Through HIM all things were made.

[LittleNipper]

John 1:3

Through HIM all things made; without HIM nothing was made that was made.

Colossians 1:16

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisable, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by HIM.

So GOD created time, space and matter.

[BenRaines]

Who would you define as HIM? God, The Father? Jesus Christ, His Son?

Ben Raines

[Elgama]

my thoughts when reading it were and the point of the post is??

-Charley

[FunkyTown]

You make a good point, LittleNipper. Let's look at the meaning. What's the Hebrew word for create in the sense of a potter working with clay? What's the hebrew word for creation out of nothing? Is there a difference in the two words? What is the sense of this creation in the language in which it was written?

Actually, I would recommend reading "Commentary on the Torah" by Richard Elliott Friedman. He's a Jewish scholar and the head of Jewish Studies at NYU.

[Guest tomk]

John 1:3

Through HIM all things made; without HIM nothing was made that was made.

Colossians 1:16

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisable, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by HIM.

So GOD created time, space and matter.

I look at it more as God obeys eternal law and organizes the matter that is already available.

From D&C 93:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Intelligence -- was not created or made. We are organized intelligences. God did not create us. He organized us. So God did not create all things.

Abr. 3: 22

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

Going back to D&C 93:

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Not only did God not create us, He cannot force us to do His will, otherwise there would be no existence. God cannot just do whatever He wants. He must work within the framework of eternal law.

[LittleNipper]

Who would you define as HIM? God, The Father? Jesus Christ, His Son?

Ben Raines

Them together one GOD

[FunkyTown]

Them together one GOD

Since it's clear that you're here with the intention of attacking, then not answering serious questions in response, I believe it's time to show a picture of a cat in a Best Buy Uniform!

[Elgama]

ugh how many times do we wish we had a laugh button - OK now I get the purpose of the thread.

So OK LittleNipper define God? if I don't know what kind of view you have of our God I can't understand where you are coming from? or is it you that has an issue with those scriptures - I don't, perhaps you are suggesting we need to be LDS to understand them:)

-Charley

[LittleNipper]

I look at it more as God obeys eternal law and organizes the matter that is already available.

From D&C 93:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Intelligence -- was not created or made. We are organized intelligences. God did not create us. He organized us. So God did not create all things.

Abr. 3: 22

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

Going back to D&C 93:

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Not only did God not create us, He cannot force us to do His will, otherwise there would be no existence. God cannot just do whatever He wants. He must work within the framework of eternal law.

I would agree that GOD cannot sin. So clearly GOD cannot do everything. GOD is LOVE, so that would indicate to me that what GOD does is out of LOVE and HIS expression of LOVE towards those that love HIM.

As for the verses you quoted, unfortunately they contradict the HOLY scriptures I already presented. Or at lest your interpretation of said writings. I see GOD as Triune. That said the use of the term "THEM" is not out of order. One GOD and essence that has eternally been manifested in three distinct persons.

GOD said let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness. This appears in Genesis at the very beginning of scripture. We can also read that the SPIRIT hovered over the waters. So clearly it would seem that the third personage of the GODHEAD was present at creation and had a part to play in it. We can also read that CHRIST, who is the WORD was GOD and with GOD, and also created everything (John 1:1-4).

This would indicate that these three personages are interconnected so perfectly as to respond, act, ineract, create, etc., as one essence GOD. This is how I as a christian read the Bible.

I'm sorry if anyone was offended by my former response. I was presented with short questions and tried to give a short response. GOD is a THEM to me. GOD comprised of an invisable FATHER (director), a form assuming SON (who does the legwork and interacts face to face with humans), and the HOLY SPIRIT (who is a motivational force, COMFORTER). Together THEY are GOD.

Again I'm sorry, but my reason for starting this thread was because this was coming up in another thread and seemed to be disrupting it.

Edited February 6, 2009 by LittleNipper

[BenRaines]

Please take no offense as I intend none.

