Hybrid Commandments?

[applepansy]

Yeah.....I agree but then there are the things are aren't either one. The law is keeping the sabbath day holy. There are lots of ways of keeping that law and stumbling over the individual definitions is, in my opinion, missing the point --- or at least stumbling over it.

And just one more thought......RS Presidents don't make doctrine. I agree with Wing in that she may have her opinion and that may work for her.....but that doesn't mean that how she interprets the law is always correct. I think the Lord does allow us some breathing room here. And I don't think we should believe everything we hear at church. If that were true then I would be praying to flowers, following five easy steps to Godhood and paying whatever tithing I felt I could.

Exactly! If something is taught on Sunday that is contradicting the commandments or the Prophet, there is a process. As members we have the gift of the Holy Ghost. If we're living right when something contradictory is taught usually we know right away. If we're struggling with the issue. . . fasting, prayer, confirmation from priesthood authority are the steps to take.

As for the counsel to not watch TV on Sunday. When my husband and I have made it a priority to not turn on the TV on Sundays, life just goes smoother during the week. Probably because we spend more time talking with each other, reading scriptures or other good literature. We just get closer to the Lord. So as an example, for me not watching TV on Sundays isn't a flawless example. I've seen what can happen when we honor the Sabbath to the extent that the TV isn't on.

I would hope a RS President would be more sensitive on a subject but I wasn't there. Still her counsel was sound and obedience would bring greater blessings, whether she was right or wrong.

We all have our agency. We get to choose and what a marvelous thing that is!

applepansy

Edit: I remember a Sunday when I was about 10 or 11 years old. My Dad was asked to say the closing prayer. We had a speaker who was prominent in the community. I wasn't paying much attention until my Dad got up to pray and said "Bless us with the power of decernment between right and wrong." My Dad's prayer caused quite a stir and it was awhile before Dad was invited to pray in church again. :) However, the experience did a couple of things. 1. Dad got my attention. I listened closely while he taught us later why what the speaker had said was wrong, and Dad backed it up with Scripture. 2. I also learned its never wrong to pray for the power of discernment between right and wrong. Sometimes to do it publically takes courage. I'm very proud of my Dad. . .that was only the first of many situatons where my Dad stood out on and up for truth, regardless of repercussions.

Edited February 3, 2009 by applepansy

[gabelpa]

We are imperfect, and if you've ever sat through a High Priest's lesson, you'll know that we do tolerate some false doctrine. As far as the General Authorities are concerned, it only really becomes a problem when we preach false doctrine, and do not accept correction, or do so intending to deceive others.

Sometimes people are called as teachers, not because of what they will teach, and who they will inspire, but rather for what they will learn.

[Janice]

Apple, thank you for your reply. I think we are getting away from my original intent for THIS thread.

By default, I tend to agree with and live by everything that comes out of SLC. There have been very few instiances in which I have disagreed. (I can can count them all on one hand. Even less.) In each case I have examined myself, and I have examined the issue. Sometimes I have found that I am the problem, I put aside my pride (NOT easy) and changed. In other times, I have not been able to reconcile my past experiences, my knowledge, and my own personal inspiration with what has been said by our leaders.

Does this mean they are wrong? No! It just means that this particular instruction is not right for me.

I have not made these choices lightly.

(Other times, rarely, I have known flat out that I need to change and become compliant with teachings, but I just simply don't want to yet. These instances are not worth going into.... we all have our little issues.... mine is Vodka and Whiskey. HA! Just kidding. For some reason, I can't bring myself to do genealogy. I KNOW I should, and someday I will, but not right now. I feel guilty about this.)

Now, back to THIS thread...

My point here is that I fear we (note: we) sometimes bend and twist commandments to our own comfort, and then expect others to abide by our own personal interpretations. A Commandment such as Thou Shalt Not Kill is easy to keep. Fairly B&W. So is Tithing. 10% is 10%. But a commandment such as Keeping the Sabbath Holy is open to a WIDE degree of interpretation.

My ONLY point in this thread is this (no hidden agenda): It is okay to have your own interpretation of a given commandment. It is not okay to assume everyone else should live by your interpretation.

Janice

[MorningStar]

What if the Relief Society President is right? What if watching the Superbowl is not a holy activity? What if a lot of members watch it because it's hard for them to give up something so fun? I think we all struggle with things we really want to do but aren't necessarily right and resist when another tries to steer us in the right direction.

There was a lot of irritation about President Hinckley saying the women should wear one pair of earrings. Maybe there's a really good reason for it we can't see? It's troubling when people say that that is only his opinion and don't take it into consideration that maybe it's a test? It's a really easy thing to ask to remove earrings. We will be asked to do much harder things in the future.

