teach modesty in the home.applepansy:)Applepansy, I can't blame you for not having read everything in this very-long thread, but if you look back... somewhere, you will see that I shared earlier that I have already dug to the very inner depths of lds-dot-org looking for every quote and passage I can find on modesty and clothing. In my humble opinion, they all come down to this: When you are dressed, dress modestly. Not only have I found nothing with which I disagree, I also found nothing which tells me our chosen life style is wrong.If, however, you know of a quote that I missed, then please do share!!! I admit it's possible that I missed something. Please know that I am not interested in a vague quote on modesty followed up by your opinion and your conclusion... but I would be interested in a quote from a church leader which says, in a nut shell, "After a certain age, children should no longer be nude at home." Or, "After a certain age, children should no longer see their parents naked."I have looked for such quotes, and trust me, they ain't there!!! You want to know why I think they are not there? Because the LDS church is a multi-national, multi-cultural church, and while in North America many of you think it's wrong for kids to be naked at home and for kids and parents to share bathrooms at the same time, in most other cultures, this is absolutely normal.Janice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 When I go to an exercise class its in modest attire I can wear my garments withYou work out in your garments? I thought we were not supposed to do that.I appreciate your thoughts, Charley, and I respect them. I just don't agree with them all :) I too believe that modesty is important to chastity and morality. What I don't see is how wearing a leotard while dancing is immoral or unchaste. For you, it always seems to come back to how much of the body's skin and curves are visible to other people. For me, it always comes back to the inner thoughts, the spirit, the humility, and the actions of the person. If my daughter IS a modest person in her heart, mind and soul, then wearing a leotard while dancing will not unravel her innate modesty.Janice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 "Swimming, Sports, Showers, and Sex" - the 4 times you ain't in your garments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Okay, confession time: I put gym shorts on in my home, and drive a couple miles to the fitness center. Once in a while on the way home from the gym, I will stop at the grocery store and pick up something my wife has asked me to pick up. Keep in mind, I am still in my gym shorts, which don't quite reach as far as the knee. To be fair, because I am slightly taller than average, my garments don't reach my knees either. Am I being immodest when I do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 hmm Adam and Eve hid because they were cold? And you are trying to tell me that Heavenly Father or the Saviour just went along with Satan for the fun of it? I am not a huge fan of the study of logic, I am not uneducated just don't see the point in using human logic to understand scripture, for me only prayer and the Holy Ghost can do that.Charley! Woooh! I don't know WHY God gave the clothing, and neither do you. All we can do is guess. What did He do just after making them clothes? Kicked them out of the garden! Is it possible that he made them clothing of leather to protect them from the harsh elements, the briers, the thistles, and the noxious weeds that did not exist in the Garden? Dunno. It's AS possible as the theory that he gave them clothing because he wanted them to be modest. Personally, I find it strange to think that up to now, nudity was okay, and then all of a sudden like... it wasn't.And I confess, I have not prayed nor sought inspiration about why God made them clothing. I HAVE, however, done both on how to raise my kids. My views have little to do with society and more to do with my religious beliefs.My point exactly Charlie! I choose to NOT listen to society, but to study out the issues in the scriptures and the Ensigns, and then to formulate my own conclusions based on prayer and meditation....to say little girls dressing immodestly without good reason is normalBut, you see, the idea a leotards on a girl is immodest.. that is your opinion, and not a universal fact. And I don't believe you will find anything in any Ensign or Conference talk to support your opinion. YES! Much has been said about modesty, and I agree to the last whit with everything that has been said! But I have not found anything which tells me how I should dress my daughter when she goes to dance class. If YOU want to draw your conclusions about leotards, that is your right, but please, don't assume that your conclusion is the same conclusion everyone should have.Again... modesty is so much more about how we behave, how we act, how we live and who we are. If we are humble, honest, meek, patient, kind, charitable, forgiving, slow to anger... well then, I don't believe that wearing a leotard while dancing is immodest.Janice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Does anyone else out there teach their kids that immodesty is acceptable with their spouses?Huh? Someone is doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Okay, confession time: I put gym shorts on in my home, and drive a couple miles to the fitness center. Once in a while on the way home from the gym, I will stop at the grocery store and pick up something my wife has asked me to pick up. Keep in mind, I am still in my gym shorts, which don't quite reach as far as the knee. To be fair, because I am slightly taller than average, my garments don't reach my knees either. Am I being immodest when I do that? *gasps* You do what? I simply must have a talk with your wife about sending you to the store dressed so immodestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 ..but okay to have family members parade around each other without clothes.Parade? Who's parading? Why do you assume that if we are not wearing any clothes at home that we are parading? This seems to imply that we strip naked, line up single file, strike up a nifty John Sousa march, and then stomp around the house while flinging arms and legs into the air.Well, we don't do that. *When* we are without clothing (which ain't often), it is to do activities that you also do sans clothing.... namely, shower and get dressed. The difference is, we don't see anything wrong with doing these activities with the doors open. (Just for the record, that "other" thing mom's and dad's do with no clothing... you know the one... well, we do that with just the two of us, and we do it behind closed and locked doors. Just for the record.)I guess I'm having a hard time with this being an LDS website and some of the ideas.I am not surprised you are having a hard time with some of these ideas. That's a very normal reaction when you encounter an idea that contradicts what you have been taught your entire life. I do hope you will have an open mind, and that you will at least listen and consider, rather then rejecting outright. :)I was taught that we should always be modest. They didn't teach me only be modest in public. But at home as well.Oh, I could not agree more! We SHOULD always be modest. And modesty begins at home! But... here we are... back to clothing again... if kids take off their clothes to run through the sprinkler in the back yard, does the mere absence of clothing automatically render them immodest? If a mom and dad keep the door open while showering and then toweling off so daughters can use the mirror to brush hair and teeth at the same time, does the mere absence of clothing automatically render these parents immodest? Does modestly mean we must always hide God's creation, even from our own kin? Where did this idea come from? Who was it that first taught us to hide our bodies from loved ones? Yes! Teach respect, awe and reverence for our bodies. Yes! Teach moderation and cleanliness in the clothing we choose to wear. Yes! Teach morality and chastity. Yes! Teach proper respect for the opposite gender. I am on board with all of this! But nowhere, in all the canonized works or words of modern Prophets have I once seen any creed, quote, or teaching which tells my that letting my kids run nude in the back yard, or sharing the bathroom as we all get ready for church on Sunday is a sin. This may be a conclusion at which you have arrived. But I have not. And I've given it a lot of thought and study and prayer. :)Janice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 "Swimming, Sports, Showers, and Sex" - the 4 times you ain't in your garments.With ya on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Applepansy, I can't blame you for not having read everything in this very-long thread, but if you look back... somewhere, you will see that I shared earlier that I have already dug to the very inner depths of lds-dot-org looking for every quote and passage I can find on modesty and clothing. In my humble opinion, they all come down to this: When you are dressed, dress modestly. Not only have I found nothing with which I disagree, I also found nothing which tells me our chosen life style is wrong.You specifically said that you didn't find anything that said that dance costumes or leotards were immodest.If, however, you know of a quote that I missed, then please do share!!! I admit it's possible that I missed something. Please know that I am not interested in a vague quote on modesty followed up by your opinion and your conclusion... but I would be interested in a quote from a church leader which says, in a nut shell, "After a certain age, children should no longer be nude at home." Or, "After a certain age, children should no longer see their parents naked."Oh please. This is like searching for a quote on specific activities that are appropriate for Sundays, and a list of specific exclusions. Or specific movies that are or are not okay to watch, or music. It's ignoring the spirit of the law. In the New Testament you might be known as a Pharisee.You work out in your garments? I thought we were not supposed to do that.If you want to, go ahead. If you don't want to, it's one time that is appropriate to remove them. Heck, some people have sex with their garments on...how, I don't know.Okay, confession time: I put gym shorts on in my home, and drive a couple miles to the fitness center. Once in a while on the way home from the gym, I will stop at the grocery store and pick up something my wife has asked me to pick up. Keep in mind, I am still in my gym shorts, which don't quite reach as far as the knee. To be fair, because I am slightly taller than average, my garments don't reach my knees either. Am I being immodest when I do that?For shame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Okay, confession time: I put gym shorts on in my home, and drive a couple miles to the fitness center. Once in a while on the way home from the gym, I will stop at the grocery store and pick up something my wife has asked me to pick up. Keep in mind, I am still in my gym shorts, which don't quite reach as far as the knee. To be fair, because I am slightly taller than average, my garments don't reach my knees either. Am I being immodest when I do that?Ummm... back the boat up.I thought you were going to ask if it's wrong to go shopping without your garments on, because I just assumed you would take them off to workout. Maybe I missed something, but I am pretty sure we ain't supposed to be wearing garments to work out. Am I wrong? I'm gonna hafta look this one up.Janice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ummm... back the boat up.I thought you were going to ask if it's wrong to go shopping without your garments on, because I just assumed you would take them off to workout. Maybe I missed something, but I am pretty sure we ain't supposed to be wearing garments to work out. Am I wrong? I'm gonna hafta look this one up.Janice! I don't think that was the point JD was trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Parade? Who's parading? Why do you assume that if we are not wearing any clothes at home that we are parading? This seems to imply that we strip naked, line up single file, strike up a nifty John Sousa march, and then stomp around the house while flinging arms and legs into the air.Well, we don't do that. It's an expression. Chill out.