"Immodest" Dance Outfits: Much Ado About Nothing?

[Janice]

Never read that we should not wear our garments when we workout.

Ben, I think you are right, and I stand corrected. Turns out I am guilty of the very thing I often accuse others of doing...

I heard a local leader express his opinion that it's a good idea to not wear them while working out, and over time I cemented this in my mind as a firm commandment: "Thou shalt remove thy garments to work out."

I appreciate the reminder that my own notion of how things are is not THE ONLY way things have to be.

Thank you

Janice

[Wingnut]

I have never heard or read this principle taught by a G.A. Sure, they teach us to dress modestly, as they should. And I agree 100% with all of their teachings on dressing modestly. But I have NEVER heard them say we need to do so because not doing so will cause others to have impure thoughts. The only people I have ever heard espousing this idiot notion is over-zealous, phobia-driven young women leaders... the same leaders who teach that girls should wear a t-shirt over their one-piece swim suits so as not to ensnare some poor boy and cause him to sin by seeing the shape of the girl's body.

Apparently you don't recognize True to the Faith as an official Church publication, the content of which has been approved by the First Presidency. The booklet can be viewed here: http://www.lds.org/languages/youthmaterials/trueToThefaith/TrueFaith_000.pdf. I will post here the contents of the modesty section, an invite you to pay particular attention to the sections I have bolded.

Modesty

Modesty is an attitude of humility and decency in dress, grooming, language, and behavior. If you are modest, you do not draw undue attention to yourself. Instead, you seek to “glorify God in your body, and in your spirit” (1 Corinthians 6:20; see also verse 19).

If you are unsure about whether your dress or grooming is modest, ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?” You might ask yourself a similar question about your language and behavior: “Would I say these words or participate in these activities if the Lord were present?” Your honest answers to these questions may lead you to make important changes in your life. The following information will help you in your efforts to be modest.

Dress and Grooming

Prophets have always counseled us to dress modestly. This counsel is founded on the truth that the human body is God’s sacred creation. Respect your body as a gift from God. Through your dress and appearance, you can show the Lord that you know how precious your body is.

Your clothing expresses who you are. It sends messages about you, and it influences the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you can invite the companionship of the Spirit and exercise a good influence on those around you.

Central to the command to be modest is an understanding of the sacred power of procreation, the ability to bring children into the world. This power is to be used only between husband and wife. Revealing and sexually suggestive clothing, which includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, and shirts that do not cover the stomach, can stimulate desires and actions that violate the Lord’s law of chastity.

In addition to avoiding clothing that is revealing, you should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. In dress, grooming, and manners, always be neat and clean, never sloppy or inappropriately casual. Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. If you are a woman and you desire to have your ears pierced, wear only one pair of modest earrings.

Maintain high standards of modesty for all occasions. Do not lower your standards to draw attention to your body or to seek approval from others. True disciples of Jesus Christ maintain the Lord’s standard regardless of current fashions or pressure from others.

Language and Behavior

Like your dress and grooming, your language and behavior are expressions of your character. Your words and actions can have a profound influence on you and on others. Express yourself through clean, positive, uplifting language and in actions that bring happiness to those around you. Your efforts to be modest in word and deed lead to increased guidance and comfort from the Holy Ghost.

Avoid the filthy language and the casual, irreverent use of the Lord’s name that are so common in the world. Withstand any temptation to participate in extreme or inappropriate behavior. The irreverent nature of such language and behavior impairs your ability to receive the quiet promptings of the Holy Ghost.

I also refer you to the For The Strength of Youth handbook, which comes with the same credentials. It can be found here: http://www.lds.org/youthresources/pdf/ForStrengYouth36550.pdf

To quote from its section on Dress and Appearance:

Dress and Appearance

Servants of God have always counseled his children to dress modestly to show respect for him and for themselves. Because the way you dress sends messages about yourself to others and often influences the way you and others act, you should dress in such a way as to bring out the best in yourself and those around you. However, if you wear an immodest bathing suit because it's "the style," it sends a message that you are using your body to get attention and approval, and that modesty is not important.