[Janice]

Still her counsel was sound and obedience would bring greater blessings, whether she was right or wrong.

Wow! Really? That's the first thing you have said with which I flatly disagree. You think it is okay to follow false doctrine? This is a VERY dangerous mind frame, IMO. Just because we have callings does not mean every time we open our mouths while acting in that calling means we are uttering the word of God. We are human, and we make mistakes. Sometimes we say things in settings like meetings that are WRONG.

This RS President was WRONG. No Prophet has ever said what she said they said.

Janice

[MorningStar]

The way I would approach it with the convert would be, "We are taught to keep the Sabbath Day holy. Some people think that includes refraining from all recreation, TV, etc., and some people don't. That's something to pray about and pay attention to whether an activity brings you closer to the Spirit or not." If it is not in harmony in living the Gospel, I'm sure it must be confusing for a convert to hear people talking about Superbowl parties they're throwing that day.

[applepansy]

Wow! Really? That's the first thing you have said with which I flatly disagree. You think it is okay to follow false doctrine? This is a VERY dangerous mind frame, IMO. Just because we have callings does not mean every time we open our mouths while acting in that calling means we are uttering the word of God. We are human, and we make mistakes. Sometimes we say things in settings like meetings that are WRONG.

This RS President was WRONG. No Prophet has ever said what she said they said.

Janice

Janice. . . this is back to obedience again.

Is the RS president wrong? No. She's not teaching false doctrine. Holding ourselves to a higher standard brings higher blessings. Was her presentation human? Sure and I'm certain people were offended. However, just because you disagree with her doesn't make her guilty of teaching false doctrine. The doctrine she was teaching was "Keep the Sabbath Holy". . .her suggestion to not watch TV.

I'm not going to get into another argument on whether not watching TV on Sunday is keeping the Sabbath Holy or not.

You can choose to do with this what you will.

applepansy

[Janice]

The way I would approach it with the convert would be, "We are taught to keep the Sabbath Day holy. Some people think that includes refraining from all recreation, TV, etc., and some people don't. That's something to pray about and pay attention to whether an activity brings you closer to the Spirit or not." If it is not in harmony in living the Gospel, I'm sure it must be confusing for a convert to hear people talking about Superbowl parties they're throwing that day.

Agreed 100%. This is basically what her friend (sitting on the other side of her) said.

[Janice]

I'm not going to get into another argument on whether not watching TV on Sunday is keeping the Sabbath Holy or not.

Good

Is the RS president wrong? No.

We must agree to disagree on this one. She said, and I quote, "the Prophet has told us to not watch football on Sunday."

He has never said any such thing. She was wrong. If someone wants to then change their behavior and stop watching football on Sunday, I have no problem with that. But I have a serious problem with a RS President putting words into the mouth of a Prophet. I simply can't see how anyone could think this is okay. When we allow this, what ELSE will we say the Prophet said, and expect people to believe us?

Janice

[Elgama]

There was a lot of irritation about President Hinckley saying the women should wear one pair of earrings. Maybe there's a really good reason for it we can't see? It's troubling when people say that that is only his opinion and don't take it into consideration that maybe it's a test? It's a really easy thing to ask to remove earrings. We will be asked to do much harder things in the future.

I agree with this, I was upset at this talk lol my fiance's hair was all over the barbers floor after it, but finally in General Conference in October I received the answer, there should be nothing about a priest's appearance when passing sacrament that should detract from the sacrament itself, white shirts are to be worn as a symbol of our covenants - baptism and endownment, sealing etc when we wear white. Its an example of how I may have struggled because of lack of understanding but the prophet knew why. Now I do:) And will be working extra hard to ensure my husband's white shirt is perfect for church on a Sunday.

I will admit to watching TV on a Sunday but no way am I going to kid myself that whilst I am doing it I am in anyway focusing on the Lord, so the RS President is correct, Prophet after Prophet have taught us its the Lord's day I fail to see how he is the primary focus of the thoughts of someone watching the Superbowl. And actually i am sure I remember a New Era Article that said President Benson said not to partake in sports or hunting on the Sabbath. If the RS President was reading the New Era in the 1990s he did indeed say it

-Charley

Edited February 3, 2009 by Elgama

[Janice]

I will admit to watching TV on a Sunday but no way am I going to kid myself that whilst I am doing it I am in anyway focusing on the Lord, so the RS President is correct, Prophet after Prophet have taught us its the Lord's day I fail to see how he is the primary focus of the thoughts of someone watching the Superbowl. And actually i am sure I remember a New Era Article that said President Benson said not to partake in sports or hunting on the Sabbath

I am really surprised how many of you are willing to say this RS President was right.

