Hybrid Commandments?

[Janice]

So I've been thinking recently about the curious blend of commandments, suggestions, and traditions that seem to sometime result in "Hybrid Commandments" (a term I made up, I think).

Relief Society last Sunday got me thinking about it again.

I have never watched a super bowl in my life, and I think my hubby might be able to say the same thing, although I am not sure. I'm neither boasting nor confessing... it's just never been an interest for me. I was surprised nevertheless to hear the Relief Society President stand up at the end of the lesson last Sunday and bear her testimony that "the Prophet has told us to not watch football on Sunday, and as wives, we have a duty to encourage our husbands to not watch it either."

I was sitting next to a recent convert, and I could literally feel her body temperature rise. After the prayer she said, almost in tears, "What ELSE am I doing wrong that nobody has told me about yet?"

We have very clear commandments, such as:

Thou Shalt Keep The Sabbath Day Holy.

I don't think anyone disputes that.

Then, built up around that commandment we have very strong suggestions from righteous men whom the Lord has called to lead this church. Just one example: Do your shopping and other worldly activities on the first six days so you can keep Sunday spiritual; Sports and sporting events should never prevent you from keeping Sunday spiritual, etc. (I do NOT want this to become a list of Sabbath do's and don'ts.)

And in addition, I think every family has their own traditions of what life should be like on Sunday. One example: The family in which I grew up always had a very formal feast on Sunday. We laid out the best china, the crystal glasses, and the silver forks, knives and spoons. It usually included a roast, a turkey or a ham, home made rolls, a huge salad, and a desert of fruit and cheese. We almost always had guests.

I grew up firmly believing that EVERY family had such a proper feast on Sunday after church, and (although as a child I don't think I could have put this into words) I probably even thought that any family who didn't was not properly observing the Sabbath.

So, here's my thought....

I think that over time, we take the ACTUAL commandment, blend them with suggestions and traditions, and come up with hybrid commandments. Example:

Thou Shalt Not Watch Football on Sunday

I also think that we then want to project our own personal hybrids onto other people, expect them to live by them as well, and even sometimes judge them against our hybrids.

What do you think? I've talked about one example... Have you seen others? I am off base here? Do you think we all have a duty to live by every "suggestion" from the Brethren? At what point do "suggestions" become "commandments"? Is everything said from the General Conference pulpit to be taken as canonized scripture?

And mostly.... have YOU ever been told one of your cherished (and maybe even spiritual) family traditions, practices, hobbies or life styles are not in keeping with Church teachings?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts! :)

Janice

[pam]

What do you think? I've talked about one example... Have you seen others? I am off base here? Do you think we all have a duty to live by every "suggestion" from the Brethren? At what point do "suggestions" become "commandments"? Is everything said from the General Conference pulpit to be taken as canonized scripture?

At what point do we decide ourselves to say...okay he is a General Authority but it is only a suggestion so I don't have to follow it?

[applepansy]

This in interesting. I agree that often we (long time members) expand on commandments. . .and growing up in the LDS culture gives us a different prespective.

I don't have an example right at the moment. . . I'll think on it.

I am interested in hearing what others experiences are.

applepansy

[hordak]

At what point do we decide ourselves to say...okay he is a General Authority but it is only a suggestion so I don't have to follow it?

When it isn't doctrine.

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.

[bytor2112]

I don't watch football on Sunday.....but I did watch the Super bowl. I don't feel guilty and I don't think I should, and I think that Relief Society Sister is a bit over zealous.....well intentioned probably, but over zealous....IMHO.

[hordak]

Thou shalt not grow a beard.

I know a high priest who lost power to his house for a week and couldn't shave. He was glad it came back on Saturday night so he could "do the right thing" and shave.

[pam]

Granted none have come out and said.."Thou shalt not watch football on Sunday" I'm in agreement with that.

But I'm confused....when we have General Conference...or we read the Ensign (and those are inspired in my opinion) and those men counsel and advise us on certain matters...do we sit back and say that's not official doctrine so...oh well?

Edited February 3, 2009 by pam
correcting spelling error

[bytor2112]

Endless debates....coke or no coke. I am not sure, but I doubt that the Saviour is gonna ask you if you watched the Super Bowl on Sunday. If that is our biggest worry, we are probably in good shape.

[Wingnut]

As far as I am concerned, whether it is a commandment or counsel, that which the Lord counsels becomes a commandment to Gordon B. Hinckley. I hope it does to you.

(Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley p. 703)

[Traveler]

......