Immodest clothing includes short shorts, tight pants, and other revealing attire. Young women should refrain from wearing off-the-shoulder, low-cut, or revealing clothes. Young men should similarly maintain modesty in their dress. All should avoid tight fitting or revealing clothes and extremes in clothing and appearance.

As Latter-day Saint youth, you can also show respect for the Lord and yourselves by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities, whether on Sunday or during the week. If you are not sure what's appropriate, ask for guidelines from your parents, advisers, and bishop.

Hey, you know what? Maybe the Muslims have it right, and all girls post-puberty should wear full burkas when going outside. The reason they wear them, of course, is because they know that lustful, evil men can't handle seeing the shape of a woman's body without having impure thoughts.

As for these offensive comments, I'll refer you here: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-net-admin-alerts/14299-ethnic-cultural-jokes.html

[Janice]

Are you excluding talks from the Young Women's Presidency then?

As soon as they have the title Prophet, Seer and Revelatory, then I will regard what they teach us as scripture.

[Wingnut]

Never read that we should not wear our garments when we workout. I guess if someone wants to work out in little shorts and a sports bra or for men tight shorts and a muscle shirt then they shouldn't wear their garments.

For me loose shorts and a regular T shirt covers everything regarding my garments.

As far a sweat and BO that would keep me from wearing them when I do yard work, when chopping firewood and many other activities around the house.

I think the temple recommend questions is "Do you wear the temple garment both day and night as instructed in the temple?". If doubts about what the temple instruction is you can always ask again when in the temple the next time.

Ben Raines

I think a lot of this varies from one temple president to another. For example, I was told three S's -- sweating, swimming, and sex (I think the showering is self-explanatory). I know other people however, who have never been instructed regarding sweating. I think that if you are living appropriately and wearing the garment appropriately in general, you will receive personal inspiration to guide you...for some people this might mean that it's okay to take the garment off for working out. For others, maybe not.

[applepansy]

As soon as they have the title Prophet, Seer and Revelatory, then I will regard what they teach us as scripture.

Wow! That's all I can say. You're blowing this all out of proportion.

If you want to read what the Young Women Presidency has said under the direction of a Prophet; If you want read what a Prophet has said in Young Women's Conference, go ahead and look it up. I think I'm finished with this thread.

It is not my intention to argue but to educate. I'm sorry its gotten argumentative.

Peace,

applepansy

P.S. Wingnut, thank you for looking up True to the Faith and For the Strength of Youth.

Edited January 28, 2009 by applepansy

[Janice]

It is not my intention to argue but to educate. I'm sorry its gotten argumentative.

I wasn't arguing.

The Church is full of people giving us advice from the pulpit. Most of it is great advice, but it's not possible to take it all in. I am a human of limited capacity, and I choose to spend my limited time studying the teachings of prophets.

[Janice]

Wing, I have a mountain of thoughts on the quotes you put in bold, but they will have to wait until this evening. Work calls.

Janice

[Misshalfway]

Live and let live. Let her have her irrationalities. You probably have yours hidden somewhere. :) Just let her be and do the best she can be and do right now today. And then you do the same. We do more for healing and helping to heal each other thru this kind of tolerance and long suffering than we do in dropping our jaws in horror when we see anothers weakness. You live the best way for you. We all stumble along and sometimes we stumble along in front of one another. Deal in kindness and then move on doing your thing in peace.

[Janice]

As for these offensive comments, I'll refer you here: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-net-admin-alerts/14299-ethnic-cultural-jokes.html

I was not joking. In fact I was dead serious. A joke is something that plays on cruel stereotypes. I am not doing that. I am relating fact.

Have you been to Saudi Arabia? Iran?