Question: Is it okay to mis-quote a prophet?

If you answer yes, how about this:

"The Prophet said he uses my product and loves it, and that all good LDS people should buy one."

Or,

"The Prophet said we should strt burning incense when we bless and pass the sacrament."

Yeah, I know. I am being silly to make a point. But honestly, don't you think we have a DUTY to quote the prophet accurately? We may happen to AGREE with the mis-quote, but does that really mean it's okay to mis-quote him?

Am I really alone on this?

Janice

[applepansy]

Wow! Really? That's the first thing you have said with which I flatly disagree. You think it is okay to follow false doctrine? This is a VERY dangerous mind frame, IMO. Just because we have callings does not mean every time we open our mouths while acting in that calling means we are uttering the word of God. We are human, and we make mistakes. Sometimes we say things in settings like meetings that are WRONG.

This RS President was WRONG. No Prophet has ever said what she said they said.

Janice

Janice, If that is exactly what she said, then my question to you is Why didn't you speaki up and ask for a reference or for clarification?

We, as members, teach each other. If a teacher or RS President (in this case) says somerthing we feel was wrong, we not only have the right but the obligation to correct it in a charitable way. That way there are no misunderstandings. Your RS President could then correct or clarify.

We are not agreeing with your RS President if she misquoted a Prophet. We are agreeing that not watching TV on Sunday brings the spirit into our homes. Please don't read more into our words than are there. Elgama is right. . .it has been said.

applepansy

Edited February 3, 2009 by applepansy

[Elgama]

I am really surprised how many of you are willing to say this RS President was right.

Question: Is it okay to mis-quote a prophet?

Which prophet did she misquote? I thought she gave her understanding? Are you telling me watching sports on a Sunday is when you are completely focused on the Lord? Firstly it is something taught in the primary manual about watching sports on the Sabbath, and again in YW Manual.

I found my article it was a speech given at BYU but has been quoted in conference etc

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy

One way to more effectively keep the Sabbath day holy is to prepare in advance. Elder Benson gave us the following additional suggestions. These practical suggestions might well be performed by all members of the family, with husband and wife and all children cooperating together before the Sabbath in order to be prepared and ready for the Sabbath:

“—Houseclean, straighten up, refuel the car, and prepare clothing and meals in advance on Saturday.

“—Provide for recreation and amusements during the week and provide for a holiday during the week, if possible.

“—Get a good rest on Saturday night.”

We might also consider what activities do not fit the spirit or purpose of the Sabbath. Elder Benson offered the following suggestions of what to avoid:

“—Overworking and staying up late Saturday so that you are exhausted the next day.

“—Filling the Sabbath so full of extra meetings that there is no time for prayer, meditation, family fellowship, and counseling.

“—Doing gardening and odd jobs around the house.

“—Taking trips to canyons or resorts, visiting friends socially, joy riding, wasting time, and engaging in other amusements. …

“—Engaging in sports and hunting ‘wild animals’ which God made for the use of man only ‘in times of famine and excess of hunger’ (see D&C 89:15). …

“—Reading material that does not contribute to your spiritual uplift.

“—Shopping or supporting with your patronage businesses that operate on Sunday, such as grocery stores, supermarkets, restaurants, and service stations” (Ensign, May 1971, 6–7).

So following usual logic encouraging people by watching sports would be wrong

We are taught when we listen to conference to take notes of our impressions whilst things are being said, President Faust more recently said shopping, watching sports etc was a decision we all made and we would be accountable for, but I do remember noting his tone at the time, it was the same one I use with my kids when I think its best they learn the consequences of their own actions.

When you read what prophets have said about Sabbath Day Observance there is no way I can say she misunderstood the prophet, because I know myself that its an activity which conflicts with what they have written concerning the matter. I have never ever in 17 years as a Latter Day Saint in the UK heard anyone saying watching sports was appropriate, I have heard people admit to it being a weakness or doing it, but never saying it was right.

-Charley

[hordak]

I don't think there was a problem with my wording (especially when you look at it in the context of the quote I originally gave, not the tiny tidbit you chose to display here). I think you know exactly what I meant.

Thank you, Spiderman.

(Seriously, though, I do get the point you were making. I just wanted to tease you first.)

Technically it's Uncle Ben.:)

[Connie]

Janice, this principal of authority is true. We can choose to be obedient to our leaders or just dismiss their counsel. Its our choice. We have our agency.