You view then, if I understand correctly, is that GOD is a team of sorts. God, The Father, Director, The Son, mortal essence of The Son and Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, but they are all GOD. Is that a correct understanding?

Ben Raines

[Elgama]

I would agree that GOD cannot sin.

I do not agree there is a world of difference between not sinning and not being able to sin. I do not believe for one moment that God is incapable of sinning.

-Charley

[Elgama]

I

I'm sorry if anyone was offended by my former response. I was presented with short questions and tried to give a short response. GOD is a THEM to me. GOD comprised of an invisable FATHER (director), a form assuming SON (who does the legwork and interacts face to face with humans), and the HOLY SPIRIT (who is a motivational force, COMFORTER). Together THEY are GOD.

Again I'm sorry, but my reason for starting this thread was because this was coming up in another thread and seemed to be disrupting it.

ok sorry i was so abrupt but could not understand the point of the scipture

Anyway take out the word invisible and I as a Latter Day Saint I agree with your definition of GOD as the term is usually used in the scriptures.

-Charley

[Maxel]

LittleNipper-

Are you LDS? If so, you seem to believe in the ancient Creeds' philosophy and reject Mormon scripture. If not, why does it say you are on your profile?

As for answering your question, FunkyTown hinted at the real answer:

You make a good point, LittleNipper. Let's look at the meaning. What's the Hebrew word for create in the sense of a potter working with clay? What's the hebrew word for creation out of nothing? Is there a difference in the two words? What is the sense of this creation in the language in which it was written?

Actually, I would recommend reading "Commentary on the Torah" by Richard Elliott Friedman. He's a Jewish scholar and the head of Jewish Studies at NYU.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Maxel
Clarification

[prospectmom]

Yawn, groan and moan... here we go again so many words so little said or accomplished... no offence

[LittleNipper]

Please take no offense as I intend none.

You view then, if I understand correctly, is that GOD is a team of sorts. God, The Father, Director, The Son, mortal essence of The Son and Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, but they are all GOD. Is that a correct understanding?

Ben Raines

Sir,

None was taken. I realize that the understanding of GOD is not at all easy. I certainly do not claim to be an expert. I realize that one would have to be GOD in order to fully understand GOD.

I'm not sure if team is the right term, but it works. One must understand that simply because CHRIST does the FATHER's will and sends the HOLY SPIRIT, does not mean that such an association means one being has less athority than another. GOD is perfection and the association is perfection.

Where I find fault with your understanding of what I stated is with the SON being a mortal. CHRIST took on a human form and became a man, but his existance is far beyond a mere mortal. Lets say the CHRIST is the face of GOD. HE is the visible for the invisible. When Adam walked with GOD in the cool of the day, I would suggest that likely Adam was walking with CHRIST HIMSELF. The Moses was hid in the rock and saw the back or GOD, he likely saw CHRIST walk by.

When GOD says that no one has seen GOD and lived, I gather that to mean that only a portion of the ENTIRE GOD was revealed --- namely not all three TOGETHER...

[Dr T]

I do not agree there is a world of difference between not sinning and not being able to sin. I do not believe for one moment that God is incapable of sinning.

-Charley

Why Charley? The Bible tell us that God cannot sin and we can see there are many things that God cannot do. If it's against Gpd's nature why would u see that as a problem? It's not a limitation it just becomes and aburdity.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Actually...this is sounding less like a Trinitarian beliefe, and more like modalism. Modalism is a common view held by Christians who do not fully understand the Nicene, Athanasian or other creeds. Indeed, modalism was declared heretical by the early churches.

[Traveler]

.......

As for the verses you quoted, unfortunately they contradict the HOLY scriptures I already presented. Or at lest your interpretation of said writings. I see GOD as Triune. That said the use of the term "THEM" is not out of order. One GOD and essence that has eternally been manifested in three distinct persons.

........

I am not sure I understand you - please answer this question to clarify to me what you are saying - to you is Jesus Christ (the Son) a person or a G-d?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Sir,

None was taken. I realize that the understanding of GOD is not at all easy. I certainly do not claim to be an expert. I realize that one would have to be GOD in order to fully understand GOD.