We have very clear commandments, such as:

Thou Shalt Keep The Sabbath Day Holy.

.........

I think that over time, we take the ACTUAL commandment, blend them with suggestions and traditions, and come up with hybrid commandments. Example:

Thou Shalt Not Watch Football on Sunday

I also think that we then want to project our own personal hybrids onto other people, expect them to live by them as well, and even sometimes judge them against our hybrids.

What do you think? I've talked about one example... Have you seen others? I am off base here? Do you think we all have a duty to live by every "suggestion" from the Brethren? At what point do "suggestions" become "commandments"? Is everything said from the General Conference pulpit to be taken as canonized scripture?

And mostly.... have YOU ever been told one of your cherished (and maybe even spiritual) family traditions, practices, hobbies or life styles are not in keeping with Church teachings?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts! :)

Janice

I believe that discussing the do's and don't's of the Sabbath is often out of context. I like to ask concerning the Sabbath: "What are your personal covenants concerning the Sabbath?" How do you Keep your Sabbath?

Often I like to find out why someone has included or excluded things in their personal covenants - this "why" to me has far more importance than the what.

I am very impressed in the honesity of Adam when asked why he offered sacrifice and he responded that he really did not understand except that G-d had commanded him. In other words he had faith in G-d.

We must be careful what we command - especially to those that have faith in us or our calling.

The Traveler

[hordak]

(Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley p. 703)

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.

(newsroom.lds.org)

This is why the 4th principle of the gospel is the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Wingnut]

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.

(newsroom.lds.org)

This is why the 4th principle of the gospel is the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I totally agree with you there. I agree that not everything is given in a doctrinal statement. I was giving an example. If President Hinckley takes all suggestions and counsel as commandments from the Lord, wouldn't that be a good example for us to follow?

Edited February 3, 2009 by Wingnut

[Wingnut]

This is why the 4th principle of the gospel is the gift of the Holy Ghost.

To clarify, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is actually the second ordinance of the gospel, and not the fourth principle.

[pam]

Thou shalt not grow a beard.

I know a high priest who lost power to his house for a week and couldn't shave. He was glad it came back on Saturday night so he could "do the right thing" and shave.

hahaha has he ever heard of disposable razors. That would be like someone not washing dishes because their dishwasher is broken.

[Janice]

At what point do we decide ourselves to say...okay he is a General Authority but it is only a suggestion so I don't have to follow it?

That is a superb question. I'm glad you asked. I would answer by saying this:

We preach the norms, not the exceptions. But exceptions do exist. It would be wrong of us to flippantly disregard Church teachings with a passive, "Oh, that does not apply to me". IF we are going to deviate from standard church teachings (ie: become an exception), then we owe it to ourselves to make darn sure we have made this decision based on prayer, study, fasting, and personal revelation.

I also think hordak has a good point. I wonder if it really is possible to follow ALL of the suggestions given over the General Conference Pulpit. By show of hands, how many here do ALL of the following: genealogy, 100% visiting (home) teaching every month, go to the Temple as often as possible, read the scriptures every day, have a year supply of food, have FHE once a week, have family prayer ever day, offer a perfect fast once a month... I could go on, but you get the idea.

MOST of us try our hardest to live by the major gospel doctrine points... ie: we are generally worthy of a temple recommend. But there is not an LDS person on the planet who lives by every suggestion given by the Brethren. Which ones do you cherry pick? Do you judge others for cherry picking different ones then you do? Do you have your own hybrid commandments? Do you ever look down upon others for not living up to your home-made hybrid commandments?

I confess. I do. But unlike some, I am at least AWARE that I do.

Janice.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Janice

[Wingnut]

hahaha has he ever heard of disposable razors. That would be like someone not washing dishes because their dishwasher is broken.

If my husband breaks his leg, you bet I'm not washing dishes.

[pam]

Dang...where is the LOL button.

[Janice]

But I'm confused....when we have General Conference...or we read the Ensign (and those are inspired in my opinion) and those men counsel and advise us on certain matters...do we sit back and say that's not official doctrine so...oh well?

No.

But I also don't think its not possible or realistic to adapt everything they say into our lives.

How do we pick and choose? AND, equally as important, do we ever judge others for picking and choosing differently then we do?

Janice

Edited February 3, 2009 by Janice

[YellowLight]

When it isn't doctrine.