I don't know that i can add any to this conversation except to add my witness that this is a correct principle. Our church leaders, at any level in the church, derive their authority directly from the first presidency and, of course, the first presidency gets their authority directly from the Lord, so by extension our local leaders speak for the Lord to us.

No, our leaders are not perfect. They are human, they make mistakes, but they have a stewardship to fulfill. That is between them and the Lord. They will be accountable to Him for how well they lead.

We, on the other hand, will be accountable for how well we followed our leaders. If they are blatantly teaching false doctrine, then that is of great concern and we need to go to a higher authority and voice our concerns and then let it be handled in the proper way.

[LittleWyvern]

One way to more effectively keep the Sabbath day holy is to prepare in advance. Elder Benson gave us the following additional suggestions. These practical suggestions might well be performed by all members of the family, with husband and wife and all children cooperating together before the Sabbath in order to be prepared and ready for the Sabbath:

...

We might also consider what activities do not fit the spirit or purpose of the Sabbath. Elder Benson offered the following suggestions of what to avoid:

...

If I may throw my opinion into this, I think the key word here is suggestion. To me, this means that Elder Benson is offering various methods he uses to fulfill the abstract requirement of keeping the sabbath day holy. I don't think Elder Benson is trying to say that these are the only right answers, or that no other answers are valid, but that these are just some ideas. Your mileage may vary, as they say.

So, with regards the the OP, I think your RS president should have been more clear that what she said was a suggestion, not a commandment, but regardless it's a good suggestion.

[Wingnut]

By default, I tend to agree with and live by everything that comes out of SLC.

Unless it comes from the General Relief Society Presidency or a Seventy, right? Only if it comes directly from the Prophet or an Apostle? That is what you were saying here, here, and here, isn't it?

As for being taught about sports and Sundays, I reference the following:

Some trifle with the Lord’s sacred, hallowed Sabbath day and spend the day in sports, pleasure, and other worldly interests when they should have been resting from worldly interests and devoting time to the spiritual side of life in reading the scriptures, attending religious meetings, in developing greater love for God, self, neighbor, and family. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Divine Power of Repentance)

Jesus came as our example. He lived a sinless life and furnished us with a working model of righteousness. His simple message was “Follow me” (Luke 9:59). He asked us to follow him in his teachings, to follow him in his righteousness, and to follow him in his love for others. Unfortunately and sadly, many have not followed him; rather, they have followed those who could find no room for his teachings, his miracles, or his doctrines. Many have made no room for him because their lives are loaded down with sin and pleasures. Others have made room for their physical comforts; they have made room to expand their educational opportunities; but they have crowded him out. Some have made room to work more hours to accumulate material possessions; still others have made room to multiply their luxury and increase their leisure time and have made room for more sports and entertainment, but they have made no room for him. They have made room for many violations of the Sabbath day, but they have made no room for the Savior of the world—our Redeemer and Master. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - Acquaint Thyself with Him, and Be at Peace)

Brethren and sisters, once again I call to our attention the fourth commandment given by the Lord to Moses on Mount Sinai: “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy” (Ex. 20:8). Let us observe it strictly in our homes and in our families. Let us refrain from all unnecessary labors. Sunday is not a day for hunting or fishing, nor for swimming, picnicking, boating, or engaging in any other sports. The stores in areas where we are more numerous would not long remain open on Sunday if the Saints refrained from shopping on that day. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - We Need a Listening Ear)

Jacob, speaking to the Nephites, told them, “Wherefore, ye shall remember your children, how that ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them; and also, remember that ye may, because of your filthiness, bring your children unto destruction, and their sins be heaped upon your heads at the last day.” (Jacob 3:10.) The dramatic power of example by parents in the lives of children is clearly demonstrated in those words.

Sometimes bad examples, or “the uncertain sound of the trumpet,” which children receive in the home comes in the form of criticism of Church authorities, or in speaking kind words and thoughts outside the home but within it speaking words which are harsh and brusque. The sound is unclear if children observe the payment of tithing when and if it is convenient, or if they hear justifications for not paying it in moments when faith weakens. It is a distorted sound when they see that observance of the Sabbath depends on which sport event is scheduled for the day, or if the weather is ideal for an outing. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Sure Sound of the Trumpet)

May I mention two or three other messages which seem no longer popular? One is to respect the Sabbath day. While the Savior himself cautioned against extreme forms of Sabbath day observance, it is well to remember whose day the Sabbath is. There seems to be an ever-increasing popularity in disregarding the centuries-old commandment to observe and respect the Sabbath day. For many it has become a holiday rather than a holy day of rest and sanctification. For some it is a day to shop and buy groceries. The decision of those who engage in shopping, sports, work, and recreation on the Sabbath day is their own, for which they alone bear responsibility. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - Unwanted Messages)

I think football qualifies as a "sport," don't you?