I have been to both, and I was required by law to wear a burka when going out side. Only my eyes could be seen, and even then, I was told, it would be best to veil my eyes because even the eyes of a woman have the power to tempt men. If I choose to flaunt this law and allow myself to be seen in public wearing the base, sinful clothing of the West, I would be indicating my desire to cause Muslim men to sin by forcing them to witness the form of a female body, and for this I could be arrested and possibly beaten.

Note: The men can't help it. If they see the form of a female body they have to have impure thoughts. They can't help it. The fault lies with me for forcing them to have such thoughts, and for this, I will be arrested and beaten.

Does this sound familiar?

Janice

[Janice]

Live and let live. Let her have her irrationalities. You probably have yours hidden somewhere. :) Just let her be and do the best she can be and do right now today. And then you do the same. We do more for healing and helping to heal each other thru this kind of tolerance and long suffering than we do in dropping our jaws in horror when we see anothers weakness. You live the best way for you. We all stumble along and sometimes we stumble along in front of one another. Deal in kindness and then move on doing your thing in peace.

Thank you, miss half way, for that astoundingly judgmental post. May you be judged as you judge others.

Janice

[Elgama]

Personally I admire my friends that have chosen to wear Burkhas and Hijabs its very liberating for them, no huge concerns about hairstyles, fashions, body shape etc Personally I choose when I saying my personal prayers to cover my head it helps me concentrate.

-Charley

[Wingnut]

I was not joking. In fact I was dead serious. A joke is something that plays on cruel stereotypes. I am not doing that. I am relating fact.

Have you been to Saudi Arabia? Iran?

I have been to both, and I was required by law to wear a burka when going out side. Only my eyes could be seen, and even then, I was told, it would be best to veil my eyes because even the eyes of a woman have the power to tempt men. If I choose to flaunt this law and allow myself to be seen in public wearing the base, sinful clothing of the West, I would be indicating my desire to cause Muslim men to sin by forcing them to witness the form of a female body, and for this I could be arrested and possibly beaten.

Note: The men can't help it. If they see the form of a female body they have to have impure thoughts. They can't help it. The fault lies with me for forcing them to have such thoughts, and for this, I will be arrested and beaten.

Does this sound familiar?

Janice

I know you weren't joking. Your comments were still derogatory and sarcastic.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Wingnut

[NeuroTypical]

I will never teach my girls that their bodies, by simply existing, will cause boys to have impure thoughts. What a splendid way to teach them to fear their own bodies. What a fantastic way to teach them to fear the thoughts of boys.

...

When we teach our girls this terrible principle, we also teach them the flip side of the same idea: If you want to yield power over boys, just show a little skin.

The importance of this topic breeds strong opinions. Therefore, I can respect the passion behind yours.

May I suggest a book to you (and anyone else reading this thread, for that matter)? And They Were Not Ashamed: Strengthening Marriage Through Sexual Fulfillment

It's basically the closest thing our church has to a "how to do it" book, but it also takes an in depth look into how both male and female brains work. It talks about how the average male is incredibly responsive to visual stimulation. It ain't a guy's fault, we're built that way. It isn't a woman's fault either, but it is partially her problem. This book might help you view the male sexual responses with a bit more understanding and respect, and it might help you teach realities to your girls without instilling fear in them.

LM

[rameumptom]

I would have suggested that we see if there are modest outfits for our daughters to wear for the program. If so, then I would have placed my child into it, and allowed my friend to do whatever with her own child, without judging.

Neither of you is "whacko." Both of you have different views, neither necessarily being right or wrong, just different.

[ruthiechan]

Sleeveless dresses to church? No problem. They are kids! Let them be kids!

It concerns me greatly that no one has spoken about this.

Sleeveless dresses ARE a problem. It sets a precedent that there is nothing immodest about those clothes, and causes strife and rebelliousness when it's time for the transition. It can also be difficult to know when to make that transition, since to parents who witness the development of their child tend to have a difficult time seeing the difference between a four year old and a five year old.