But Hinckley saying that girls should only have one pair of earings is not doctrine either. And, we know that prophets and others speak as men the majority of time and they are also not perfect. So, what makes their little "suggestions" different than the teacher at church who says that you need to wear your church clothes all day on Sunday to keep the spirit? Are they going overboard with their suggestions, are you not having the spirit by wearing other clothes? Needless to say, this is one of the biggest problems I have with the church and it's structure.

[Janice]

If President Hinckley takes all suggestions and counsel as commandments from the Lord, wouldn't that be a good example for us to follow?

Careful with the wording. I would re-word as such:

If President Hinckley takes all suggestions and counsel from the Lord as commandments, wouldn't that be a good example for us to follow?

To this I would say: Yes!

[YellowLight]

No.

But I also don't think its possible or realistic to adapt everything they say into our lives.

How do we pick and choose? AND, equally as important, do we ever judge others for picking and choosing differently then we do?

Janice

And good luck trying to find out what the "Official Doctrine" is. If you figure it out without resorting to circular logic, mental gymnastics, and a good case of cog dis let me know.

[pam]

Let's be VERY careful with this thread. I see an agenda here. Also criticism of Church leaders and the Church will not be tolerated.

[Janice]

But Hinckley saying that girls should only have one pair of earings is not doctrine either. And, we know that prophets and others speak as men the majority of time and they are also not perfect. So, what makes their little "suggestions" different than the teacher at church who says that you need to wear your church clothes all day on Sunday to keep the spirit? Are they going overboard with their suggestions, are you not having the spirit by wearing other clothes? Needless to say, this is one of the biggest problems I have with the church and it's structure.

I don't have a problem with church structure. All of this points NOT to a problem with the Church, but it DOES point to a need for personal revelation and inspiration.

Janice

[Janice]

And good luck trying to find out what the "Official Doctrine" is. If you figure it out without resorting to circular logic, mental gymnastics, and a good case of cog dis let me know.

I am *grateful* for this. It helps us think for ourselves, make our own decisions, and rely on personal inspiration.

Yellow, do you really want (need?) to be told exactly how to live your life?

Janice

[Connie]

The official doctrine of the Latter-day Saints is clearly defined and readily accessible to all. Doctrines are official if they are found in the standard works of the Church, if they are sustained by the Church in general conference (D&C 26:2), or if they are taught by the First Presidency as a presidency. Policies and procedures are official whenever those who hold the keys and have been sustained by the Church to make them declare them so.

-Stephen E. Robinson (New Era > May 1998)

Should that which is written in Church publications and lesson manuals be taken as official doctrine?

Dean L. Larsen, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, Aug. 1977, 38

Elder Dean L. Larsen of the First Quorum of the Seventy and Managing Director of Curriculum Resources Church publications fall into four general categories: (1) materials related to the curriculum, such as lesson manuals, teachers’ supplements, and student materials; (2) magazines; (3) administrative documents, such as handbooks, leadership training materials, organizational guidelines and bulletins, etc.; and (4) missionary discussions, tracts, and support materials. All of the materials within these four categories are prepared under the direction of some officially recognized Church agency, and they are reviewed and cleared by the Church Correlation Review committees before they are published and issued to the Church.

A wide range of hardbound books, pamphlets, and other printed materials is constantly being printed and placed on the market by independent publishing companies. Many of these materials deal with religious matters. Some are written by Church members, including General Authorities. Publications that fall into this category are not generally authorized by the Church. The authors, compilers, and publishers assume full responsibility for the content and do not seek or receive official Church endorsement.

Over the years a careful selection of these hardbound, independently published books has been made and approved by the First Presidency and the Twelve for placement in Church meetinghouse libraries. They are to serve as approved resource materials for priesthood leaders, teachers, and the general membership. Any additions to this “authorized list” of hardbound books must be approved by the First Presidency and the Twelve. The number of books on this list is small. They can be identified by meetinghouse librarians.

While the content of the approved Church publications identified above does not claim the same endorsement that the standard works receive, nonetheless they are prepared with great care and are carefully screened before they are published. Writers of curriculum materials must be cleared by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve. Their product is reviewed closely by the heads of the organizations that are responsible for their implementation. Correlation Review committees check carefully for doctrinal accuracy and for harmony with established Church policies and procedures.

The General Handbook of Instructions is not only reviewed by Correlation, but also receives a close auditing from each individual member of the First Presidency and the Twelve.

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Much care is exercised to make certain that the official publications of the Church carry messages that are sound in doctrine and fully in harmony with currently approved policies and procedures. A constant effort is maintained to upgrade and correct the content of these materials so that they can merit the confidence and approval of Church leaders and the general membership.

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