[applepansy]

Wingnut,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to find the quotes and post them. You're awesome.

applepansy

[Janice]

telling me watching sports on a Sunday is when you are completely focused on the Lord?

(sigh)

I never meant for this thread to be about TV or Sports on Sunday. If I had, I would have given it the title "TV and Sports on Sunday."

Janice

[Janice]

No, our leaders are not perfect. They are human, they make mistakes, but they have a stewardship to fulfill. That is between them and the Lord. They will be accountable to Him for how well they lead.

This is why I didn't raise my hand and offer a correction. I think it's why nobody did, even though lots of people were squirming.

We, on the other hand, will be accountable for how well we followed our leaders. If they are blatantly teaching false doctrine, then that is of great concern and we need to go to a higher authority and voice our concerns and then let it be handled in the proper way.

I am sure in this case, the proper people will follow up with the RS President. As 2nd Councilor it Young Woman's it's not my place.

I am not sure how much I agree with the statement "We will be accountable for how well we followed our leaders." I think we also have an obligation to personally seek a conformation and a testimony of what they are saying on our own as well.

Blind Obedience in grown adults makes me very, very nervous.

Janice

Edited February 4, 2009 by Janice

[Janice]

If I may throw my opinion into this, I think the key word here is suggestion. To me, this means that Elder Benson is offering various methods he uses to fulfill the abstract requirement of keeping the sabbath day holy. I don't think Elder Benson is trying to say that these are the only right answers, or that no other answers are valid, but that these are just some ideas. Your mileage may vary, as they say.

So, with regards the the OP, I think your RS president should have been more clear that what she said was a suggestion, not a commandment, but regardless it's a good suggestion.

Agree 100%. Thank you.

[Wingnut]

My previous quotes were found with a cursory search using the word "sports." Doing a little more research, I did in fact find an instance (over 10 years ago, in fact) where President Hinckley expressed sadness at how much football has taken over the Sabbath. He said it in Conference, no less.

And as we move forward into a wonderful future, there are what some may regard as the lesser commandments but which are also of such tremendous importance.

I mention the Sabbath day. The Sabbath of the Lord is becoming the play day of the people. It is a day of golf and football on television, of buying and selling in our stores and markets. Are we moving to mainstream America as some observers believe? In this I fear we are. What a telling thing it is to see the parking lots of the markets filled on Sunday in communities that are predominately LDS.

Our strength for the future, our resolution to grow the Church across the world, will be weakened if we violate the will of the Lord in this important matter. He has so very clearly spoken anciently and again in modern revelation. We cannot disregard with impunity that which He has said. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - Look to the Future)

Another Conference reference (but not from President Hinckley):

If you are not keeping the Sabbath day holy, repent and start doing it. If you are not truthful, repent and start telling the truth. If you are not honoring your parents, repent and start honoring your parents. If you are worshipping false gods—such as football, baseball, golf, tennis, or money or technology or automobiles or houses or gold or silver—and you can tell what a man worships by what he does on Sunday—repent and start worshipping the true and living God, the maker of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Resurrection)

[Janice]

Unless it comes from the General Relief Society Presidency or a Seventy, right? Only if it comes directly from the Prophet or an Apostle? That is what you were saying here, here, and here, isn't it?

No no and no.

Wing, why do i find your posts combative and contentious and condescending? I don't even like reading them. Apple and I also don't seem to see eye to eye, but at least I feel like we can be civil to each other.

[Janice]

My previous quotes were found with a cursory search using the word "sports."

Please. Enough about sports. Go up a few posts and see what I said about the title of this thread.

[Wingnut]

By default, I tend to agree with and live by everything that comes out of SLC.

Unless it comes from the General Relief Society Presidency or a Seventy, right? Only if it comes directly from the Prophet or an Apostle? That is what you were saying here, here, and here, isn't it?

No no and no.

Wing, why do i find your posts combative and contentious and condescending? I don't even like reading them. Apple and I also don't seem to see eye to eye, but at least I feel like we can be civil to each other.

Look, I don't want to get hung up on this, but you really need to figure out your story and get it straight. I'll admit that I stretched your words on my third link, so I won't contest it, but here is what YOU wrote on the first two:

Originally Posted by Janice

I'd like to see a quote from an apostle, if possible. Everything else, in by book, is just advice.

Originally Posted by applepansy

Are you excluding talks from the Young Women's Presidency then?

Originally Posted by Janice

As soon as they have the title Prophet, Seer and Revelatory, then I will regard what they teach us as scripture.