...

Again I do not understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that G-d cannot give "Whole" understanding of himself to man? I assume from you statement that you are not "one" with G-d nor do you ever intend to be unless you become G-d.

The Traveler

[Maxel]

LittleNipper, I'm reading through your posts and trying to make sense out of what exactly you believe. It sounds Trinitarian to me, but something seems slightly different- that might account for YoungMormonRoyalist's assessment of your views closely resembling modalism.

In any event, it's clear your views do not reflect LDS viewpoint, as you state that LDS scripture 'contradict the HOLY scriptures' and you hold belief in a Triune God. May I ask why, then, your religion is listed as 'Mormon / LDS / Christian'? I originally went to your profile to see if knowing more of your background information could help me understand your beliefs; I am surprised to find that you listed yourself as LDS. Now, my curiosity is piqued and I am more confused.

As for furthering the conversation, I don't see much more that can be said... You hold to the idea of ex nihilo and we don't; we both cite scriptures from our religion's canon and you reject ours on grounds that it clashes with your own understanding of the Bible, we reject yours on grounds that it clashes with what we believe to be revealed doctrine- what more can we say?

Edited February 9, 2009 by Maxel

[LittleNipper]

LittleNipper-

Are you LDS? If so, you seem to believe in the ancient Creeds' philosophy and reject Mormon scripture. If not, why does it say you are on your profile?

As for answering your question, FunkyTown hinted at the real answer:

Sorry, for any misunderstanding. I'm not a LDS. And I do not know how to fix my profile at this time. I'm a present day saint, evangelical, Bible believing, born again, independent, fundamentalist, christian. There I think that covers everything. I guess it push came to shove I'm a Baptist of sorts, Prebyterian of a kind, Methodist of historic proportions...

[LittleNipper]

I am not sure I understand you - please answer this question to clarify to me what you are saying - to you is Jesus Christ (the Son) a person or a G-d?

The Traveler

JESUS CHRIST was that part of the GODHEAD who emptied HIMSELF to take on a humanity. JESUS healed, calmed storms, etc., etc., etc., HE was GOD but had chosen to limit himself and placed HIMSELF in subjection to the FATHER. This HE did to be human while visiting earth...

[LittleNipper]

Again I do not understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that G-d cannot give "Whole" understanding of himself to man? I assume from you statement that you are not "one" with G-d nor do you ever intend to be unless you become G-d.

The Traveler

JESUS said HE is GOD's son. That is something HE is and I can only be by adoption. JESUE also said HE is the I AM. That is something I can never be...

[LittleNipper]

LittleNipper, I'm reading through your posts and trying to make sense out of what exactly you believe. It sounds Trinitarian to me, but something seems slightly different- that might account for YoungMormonRoyalist's assessment of your views closely resembling modalism.

In any event, it's clear your views do not reflect LDS viewpoint, as you state that LDS scripture 'contradict the HOLY scriptures' and you hold belief in a Triune God. May I ask why, then, your religion is listed as 'Mormon / LDS / Christian'? I originally went to your profile to see if knowing more of your background information could help me understand your beliefs; I am surprised to find that you listed yourself as LDS. Now, my curiosity is piqued and I am more confused.

As for furthering the conversation, I don't see much more that can be said... You hold to the idea of ex nihilo and we don't; we both cite scriptures from our religion's canon and you reject ours on grounds that it clashes with your own understanding of the Bible, we reject yours on grounds that it clashes with what we believe to be revealed doctrine- what more can we say?

I don't know how that happened. I said I was evengelical and that is not what I see in my profile... How does one change it?

[LittleWyvern]

I don't know how that happened. I said I was evengelical and that is not what I see in my profile... How does one change it?

Near the top left of the page, click "User CP." From that page, click "Edit Details." From there you can change the value in the Religion box. Once you've selected the right one, be sure to go to the bottom of the page and click "Save." :)