*When* we are without clothing (which ain't often), it is to do activities that you also do sans clothing.... namely, shower and get dressed. And bake cookies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Oh please. This is like searching for a quote on specific activities that are appropriate for Sundays, and a list of specific exclusions. Or specific movies that are or are not okay to watch, or music. It's ignoring the spirit of the law. In the New Testament you might be known as a PhariseeWow. Them's pretty harsh words Wingnut. I am sorry you are making this personal. And I wonder how you know me well enough to put that kind of judgment on me. Am I wrong to have searched the Scriptures and modern Prophets to try to understand modesty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) I don't think that was the point JD was trying to make. Really? Edited January 28, 2009 by pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Wow. Them's pretty harsh words Wingnut. I am sorry you are making this personal. And I wonder how you know me well enough to put that kind of judgment on me. Am I wrong to have searched the Scriptures and modern Prophets to try to understand modesty?I'm not making this personal. If you took it that way, that's your problem. No, you are not wrong to search the scriptures or the words of the General Authorities. It's quite appropriate, in fact. However, when you do it seeking something so specific and so literal, you're asking to be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 It's an expression. Chill out.Ok, chilled. Glad to know it was just an expression. It's just that often "expressions" are loaded with connotations. And bake cookies?Right. And bake cookies. Dunno if you have ever seen kids deal with flower and sugar and eggs, but, wow. It get's messy in a hurry, and... well, I confess, I sometimes encourage the mess by starting food fights. In fact, the cookies become more of an afterthought as coating the kitchen in flower seems to often become the goal. Cleanup is is simpler when I can just hose the kids off on the back porch.Janice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Janice you are totally free to do whatever activities in whatever way you see fit with your family. Just don't expect me or Wingnut to agree with what you think is okay. I just don't agree with you. You may interpret modesty in whatever way you feel comfortable with. I just don't agree with you. If we want to start teaching modesty at home then it has to begin there. I just don't agree that it's okay as children get older to allow them to run through sprinklers naked. Especially if it is coed. I don't agree with the shower thing either. There comes a time when even that goes beyond modesty in my opinion. Not that anything sexual is going on...but it sends mixed signals that it's okay to show our bodies to others. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Really? Really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 However, when you do it seeking something so specific and so literal, you're asking to be disappointed.I have not been clear, and for that I beg your forgiveness. Lemme try again...Scripture study is a hobby of mine. I have studied and taken notes on many topics, modesty being just one of them. I have never set out looking for quotes on leotards or dance outfits. But, as it just so happens, in all my wanderings, I have also never found any.Here's my point guys, and gals.... Lots a ya seem to think me odd for not caring if my girls wear leotards at dance. You seem to think me even more odd for not closing doors when i shower, and for letting my kids have fun in their skivvies (or less). You seem to think I am allowing them to be immodest.All I am saying is this: We differ on the definition of modesty. You seem to want to make it a clothing based principle.... when one wears clothing that shows to much skin or body shape, it's not modest. I want to make it a "being" based principle.... If someone is honest, chaste, moral, reserved (etc) then they are a modest person, and the simple act of wearing something like a leotard at dance (or nothing at all at home) is not immodest.We can agree to disagree, and I am fine with that. All I ask is that we also agree that your definition of modesty is not the only definition, and that there is room for some wiggling.:)Janice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Janice you are totally free to do whatever activities in whatever way you see fit with your family. Just don't expect me or Wingnut to agree with what you think is okay.Or anyone else, for that matter.I don't agree with the shower thing either. There comes a time when even that goes beyond modesty in my opinion. Not that anything sexual is going on...but it sends mixed signals that it's okay to show our bodies to others.Ugh. That is exactly what I've been trying to figure out how to say all day. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Here's my point guys, and gals.... Lots a ya seem to think me odd for not caring if my girls wear leotards at dance Here is something that we agree on. Wearing leotards, which is a standard piece of clothing at dance is not inappropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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