We should dress our children as though they were wearing child sized garments. That way there is no transition. It's simply how modest people dress. It is also a part of preparing them for the Temple.

If you have cute sleeveless dresses then have your children wear cute sleeved shirts or blouses underneath them to match. Kids can still be kids while dressed modestly.

[Wingnut]

Thank you, miss half way, for that astoundingly judgmental post. May you be judged as you judge others.

Janice

I'm sorry, I must have missed something. Are you the pot, or the kettle today?

[applepansy]

Thank you, miss half way, for that astoundingly judgmental post. May you be judged as you judge others.

Janice

Janice, Misshalfway's post was to me as much as anyone. I didn't get offended.

Wingnut, Can I be the kettle?

Edited January 28, 2009 by applepansy

[john doe]

Okay guys. let's step back and take a deep breath before the next post. This is starting to get contentious.

[lisajo]

If she is going to be so prudish about dance out fits, there is nothing in this world this woman is going to like, i cant even imagine when her child goes to prom, just cause others may were some thing not to her liking doesnt mean her child has to, or for that matter not be around kids that do wear it, i guess she needs to take a look at the real world you cant shelter your kids that much to keep them away from it,

[Janice]

I'm sorry, I must have missed something. Are you the pot, or the kettle today?

I have been trying very, very hard to not slander any individuals. I honestly hope, in all that I've said in this thread, that I have never once attacked or insulted a person themselves. If I have, or if someone feels that I have, I offer my sincere apology. This was never my intent.

I have no problem going after someone's ideas or point of views, and I honestly enjoy it when people do the same to me, as it gives me the oppirtunity to re-examine and possibly correct my current thinking (a la Ben and working out in Garments). I positively enjoy it when someone points out a flaw in my thinking, as it allows me to become better.

Perhaps I am wrong, but Miss HaldfWay's post, I felt, was a direct attack on me. "Let her have her irrationalities.... let her be and do the best she can be and do right now.... We all stumble along..."

How else was I to have taken this?

Janice

[Janice]

And They Were Not Ashamed: Strengthening Marriage Through Sexual Fulfillment

Wonderful book!

[Janice]

I know you weren't joking. Your comments were still derogatory and sarcastic.

I don't understand why you took it that way. I was not trying to be either.

For women in Saudi and Iran, it's neither derogatory or sarcastic. It's real life. Their society honestly feels that if a man sees the form of a female body he can not help but to have impure thoughts, and thus it is the duty of all women to cover up completely. Translation: Men are animals who can't control their thoughts, and the bodies of women inherently instill lust.

I reject both.

When we teach our girls that they must dress modestly to keep boys from having impure thoughts, I think we are headed down this exact same path, and it scares me. It is teaching boys that they can't control their thoughts, and it is teaching girls a very scary message about their bodies.

I want nothing to do with such teachings. Our bodies were created by God. Our boys have the ability to control their thoughts.

Janice.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Janice

[BenRaines]

I have just read several of posts in this thread. How did it get so far off? It was about modesty in dance outfits and now it is about if you wear your garments and when.

I echo John Doe's statement. One more accusation of someone being self righteous or that someone is better than another and this thread will be closed.

13th Article of Faith "If there is anything lovely or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things".

Ben Raines

[Janice]

Personally I admire my friends that have chosen to wear Burkhas and Hijabs

Key word being *chosen*. And, I feel the same way. Millions of women, however, do not have the choice, and if they choose to not wear them, they will be arrested and beaten. They are being taught that their bodies, if seen, will cause men (who can't help it) to lust.

Janice

[Janice]

I have just read several of posts in this thread. How did it get so far off?

I take the blame for this, Ben. I should never have mentioned that my kids bake cookies and run in the sprinkler naked. I had no idea the powder keg it would ignite. It seems very innocent to me.

I'm sorry.

Janice

Edited January 28, 2009 by Janice